The usual culprit...Daemons

[march10k]

I'm just out of ideas...I've been playing IG for over 15 years, from back in 3rd edition when they were just plain terrible. I think they're acknowledged as a potentially overpowered army now, but DoC make a mockery of the guard, just like they do everyone else. It's like Daemons are the US military, and every other codex is the African nation of your choice. Compared to daemons, I'm not sure any other book deserves the term "army."

I used to think that it was just the problem of Malefic Daemonology being overpowered. That lore is broken, but it's not really at the root of the problem. I played in a small tournament over the weekend (low turnout, they planned for 64, but...) that banned Malefic Daemonology. One of my opponents ran daemons. He tabled me. I didn't table anyone, but I did come in second behind him, miles ahead of the rest of the field, dominating every game, with only one drawn tertiary objective outside of the daemon game. He was one three possible points short of perfect, failing to table only one of his opponents. WITHOUT DAEMONOLOGY. The only reason he wasn't perfect was that getting even a single troops choice below 50% health cost you a point every game...and his squishy pink warp charge batteries were a bit hard to keep on the table.

So what killed me? shrouded maulerfiends hauling butt into ruins on turn one to set up for a turn two charge...

Invisible horde of hounds spreading out so far that they could charge anything they wanted, "only" have about half the horde close enough to fight, while the rest are still strung out a foot away threatening to charge pretty much half the board. I kid you not. The turn after the hounds killed the wyverns on top of my skyshield at the back of my deployment zone, the very next turn, they killed my hellhound at the back of HIS deployment zone... Two targets 36" apart killed in back to back turns...and invisible, so you can't do anything to them.

In the end, I killed his four troops choices and one maulerfiend, but only because I rushed up both flanks with hellhounds and empty chimeras while he was busy killing my tanks in the center...and with thirteen tanks not participating in the double envelopment, I was able to get off enough shots to bring down one of his walkers in the time that it took him to kill them all. One of three...two maulerfiends and one slaneeshi melee soulgrinder.

Obviously, it didn't help that he went first and we were set up on the long board edges. In the next round, it was short edges, I would have had another turn of shooting before losing my tanks. In fact, going first on short edges, if he didn't get his walkers shrouded and into ruins, I would easily have been able to kill the walkers before he could get across the board. That wouldn't help me deal with 19 invisible puppies, though...

I just don't know what to do at this point. If I play a fun list in casual play, I'll probably win against anything but daemons 2/3 of the time....and 0% of the time against daemons. In fact, the only time I haven't lost to daemons in 7th edition is when my shadowsword flipped over and blew up on top of my opponent's relic bearer on turn five, upon which the game ended before his 2500 points (having started the game with 1850) stood by helplessly as my two remaining models laughed...because the game ended in a draw, my first blood to his linebreaker...I had pask and a techpriest left alive. But in a competitive setting, even with daemonology banned, when I'm ROFLstomping everything but daemons, and daemons are tabling me and everyone else? There's something wrong

[Thoqqu]

My usual answer to everything is deathstrike but invisibility is not on that list. So I suggest volume of fire in the form of fliers.

Vultures and valkyries. Not just a few, take several.

3 twinlinked punisher gatling cannons will make short work of those puppies, invisible or not.

[WarriorFish]

I've not fought the current daemons and likely never will, so I'm not able to offer much help here. Would it be better to try and shut down the psychic powers? Maybe a Culexus could prove useful somehow? If it's just the certain builds/tricks they can pull then perhaps that should be where to direct your attentions?

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Wish I could help, but as someone who (a) has never played daemons, and (b ) has yet to win a game in 7th, I cannot.

 

I do find this thread a bit ironic though, since the daemon players on the Astronomi-con mailing list tend to complain about how much their army book sucks, and if there even was a daemon army at Astro 2014, it didn't place even remotely near the top. The top 10 armies were solidly dominated by Tau and Eldar with maybe some Marine-type stuff. The guy who took first overall curb-stomped everyone with a fairly standard Tau Broadsides and Riptide list. So just from my own personal experience I'm surprised to hear about daemons being so dominant. I guess people up here in Canada just haven't figured out how to use them!

 

What in particular is causing you problems? Are they frying you with psychic stuff? What killed all your tanks? Shooting or close combat stuff?

[Kilofix]

Daemons are really not better than other fast moving close combat lists like Tyranids, ThunderWolves or Scar Bikes, etc.

 

Hounds are Beasts but otherwise their stats are not that special WS5 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 5++.

 

A bunch of Hellhounds should still have a full turn of shooting (in Turn 1) before they close combat you. Also use Ignores Cover (Ignore Shrouded) Orders to Las Cannon the Mauler.

 

 

But the real problem is Invisibility. I've had other lists like Invisible Deathwing Knights, Invisible Grey Knights, even Invisible Assault Marines (like with Tiggy) decimate me too.

 

I think the only thing to do against that kind of cheese is - invest in a Culexus model.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Agree with the above, a Culexis will really neuter their Psychic shenanigans. Getting Invisibility out of the game with her nullifying their Psykers will go a long way towards helping you out. She'll also likely do well in CC against the right targets. Sadly Invisibility makes this list damn tough. I agree on using Fire On My Target on Las/Autocannons to negate the Maulerfiend's Cover. As the Fiends are AV12 IIRC, Autocannons will probably be more reliable and will be handy against other targets as well. 

 

I have a friend who runs a damn nasty Slaaneshi Daemons list, and it's always in my face turn 2. For 3 turns in a row, he rolled Warp Surge one game, and coupled with Cursed Earth on a flying Daemon Princess, had the core of his charging army rocking a 3++. That was brutal for my poor Guardsmen.

[march10k]

Yes, invisibility is the real problem...the maulerfiends' 2+ cover save on turn one was coincidental, not something he relies on.  Although, when he casually thew out the interpretation that all of the terrain except the forests should be treated as ruins (pre-game), I agreed without thinking.  The "ruins" in question were the crashed aquilla lander, and I made the further mistake of not remembering that he still needed to qualify for 25% obscuration to claim the save...so he bamboozled me in the first place, and then cheated on top...it was the last round, I was tired, or I would have shut down both halves of that gambit!

 

In any case, invisible hounds are not "no better than other fast close combat lists!"  With a herald of khorne on a jugger to back them, they have 20 bike bases with rage and hatred, not to mention the beasts rule, ignoring terrain for purposes of movement.  Make them invisible, and they monkey-stomp anything wounds-based, as well as any vehicle that doesn't have at least AV12 on the back (although the herald can handle AV12 rears) at a rate of 2-3 units per turn...make them invisible, and there is no way to deal with them short of an AV13 walker (daemons can't "our weapons are useless," so they're stuck like Chuck)

 

I do see the potential of an assassin...the question, since I haven't examined the new assassin rules that closely, is whether said assassin can assassinate a flying psychic warlord?  If so, I'm gonna hurry up with my GK libby and 5 strikes, then add said assassin, and go get me some revenge...

 

I don't think even flying twinlinked punisher cannons are the answer to invisible puppies...each one is going to get about six hits...three wounds...1.5 models down...out of 20 models.  They'll eat everything on the ground (which won't be much, with that many vultures up) before you get done killing them, especially with the help of the two maulers and the grinder.  OTOH, the vultures would rip apart his flying caster and potentially be able to deal with his pair of hellturkeys (did I mention those?  LOL)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I do see the potential of an assassin...the question, since I haven't examined the new assassin rules that closely, is whether said assassin can assassinate a flying psychic warlord?  If so, I'm gonna hurry up with my GK libby and 5 strikes, then add said assassin, and go get me some revenge...

 

They're no longer in the Grey Knights Codex, they come in a Dataslate. On the good side, this means you don't need to field any additional units, simply Ally in the Assassin you need. The bad news is that it'll cost you extra if your procure it through legal means. Costs less than a new Grey Knights Codex, though.

 

An Assassin won't bring down a Flier, but given how Psychic-reliant Daemon shooting is, it'll render it irrelevant in the battle at large. 

[Kilofix]

Against a flyer I would invest in a Firestorm Redoubt. It would cost about the same as the opposing flyer and it would also shelter some of your troops. Culexus cant fire effectively on the flyer but would still negate invis to allow the Redoubt to hit it.

 

 

You could then also add barbed wire for some lucky hits and it will slow down the Herald's charge move.

 

Yet another option is to Thunderblitz or Tank Shock the Hounds to buy time to fire on them.

 

 

Edit - theres actually one other option. Conscript line and Karamazov. Have the Consripts engage the Hounds then have K drop an Orbital on them which does not scatter and can be done while they are in CC.  Use the Psyk Out version  against  the psychic DP.

[hornywingythingy]

What was your list?