Wish list for more diversity

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree that a simple price reduction for Terminators is the cleanest and simplest solution, but part of me rebels at the notion that Terminators, the Emperors finest troops encased in the most potent personal armour system in the galaxy, should be reduced to cheap-as-chips units just to make up for the fact that Plasma weapons are too common and too cheap.

 

Well plasma guns (or sun guns as they were known) date back to the Time of Strife, when Terra was ravaged by geno-wars and rogue psykers. Back then, boltguns were an effective way to slaughter geno-warriors, but against any kind of powered armour they are not as effective. Energy weapons let you cut through that plating, plus they vapourise flesh which is far more lethal. 

 

In terms of game balance, the trade-off is that most plasma weapons have 'Gets Hot!', so it can potentially kill the wielder. The real reason Termies are in such trouble is because GW have started handing out what are arguably super-heavy weapons on normal 40k units. Riptides should not have an AP2 large blast, neither should Wraithknights have two S10 AP2 blasts. Plasma guns and plasma cannons are fine, its absurd long-range AP2 that can also have Interceptor which ruins Terminators. 

 

Without AP2 options, Termies become far too powerful. 

And I know this may seem weird... But I want my paladins to he 50/60pts base. But I want then to have all the bells and whistles. Better invun, higher mastery level, better powers, free nemesis weapons, maybe some cool rules ect. 

 

Paladins just need a price reduction. I think they're fine as the 'elite swordmasters' unit of the Chapter, as a counterpart to the 'purest of pure spirit' unit that Purifers represent (as such Purifiers are no better than a normal Terminator in melee, but they are better at casting their signature power 'Cleansing Flame'). If Paladins came down to 40ppm and gained Eternal Warrior, there wouldn't be an issue. 

[Warboss dakka slugga]

 

I agree that a simple price reduction for Terminators is the cleanest and simplest solution, but part of me rebels at the notion that Terminators, the Emperors finest troops encased in the most potent personal armour system in the galaxy, should be reduced to cheap-as-chips units just to make up for the fact that Plasma weapons are too common and too cheap.

 

Well plasma guns (or sun guns as they were known) date back to the Time of Strife, when Terra was ravaged by geno-wars and rogue psykers. Back then, boltguns were an effective way to slaughter geno-warriors, but against any kind of powered armour they are not as effective. Energy weapons let you cut through that plating, plus they vapourise flesh which is far more lethal.

 

In terms of game balance, the trade-off is that most plasma weapons have 'Gets Hot!', so it can potentially kill the wielder. The real reason Termies are in such trouble is because GW have started handing out what are arguably super-heavy weapons on normal 40k units. Riptides should not have an AP2 large blast, neither should Wraithknights have two S10 AP2 blasts. Plasma guns and plasma cannons are fine, its absurd long-range AP2 that can also have Interceptor which ruins Terminators.

 

Without AP2 options, Termies become far too powerful.

And I know this may seem weird... But I want my paladins to he 50/60pts base. But I want then to have all the bells and whistles. Better invun, higher mastery level, better powers, free nemesis weapons, maybe some cool rules ect.

 

Paladins just need a price reduction. I think they're fine as the 'elite swordmasters' unit of the Chapter, as a counterpart to the 'purest of pure spirit' unit that Purifers represent (as such Purifiers are no better than a normal Terminator in melee, but they are better at casting their signature power 'Cleansing Flame'). If Paladins came down to 40ppm and gained Eternal Warrior, there wouldn't be an issue.

 

They would be the same price as a vanilla marine terminator then so you'd essentially get an extra wound, ws and immune to instant death, this is a problem, their price mark is justified if you compare statline to your normal terminator in the dex

[Shadrach03]

So I've thought a lot about Paladins and was wondering why we really need a unit of expensive multiwound terminators that without a change like t5 or EW (which would make me wonder why the hqs dont get the same rules) are even necessary. I'm thinking that the unit of paladins get reworked in a different way.

 

Every infantry unit in the book may purchase 1 paladin to add to the unit for 50 points(may purchase a special weapon)

 

Adding a paladin to the unit can take it over the max size of 10 models

 

Paladins are characters once again

 

Add the Sanctuary power to paladins

 

Adding a paladin to a squad adds 1 to their mastery level (termies + paladin go to mastery 2 with sanctuary)

 

Bro capt., GM, Librarians may purchase 2 paladins (1 of these may buy special weapons) that are permanently attached to them

 

Bro capt., Gm, Libby may upgrade the second paladin to an apothecary for 15 points

 

Paladins bought for hqs have the brotherhood of psykers so they still generate a single warp charge but don't give the hq an artificial mastery increase that would make them gain more powers.  But it would still give access to sanctuary for almost all of our units without having to fish for it or break psychic focus on hqs.

 

Thoughts??

[Quozzo]

So I've thought a lot about Paladins and was wondering why we really need a unit of expensive multiwound terminators that without a change like t5 or EW (which would make me wonder why the hqs dont get the same rules) are even necessary. I'm thinking that the unit of paladins get reworked in a different way.

 

Every infantry unit in the book may purchase 1 paladin to add to the unit for 50 points(may purchase a special weapon)

 

Adding a paladin to the unit can take it over the max size of 10 models

 

Paladins are characters once again

 

Add the Sanctuary power to paladins

 

Adding a paladin to a squad adds 1 to their mastery level (termies + paladin go to mastery 2 with sanctuary)

 

Bro capt., GM, Librarians may purchase 2 paladins (1 of these may buy special weapons) that are permanently attached to them

 

Bro capt., Gm, Libby may upgrade the second paladin to an apothecary for 15 points

 

Paladins bought for hqs have the brotherhood of psykers so they still generate a single warp charge but don't give the hq an artificial mastery increase that would make them gain more powers.  But it would still give access to sanctuary for almost all of our units without having to fish for it or break psychic focus on hqs.

 

Thoughts??

TBH. I like the idea. Ha dsomething similar for my DIY Ghost Knights dataslate (yup, i was thinking ghost knight pallies, original I know). But GK squads are psychically attuned to one another so no battle-brothers would be joined to the squad on an ad-hoc bases that would affect said said squad like BoP. If the pallies were an IC of sorts, similar perhaps to the bro-champ but in TDA then mechanically that would be the same (including the extra warp charge). Including them in the FoC is another matter.

[Adeptus]

Make TDA a 1+ Save.

 

Saves still fail on the roll of a 1.  Except now the Plasma Reactor Suits Tactical Dreadnought Armour get a 2+ save versus Plasma Guns.

 

Meltas still melt TDA.

 

(This would be an across the board change)

 

That, or allow all TDA to reroll failed saves.

I like the idea, but it also affects things that really SHOULD be able to break Terminator armour, like Thunderhammers or Lascannons.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't think there would be too many issues with making both AP1. ;)

 

Melta still has the Melta rule to distinguish.  And now there's Grav to go alongside Las, upping Lascannons to AP1 wouldn't break anything.

[Shadrach03]

So I'll say that the paladin is a character with mastery level 1 and knows the banishment, hammer handand sanctuary powers.

 

My thought is that if the paladins are bodyguards for high ranking grey knights why not extend that to be protectors of the chapters most valuable resource, manpower.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

They would be the same price as a vanilla marine terminator then so you'd essentially get an extra wound, ws and immune to instant death, this is a problem, their price mark is justified if you compare statline to your normal terminator in the dex 

 

Well in conjunction I'd see vanilla Terminators (including ours) come down to 30pts each. That way Paladins being 40pts would be justifiable. 

So I've thought a lot about Paladins and was wondering why we really need a unit of expensive multiwound terminators that without a change like t5 or EW (which would make me wonder why the hqs dont get the same rules) are even necessary. I'm thinking that the unit of paladins get reworked in a different way.

 

Every infantry unit in the book may purchase 1 paladin to add to the unit for 50 points(may purchase a special weapon)

 

Adding a paladin to the unit can take it over the max size of 10 models

 

Paladins are characters once again

 

Add the Sanctuary power to paladins

 

Adding a paladin to a squad adds 1 to their mastery level (termies + paladin go to mastery 2 with sanctuary)

 

Bro capt., GM, Librarians may purchase 2 paladins (1 of these may buy special weapons) that are permanently attached to them

 

Bro capt., Gm, Libby may upgrade the second paladin to an apothecary for 15 points

 

Paladins bought for hqs have the brotherhood of psykers so they still generate a single warp charge but don't give the hq an artificial mastery increase that would make them gain more powers.  But it would still give access to sanctuary for almost all of our units without having to fish for it or break psychic focus on hqs.

 

Thoughts??

 

But that doesn't make any sense. Paladins do not fight embedded in squads, they're not Wolf Guard. Their primary focus is either as elite guardians of the Chapter-Fortress (they guard many of the internal gates), or as bodyguards to the officers of the Chapter. They can also be called to fight as a single entity by the Supreme Grandmaster, to give the Chapter a potent brotherhood of the best warriors the Chapter has. They don't hone their psychic prowess, they hone their martial ability. What you're designing is a kind of mini-Librarian that attaches to squads. I'd say our Librarians are cheap enough to be taken in multiples if need be. 

 

2+ saves are fine if AP2 is made expensive or with drawbacks to mitigate its power. Plasma can't touch higher AV, it usually has Gets Hot!, and its either shorter-range or requires setup (plasma guns and plasma cannons respectively). GW need to stop giving xenos long-range AP2 blast weapons. 

[Malicth]

 

 

2+ saves are fine if AP2 is made expensive or with drawbacks to mitigate its power. Plasma can't touch higher AV, it usually has Gets Hot!, and its either shorter-range or requires setup (plasma guns and plasma cannons respectively). GW need to stop giving xenos long-range AP2 blast weapons.

 

This right here yes. AP2 weapons have gotten way to out of hand in my opinion. AP 2 to me are suppose to be the very rare weapons you hardly ever see and AP 1 should be a relic type weapon so usually only 1 in each army.

[Captain Coolpants]

 

They would be the same price as a vanilla marine terminator then so you'd essentially get an extra wound, ws and immune to instant death, this is a problem, their price mark is justified if you compare statline to your normal terminator in the dex

 

Well in conjunction I'd see vanilla Terminators (including ours) come down to 30pts each. That way Paladins being 40pts would be justifiable.

So I've thought a lot about Paladins and was wondering why we really need a unit of expensive multiwound terminators that without a change like t5 or EW (which would make me wonder why the hqs dont get the same rules) are even necessary. I'm thinking that the unit of paladins get reworked in a different way.

Every infantry unit in the book may purchase 1 paladin to add to the unit for 50 points(may purchase a special weapon)

Adding a paladin to the unit can take it over the max size of 10 models

Paladins are characters once again

Add the Sanctuary power to paladins

Adding a paladin to a squad adds 1 to their mastery level (termies + paladin go to mastery 2 with sanctuary)

Bro capt., GM, Librarians may purchase 2 paladins (1 of these may buy special weapons) that are permanently attached to them

Bro capt., Gm, Libby may upgrade the second paladin to an apothecary for 15 points

Paladins bought for hqs have the brotherhood of psykers so they still generate a single warp charge but don't give the hq an artificial mastery increase that would make them gain more powers. But it would still give access to sanctuary for almost all of our units without having to fish for it or break psychic focus on hqs.

Thoughts??

 

But that doesn't make any sense. Paladins do not fight embedded in squads, they're not Wolf Guard. Their primary focus is either as elite guardians of the Chapter-Fortress (they guard many of the internal gates), or as bodyguards to the officers of the Chapter. They can also be called to fight as a single entity by the Supreme Grandmaster, to give the Chapter a potent brotherhood of the best warriors the Chapter has. They don't hone their psychic prowess, they hone their martial ability. What you're designing is a kind of mini-Librarian that attaches to squads. I'd say our Librarians are cheap enough to be taken in multiples if need be.

 

2+ saves are fine if AP2 is made expensive or with drawbacks to mitigate its power. Plasma can't touch higher AV, it usually has Gets Hot!, and its either shorter-range or requires setup (plasma guns and plasma cannons respectively). GW need to stop giving xenos long-range AP2 blast weapons.

Although it doesn't make sense now, it's not like it can't ever make sense. I mean, GW have made farrrrr larger retcons in their time, one of them including us already with the removal of the inquisition.

 

But on a whole it probably wouldn't be for the best, because space wolves would then lose some of their flavour then.

[Happy-inquisitor]

So I've thought a lot about Paladins and was wondering why we really need a unit of expensive multiwound terminators that without a change like t5 or EW (which would make me wonder why the hqs dont get the same rules) are even necessary. I'm thinking that the unit of paladins get reworked in a different way.

 

Every infantry unit in the book may purchase 1 paladin to add to the unit for 50 points(may purchase a special weapon)

 

Adding a paladin to the unit can take it over the max size of 10 models

 

Paladins are characters once again

 

Add the Sanctuary power to paladins

 

Adding a paladin to a squad adds 1 to their mastery level (termies + paladin go to mastery 2 with sanctuary)

 

Bro capt., GM, Librarians may purchase 2 paladins (1 of these may buy special weapons) that are permanently attached to them

 

Bro capt., Gm, Libby may upgrade the second paladin to an apothecary for 15 points

 

Paladins bought for hqs have the brotherhood of psykers so they still generate a single warp charge but don't give the hq an artificial mastery increase that would make them gain more powers. But it would still give access to sanctuary for almost all of our units without having to fish for it or break psychic focus on hqs.

 

Thoughts??

I like the gist of this. How about paladins as upgrades to captain or master - always staying with the HQ but not counting as a unit much the same way that drones work with Tau commanders. Just one for a captain, up to 3 for a grand master.

[Quozzo]

But what about the Draigo-wing. I'd like at least the option to have multiple paladins with one/two ICs.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unbound. :)

 

It's a legitimate style of play, and allows any 'wing' you'd want to run.

[Adeptus]

This right here yes. AP2 weapons have gotten way to out of hand in my opinion. AP 2 to me are suppose to be the very rare weapons you hardly ever see and AP 1 should be a relic type weapon so usually only 1 in each army.

I think you should have to make a meaningful choice when you are selecting weapons. High rate of fire OR decent AP OR decent anti-tank.

 

You should never be able to combine the ability to hit lots of models AND kill models easily, unless there are significant drawbacks. You certainly shouldn't be able to combine that with interceptor. Anything AP2 should be a single shot, not rapid fire or multiple shots. And if they DO have the ability to hit multiple models a turn, they need to be either very short range or very expensive. You shouldn't be able to pick one weapon and have it cover MOST of your bases. You should have to make a meaningful choice between tackling hordes and tackling vehicles and tackling elite infantry, currently plasma weapons (and their xenos equivalents) effectively tackle both horde infantry and elite infantry, and even let you tackle light vehicles if they feel so inclined. A weapon that versatile really needs a significant points hike.

 

No one complains about Demolisher cannons, because despite being a S10 AP2 pie plate, they have a cripplingly short range. This is how things should be. A strength balanced out by a weakness, or at least priced appropriately, which doesn't seem to be the case currently.

 

Terminators should be rock-hard elite units, with a significant price tag but capable of significant feats on the table-top. The idea of cutting them down to 30 points and having them die like Guardsmen doesn't sit well with me.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

2+ saves are fine if AP2 is made expensive or with drawbacks to mitigate its power. Plasma can't touch higher AV, it usually has Gets Hot!, and its either shorter-range or requires setup (plasma guns and plasma cannons respectively). GW need to stop giving xenos long-range AP2 blast weapons.

 

This right here yes. AP2 weapons have gotten way to out of hand in my opinion. AP 2 to me are suppose to be the very rare weapons you hardly ever see and AP 1 should be a relic type weapon so usually only 1 in each army.

 

 

 

Take away power fists, plasma weapons and melta and then MC like Dreadknights and Riptides would be pretty much unstoppable. That looks like far too high a price to pay to try to make terminators more special on the table, its not likely to be more terminators (or broadsides, or whatever) that players would be choosing to take advantage of such a change.

[Quozzo]

Most weapons are either multiple shots or high strength and low AP. There are very few weapons that are high strength and High AP to tackle heavy infantry without affecting vehicles unless it's accompanied by a special rule like poisoned.

 

I wouldn't mind facing AP2 blast weapons if they cost a premium, but this game has lost any sense of balance. Riptides, Wave Serpents and... Nemesis Dreadknights are all too good for their price, not because of their rules, but because of the weapons they can pack.

[Gentlemanloser]

You don't need high S to tackle heavy infantry.

 

Long ago I expressed the concenr about weapon having high APs also having high Strengths.

 

Where are the S4, AP2 weapons that can kill TDA, but couldn't penetrate the front armour of a Rhino?

 

And the S10, AP- weapons design to destroy vehicles, but do little to infantry?

[Zembar]

I'm more confused about the bit where AP doesn't have anything to do with penetrating vehicle armour.

 

But I digress.

[Gentlemanloser]

 Any system that uses both Strength and Armour Penetration doesn't make sense (see SLA Industries.  A Str 10 / AP 10 weapon would do 10 damage against Armour 10.  A Strength 20 / AP 0 weapon would do 10 damage against Armour 10.  You would think the S10/AP10 weapon 'better', but versus zero armour it does 10 damage.  While the S20 weapon does 20 damage...)

 

The 'strength' or force of an attack is what punctures armour anyway.

 

You're much better off with a system that uses a single value for 'force' but somehow modifers the armour/protection a unit has.  Like 'Armour Peircing' rounds half the armour rating (or double the force...).  Even additions/subtractions causes issues, becuase you'd be better off just upping the 'force'.

 

40k gets round this somewhat.  Making AP only really relevant for infantry, and tacking on a bonus for AP1 facing vehicles.  But then AP1 is meaningless for Infantry, so it might just as well be scrapped, and a specific rule for Vehicle Damage Tables added.

 

AP1 would have meaning if we had any Armour Saves of 1+.  As it is, it does nothing when facing Infantry that AP2 doesn't.

 

Consider the following weapons ranges;

 

S10, AP6

S10, AP5

S10, AP4

S10, AP3

 

You would expect the last one, S10, AP3 to have more 'penetrating power' and be better destorying vehicles.

 

But it's effectivly exactly the same as the S10, AP6 weapon.

 

Except it murders infantry better.