Units and Factions

[Gentlemanloser]

What Faction is a Unit of?

 

Quite a simple question, but ICs confuse this issue.

 

First of all, a Warlord Trait that relates to Units by their Faction;

 

 

 

In addition, if a friendly unit with the Space Wolves Faction is within 12"

 

What is a unit? (Page 9)

 

 

 

The models that makeup your <snip> army must be organised into 'units'

 

So every model is either a unit in their own right, or part of a unit.

 

 

 

A unit usual consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, <snip> is also considered to be a unit in it's own right

 

OK.  And we know that (Page 118) the Faction of a 'unit' is the same as the Codex it is taken from, or in the case of a supplement, that supplements Parent Codex.

 

For the Warlord Trait above, it would be obvious that a unit of Grey Hunters is of Faction: Space Wolves and would therefore trigger that trait (ignoring that they would gain no benefit from it, as they aren't Beasts/Cavalry.  That's a non issue here).

 

What happens if the unit of Grey Hunters is joined by an IC of another Faction?  For example a Grey Knight Grand Master.

 

We know that when an IC joins a unit (Page 166) they "count as part of the unit for all rules purposes".

 

Does this include Faction?

 

Basically, for the Warlord Trait given at the start of this topic, out of the three units below, which if any satisfy the "unit with the Space Wolves Faction" requirement?

 

 

1: A unit of Space Wolves Grey Hunters with an attached Grey Knight Grand Master

 

2: A unit of Grey Knight Strike Squad with an attached Space Wolf Rune Priest

 

3: A unit comprised of a Grey Knight Grand Master attached to a Space Wolf Rune Priest

 

 

In a related question, if an IC counts as part of the Faction of the unit it has joined "for all rules purposes", then does it stop counting as a member of it's *own* faction?  Would it lose access to any Rules and Abilities of it's original Faction?  Would it then be an illegible unit for it's original Detachment?

 

Or does the IC belong to two Factions?  Is that even possible?

 

[Frater Cornelius]

I would consider Grey Hunter + GKGM a Space Wolf unit because the attached IC is counted as part of the unit for all rule purposes (page 166). So the GH unit, that just so happened to contain a burly Knight, is still a Space Wolf unit. When you have unit effects like Ragnar Blackmane's War Howl (wording: [...] all model with the Space Wolves faction in his unit [...]), it would exclude the GKGM because on a model-by-model basis he is still a GK.

However, if you take global effects like the Saga of Majesty (wording: [...] all units with the Space Wolves Faction [...]), they would take the GH unit as a point of reference, which is a Space Wolves unit. The GKGM does not remove their status as a SW unit and he himself is part of the unit for all rule purposes. This means that the GKGM must reroll failed morale tests as long as he is part of the GH unit.

However, if the effect would say "all units that consist entirely of models with the Space Wolves faction", then it would exclude the GH + GKGM unit since on a model-by-model basis the GKGM is still a GK.

 

Same logic can be used with a GK IC and SW IC are joined. That unit would a Space Wolves faction unit and a Grey Knight faction unit and global effects like SoM would affect them but War Howl would not.

 

So you really have to look at the wording of the individual rules and see if it targets just the unit or if it goes on a model-by-model basis.

 

That's just my humble opinion.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

When you have unit effects like Ragnar Blackmane's War Howl (wording: [...] all model with the Space Wolves faction in his unit [...]), it would exclude the GKGM because on a model-by-model basis he is still a GK.

 

Why, when the GK is a Space Wolf for all rules purposes?

[Brother Casman]

I'm reasonably sure that a unit never loses its Faction, so I don't think the Faction can get replaced. I can see the argument for having multiple factions, but I think the easiest thing would be to leave the factions as is. In the case of mixed units, like the Space Wolf/Grey Knight examples above, I would consider only the Grey Hunters/Rune Priest to be of the Space Wolf Faction, so only they would benefit from the warlord trait or whatever. The attached Grey Knights do not. If this results in the Space Wolf unit gaining a benefit it cannot use, due to the presence of the Grey Knights, then they're out of luck.

[Gentlemanloser]

In your eyes would all of the combined units above satisfy the "unit with the Space Wolf Faction" restriction?

 

Or are they no longer a unit with the Space Wolf Faction as there are members with the Grey Knight faction in the unit?

 

If they don't satisfy the restriction, would the unit then lose access to any Detachment Command Benefit?

 

If it was a unit of Grey Hunters from a Space Wolf CAD, would the unit lose Objective Secured, because of the attached GK IC?

 

Edit;

 

Page 118 complicates maters more.

 

 

 

no unit can belong to more than one detachment

 

Which detachment do any of the three example combined units above belong to? (For clarification, lets assume the Space Wolfs are from a CAD and the GK from a Nemesis Strikeforce)

[Frater Cornelius]

 

When you have unit effects like Ragnar Blackmane's War Howl (wording: [...] all model with the Space Wolves faction in his unit [...]), it would exclude the GKGM because on a model-by-model basis he is still a GK.

 

Why, when the GK is a Space Wolf for all rules purposes?

 

 

This matters when the entire unit is subject to an effect, not individual models within a unit. The 'part of the unit' part in this case only means that he is taken into consideration when applying the War Howl effect. This does not imply that he will get it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Basically you're saying that for War Howl;

 

 

 

all model with the Space Wolves faction in his unit

 

An attached GK IC doesn't have the Space Wolf Faction.

 

If he doesn't have the Space Wolf Faction, then he shouldn't benefit from anything that selects Faction as a trigger.

 

And if he doesn't have the Space Wolf Faction, he's not part of the unit for all rules purposes.

 

(For complete transparency, this is a topic for discussion only.  I do not think there is an answer that can be reached here.  This is an area of the rules that is not covered, and is a *massive* hole.  Only GW themselves can fix this.)

[Frater Cornelius]

Basically you're saying that for War Howl;

 

 

 

all model with the Space Wolves faction in his unit

 

An attached GK IC doesn't have the Space Wolf Faction.

 

If he doesn't have the Space Wolf Faction, then he shouldn't benefit from anything that selects Faction as a trigger.

 

And if he doesn't have the Space Wolf Faction, he's not part of the unit for all rules purposes.

 

(For complete transparency, this is a topic for discussion only.  I do not think there is an answer that can be reached here.  This is an area of the rules that is not covered, and is a *massive* hole.  Only GW themselves can fix this.)

 

Not quite. Let me go into more detail.

 

War Howl:

 

1. Is Ragnar attached to a unit?

Yes. Move to point 2.

No. Only he benefits from War Howl.

 

2. Check every individual model.

Is it SW faction?

Yes. It benefits from War Howl.

No. It does not benefit from War Howl.

 

Now let's do Saga of Majesty:

 

1. Is there a unit within 12"?

Yes. Move to point 2.

No. No other units can benefit from it.

 

2. Check if the unit (not the individual models) is SW faction.

Yes. The unit benefits from SoM.

No. The unit does not benefit from SoM.

 

Why does that work with SoM but not with WH? Because SoM check the unit, which is still GH as the GKGM counts as part of the unit.

WH checks individual models within a unit (GKGM is part of the unit and as such qualifies to be checked). As individuals all models keep their faction. On a global scale, the faction of an IC is overwritten by the unit's faction for effects that target entire units (not models), unless stated that the entire unit must consist of the same faction.

[Gentlemanloser]

Next, what happens with the two IC unit?

 

The Rune Priest becomes part of the unit for all rules purposes as does the GKGM.  Does the unit, when checked at unit level and not member level count as a Space Wolf Faction unit, Grey Knight Faction unit or both?

 

Is it a choice made on the active players turn?

[Frater Cornelius]

Next, what happens with the two IC unit?

 

The Rune Priest becomes part of the unit for all rules purposes as does the GKGM.  Does the unit, when checked at unit level and not member level count as a Space Wolf Faction unit, Grey Knight Faction unit or both?

 

Is it a choice made on the active players turn?

 

This is much more tricky. I think that it matters who joined whom. It is the same issue with IC and MC. An IC can not join an MC, but an MC IC could could join a unit or another IC because it is the MC that does the joining, not the other IC, thus this move is legal.

 

I would apply that logic to the RP and GKGM scenario. You have to announce who joins whom. That choice stays relevant until the unit is disbanded. If RP join GKGM, then it becomes a GK faction unit for global effects that do not require all models to be the same faction. If the GKGM joins the RP, then it is a SW faction unit. When were talking about individual models like with War Howl, the order of joining is not relevant.

This would also explain why always the unit's faction is chosen when regarding GKGM joining a GH unit. The IC joins the unit, it's not the unit that joins the IC. Thus the one joining has to 'bow' to the parent faction.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thing is, you only have to declare what unit is joining what when there are multiple choices for an IC to join.

 

If it's just two ICs that end movement within coherency, they just automatically join, without any declaration.

[Frater Cornelius]

Thing is, you only have to declare what unit is joining what when there are multiple choices for an IC to join.

 

If it's just two ICs that end movement within coherency, they just automatically join, without any declaration.

 

Hm, in that case. Let me think...

 

I would still regard the 'parent unit' as the dominant one. But if the two are automatically joined without any indication of who joined whom, then I would have to be lazy and say that the unit counts as both factions seeing as there can not be a dominant one, thus benefiting from global effects that do not require the whole unit to be one faction. This is still irrelevant for model based effects.

This is the only logical think I can think about because a unit can not lose it's faction, it can only be suppressed. If there is not indication of who is the parent faction when joining, both factions are equally dominant. Thus effects that do not demand exclusivity can benefit the unit.

It is words like 'exclusively' and 'only <any given factions>' that you need to look out for in these cases.

 

This is borderline rule bending what I am doing here but this is the conclusion I have come to.

[Brother Casman]

In your eyes would all of the combined units above satisfy the "unit with the Space Wolf Faction" restriction?

 

Yes, assuming that you're breaking it down fine-grained: the Space Wolves have the Space Wolf Faction and the Grey Knights have the Grey Knight Faction.

 

Or are they no longer a unit with the Space Wolf Faction as there are members with the Grey Knight faction in the unit?

 

Nope, see above.

 

If they don't satisfy the restriction, would the unit then lose access to any Detachment Command Benefit?

 

If it was a unit of Grey Hunters from a Space Wolf CAD, would the unit lose Objective Secured, because of the attached GK IC?

 

Edit;

 

Page 118 complicates maters more.

 

no unit can belong to more than one detachment

Which detachment do any of the three example combined units above belong to? (For clarification, lets assume the Space Wolfs are from a CAD and the GK from a Nemesis Strikeforce)

Well, also from page 118: A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army[...] So, taking these two rules together, your Space Wolves are all in the CAD and have Faction: Space Wolf. Likewise, your Grey Knights are all in the NSD and have Faction: Grey Knight. Adding a Grand Master to a Grey Hunter squad changes neither unit's Faction or Detachment. Further, it is possible that an Independent Character could have different special rules from the squad it's joined to (as described on page 166). I would consider things like Command Benefits/Warlord Traits/Faction to be "special rules" for these purposes. So, the Grey Hunters would retain Objective Secured.

 

Do note I've written all of the above with an eye to the box out on page 14: ...the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game. I really don't think the line about ICs being "part of a unit for all rules purposes" is as broad as you seem to make it out to be.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, I'm not sure you can get any broader than "for all rules purposes". ;)  It's not 'some' or 'most'. :P

 

 

 

Well, also from page 118: A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army[...]

 

I'm pretty sure that's just referencing the choice between Battle Forged and Unbound.

 

 

 

Yes, assuming that you're breaking it down fine-grained: the Space Wolves have the Space Wolf Faction and the Grey Knights have the Grey Knight Faction.

 

Conversely then, would all three units also satisfy any requirement that wanted Faction: Grey Knights?

[Brother Casman]

Well, I'm not sure you can get any broader than "for all rules purposes". ;) It's not 'some' or 'most'. :P

 

Well, also from page 118: A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army[...]

I'm pretty sure that's just referencing the choice between Battle Forged and Unbound.

[...]

Keep reading that paragraph - the very next line states: ... some special rules will apply only to specific Factions. Further, the IC rules also state that a unit's special rules are not conferred to the IC unless the rule says so, and vice versa.

 

Taken all together this implies to me that units do not change Factions regardless of how they are mixed. Moreover, the models that have Faction: Space Wolves benefit from the Faction: Space Wolves rules and do not gain the Faction: Grey Knights rules - the reverse applies for models that have Faction: Grey Knights.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Keep reading that paragraph - the very next line states: ... some special rules will apply only to specific Factions. Further, the IC rules also state that a unit's special rules are not conferred to the IC unless the rule says so, and vice versa.

 

Yes, this is rather the point of the thread.

 

Special rules like the Space Wolf ones, Bangels FnP, GK Rites of Teleportation, Tiggy's reserve rerolls, all apply to 'units' of a specific Faction.

 

Taken all together this implies to me that units do not change Factions regardless of how they are mixed. Moreover, the models that have Faction: Space Wolves benefit from the Faction: Space Wolves rules and do not gain the Faction: Grey Knights rules - the reverse applies for models that have Faction: Grey Knights.         

 

 

What about rules that apply to 'units' as a whole and not individual members of a unit?

 

Is a Unit made up of Multiple Factions locked out of Special rules that target a single Faction?

 

For example, can Tigiruis use his Reserve reroll on a combined unit made up of Faction: Space Marines and Faction: Space Wolves?  It is Faction Sapce Marine, so qualifies, but has members that are of a different Faction.

 

What happens here?

 

For the Blood Angels, is they include a Grey Knight in a Squad, does the whole squad, only the Bangel members, or none of them, benefit from a Sanguinary Priests FnP?

[Jolemai]

Only Blood Angels and successors are affected by Sanguinary Priests. Not only is this written in our FAQ but you already know the answer, so why use it in your argument?

[Gentlemanloser]

Only those with Faction: Blood Angels are effected.

 

If a non Blood Angel IC joins a Blood Angel unit "for *all* rules purposes", shouldn't they then count as Faction: Blood Angels, and therefore get the benefit from FnP?

 

If they don't count as Faction: Blood Angels, is that unit still a Faction: Blood Angel unit?  As it now contains non Faction: Blood Angel minis.

 

If it *isn't* a Faction: Blood Angel unit, then *none* of the unit now benefit from FnP.

 

FnP from a S Priest checks at the unit level, much like the Space Wolf rules.

 

So what Faction does that combined unit come from, and does it, or does it not satisfy the requirements for FnP?

[Jolemai]

Fine, I'll play.

 

Only those with Faction: Blood Angels are effected.

 

Previously, it said that it was all friendly BA units. Essentially, this is the same thing (bear with me).

 

If a non Blood Angel IC joins a Blood Angel unit "for *all* rules purposes", shouldn't they then count as Faction: Blood Angels, and therefore get the benefit from FnP?

 

A non-BA IC will not gain FC and FnP from a Sanguinary Priest because they are not "a friendly Blood Angel unit". The Priest buff has a 6" radius so it doesn't matter if the model is 0-6" away, it doesn't benefit as it's not eligible.

 

If they don't count as Faction: Blood Angels, is that unit still a Faction: Blood Angel unit?  As it now contains non Faction: Blood Angel minis.

 

Faction: BA is anything found within C:BA or from an Imperial Armour book/dataslate that allows you to pick a model/unit as if it were part of that Codex. Simply put, in the case above you have two factions within one unit that share universal special rules (where allowed) but not faction special rules.

 

If it *isn't* a Faction: Blood Angel unit, then *none* of the unit now benefit from FnP.

 

See above.

 

FnP from a S Priest checks at the unit level, much like the Space Wolf rules.

 

Incorrect, see above

 

So what Faction does that combined unit come from, and does it, or does it not satisfy the requirements for FnP?

 

See above.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

A non-BA IC will not gain FC and FnP from a Sanguinary Priest because they are not "a friendly Blood Angel unit".

 

What you are saying is that an attached IC doesn't 'count-as' Faction Blood Angels.

 

Doesn't that go counter to the "all rules purposes" cluase of the IC rules?

 

 

 

 in the case above you have two factions within one unit

 

Units are only allowed to belong to a single Detachment.  A Blood Angel CAD only allows models with Faction: Blood Angels.

 

If the unit is made up of multiple Factions, is must also belong to Multiple Detachments.

 

Which it's not allowed to do.

 

 

Basically, your stance is that a unit comprised of multiple factions would satisfy any Faction specific requirement a special rule has.

 

Let's bounce this over to Rites of Teleportation (a recent hot topic in the GK subforum).

 

Would a Blood Angel Unit with an attached GK IC be eligable for Rites of Teleportation?

[Jolemai]

 

A non-BA IC will not gain FC and FnP from a Sanguinary Priest because they are not "a friendly Blood Angel unit".

 

What you are saying is that an attached IC doesn't 'count-as' Faction Blood Angels.

 

Doesn't that go counter to the "all rules purposes" cluase of the IC rules?

 

Not at all. I would suggest re-reading the part on "Special rules" under the IC section as it's clear that rules not intended for them don't confer and vica versa.

 

 in the case above you have two factions within one unit

 

Units are only allowed to belong to a single Detachment.  A Blood Angel CAD only allows models with Faction: Blood Angels.

 

If the unit is made up of multiple Factions, is must also belong to Multiple Detachments.

 

Which it's not allowed to do.

 

Incorrect. At the list building stage, it is one faction. However, from Deployment onwards, using the rules for Battle Brothers, you then attach ICs.

 

Basically, your stance is that a unit comprised of multiple factions would satisfy any Faction specific requirement a special rule has.

 

Let's bounce this over to Rites of Teleportation (a recent hot topic in the GK subforum).

 

Would a Blood Angel Unit with an attached GK IC be eligable for Rites of Teleportation?

 

Currently unable to answer that question.

 

What are you trying to achieve with this thread?

[Gentlemanloser]

What are you trying to achieve with this thread?

 

As above;

 

 

 

For complete transparency, this is a topic for discussion only.  I do not think there is an answer that can be reached here.  This is an area of the rules that is not covered, and is a *massive* hole.  Only GW themselves can fix this

 

 

 

Not at all. I would suggest re-reading the part on "Special rules" under the IC section as it's clear that rules not intended for them don't confer and vica versa.

 

Faction isn't a Special rule govenerend by the ICs rule on Special Rules.

 

 

 

Incorrect. At the list building stage, it is one faction. However, from Deployment onwards, using the rules for Battle Brothers, you then attach ICs.

 

Detachment Restrictions only exist at the list building stage?

[Jolemai]

 

What are you trying to achieve with this thread?

 

As above;

 

 

 

For complete transparency, this is a topic for discussion only.  I do not think there is an answer that can be reached here.  This is an area of the rules that is not covered, and is a *massive* hole.  Only GW themselves can fix this

 

 

 

Not at all. I would suggest re-reading the part on "Special rules" under the IC section as it's clear that rules not intended for them don't confer and vica versa.

 

Faction isn't a Special rule govenerend by the ICs rule on Special Rules.

 

I never said it was. However, the rules specific to said faction are. The quote the relevant part:

 

 

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified by the rules itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

 

BA specific rules will not confer onto an Ultramarine's IC and vica versa. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

 

Incorrect. At the list building stage, it is one faction. However, from Deployment onwards, using the rules for Battle Brothers, you then attach ICs.

 

Detachment Restrictions only exist at the list building stage?

 

Seeing how you only combine the unit from Deployment onwards, then yes. Prior to deployment, there are no concerns.

 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

BA specific rules will not confer onto an Ultramarine's IC and vica versa. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

There's two issues here.

 

1: A BA specific Unit rule won't apply to *any* IC.  Including a BA IC that joins a unit.  As the unit rule doesn't transfer to *any* attached IC, as the rule doesn't say it does.

 

2: It's not that the Unit rule doesn't transfer to an attached IC, but that a none BA IC doesn't qualify.

 

Number 2 goes back to the whle 'counts as' a Blood Angel or not.

 

If an UM IC counts as a Blood Angel, then a unit wide rule should transfer to him anyway.  As he's both a unit, part of a unit and a Blood Angel.

 

If the reason the UM doesn't get the rule is only becuase he doesn't count as a BA, then it's not an issue about rules transfering to ICs or not.

[Jolemai]

 

BA specific rules will not confer onto an Ultramarine's IC and vica versa. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

There's two issues here.

 

1: A BA specific Unit rule won't apply to *any* IC.  Including a BA IC that joins a unit.  As the unit rule doesn't transfer to *any* attached IC, as the rule doesn't say it does.

 

Invalid argument as a BA IC already has that rule.

 

2: It's not that the Unit rule doesn't transfer to an attached IC, but that a none BA IC doesn't qualify.

 

Number 2 goes back to the whle 'counts as' a Blood Angel or not.

 

If an UM IC counts as a Blood Angel, then a unit wide rule should transfer to him anyway.  As he's both a unit, part of a unit and a Blood Angel.

 

If the reason the UM doesn't get the rule is only becuase he doesn't count as a BA, then it's not an issue about rules transfering to ICs or not.

 

There is nothing to suggest that an Ultramarine IC could ever count as a BA IC, so invalid argument.

 

As already specified above, if a unit's special rule is eligible to spread to an attached IC it does, and vica versa. It it can not - such as a BA specific rule - then it does not.

 

I'm really unsure what you are trying to do with this thread and why it is still open.