IA13: Dedicated Transport Dreadclaws, and More!

[Cheex]

Yes, because in the C: AM, you have the option to take the squads as individual squads or platoons. In IA13 you don't have that option. All Renegade Infantry Squads must be taken as platoons. And platoons, as you just said, are supposed to act as a single, cohesive unit. Meaning, that following the line of deductive reasoning that platoons are to act as a single unit, a Renegade Infantry Platoon is not only a single Troops Choice, but a single unit made up of smaller sub-units.

I'm going to assume you don't own the AM codex, or at least aren't actively referring to it right now, because that's not how AM or platoons work at all.

 

They cannot purchase individual squads as Troops (except Veterans). Normal AM Infantry Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Conscripts MUST be taken as part of a Platoon. The rulebook states that each part of a group like a platoon acts as separate units. They do not act as a single unit together, except for very specific circumstances as explained in the rulebook.

 

AM are special in that their Infantry Squads have the "Combined Squad" special rule that allows you to band them together during deployment if you choose, like a reverse Combat Squad rule.

 

Or is that all wrong because the Renegade Infantry Squads do not have a Combined Squads rule even though they cannot be taken as individual squads?

Precisely. You purchase Renegade Infantry Squads as part of a platoon, but each squad still acts independently of each other. There is no rule, inference or suggestion that they should (or are allowed to) act as a single squad.

[RolandTHTG]

But by the rules, at least one squad is different, being designated a platoon command squad and being led by a demagogue. Combining squads is only allowed because the AM Infantry squads have the Combined Squads rule. No one talks about combinbing Heavy Weapons squads in a Heavy Weapons platoon or combining squads in a Scions platoon, because the units don't have the rule. When you buy a unit, it is separate from all other units, even others in the same Force org slot. The AM Infantry Squad has a specific unit with a specific rule that allows this to be overcome. Nothing else allows this. 

[Nehekhare]

this discussion is based exclusively on kol's lack of knowledge of the rules, so why even bother?

[Cheex]

this discussion is based exclusively on kol's lack of knowledge of the rules, so why even bother?

In the interest of education - both for Kol's benefit, and so other readers in this thread who might not know how AM work don't misunderstand the discussion here.

That's my motivation, at least

[Sheesh Mode]

oh thats the list from 4chan lel

can't blob renegade infantry, so get mutants (khorne, enforcer+drugs) while keeping your infantry in the backyard with plas/AC/militia, forget the morale/covenant crap, maybe ADL

use vindicator models to proxy real ordinance

if you want to outflank, put your slaanesh lord on a fiend for 100% outflank (he can join the mutants because covenant of khorne isn't a mark), get fearless mutants as a bonus

and give him fist/claw/sigil/slaughterers horns/daemonheart for pete's sake!

*tips fedora*

Moral is going to be bloody annoying. Having any advantage we can get to make our leadership higher than 7 takes some doing. It is a real possibility that large portions of our army will simply run off the field from suffering a few units of fire.

There is no rule, inference or suggestion that they should (or are allowed to) act as a single squad.

That is what I thought.

Then, with the understanding that we are running cheaper, less disciplined infantry that operate in a similar manner to Imperial Guard with a preference to close combat how are we going to take the fight to the enemy? We don't have assault transports. Mutants are useful tarpitters, but little more than that, and we risk leaving our artillery exposed by attempting to close with the enemy. Certainly it's nice when they come to us (Spacemarines) but most armies will do that on their terms if deployed correctly or not at all.

Furthermore, our potentially low leadership is going to make our artillery more fragile to enemy fire. If a squad runs away because of a bad moral check we lose the artillery piece. It might just be best to go all out armor.

[Cheex]

The impression I got from reading the R&H list is that it's about running big blocks of dudes at the enemy as a distraction from the real hard hitters, the artillery. The infantry won't do much damage, but your opponent may have a hard time breaking through all of them to get to your backfield.

 

I do feel like the list is overall weaker than AM, especially when you start piling on the upgrades, but if you can keep them as cheap as possible then they might still work. I think they shine best as allies to CSM and Daemons, personally - either as an Allied Detachment or as a separate CAD.

[Sheesh Mode]

I agree. They seem to be 'more versatile' cultists to me. 

[sishuttleworth]

Does anyone else have the codex? I am looking at it right now and thinking it lends itself incredibly well to mob assaults. The Master of the Horde with his 5+ "Send in the Next Wave" and the Mutant Over Lord who's troops can potentially outflank with 50 models is definitely an impressive and intimidating prospect. 

 

For example:

Chaos Lord - Mark of Slaanesh - Powersword[/size]Noise Marines - (5) 3 Sonic Blasters - 1 Blast Master[/size]Noise Marines - (5) 3 Sonic Blasters - 1 Blast Master[/size]Noise Marines - (5) 3 Sonic Blasters - 1 Blast Master[/size]Vindicator - Siege Shield[/size]Vindicator - Siege Shield[/size]Vindicator - Siege Shield[/size]Arch Demagogue/Master of Hordes - (4 disciples) - Command Net Vox - Banner of Hate - Plasma[/size]+ Chimera x2 Heavy Flamer[/size]Infantry platoon[/size]Command squad - 30 - Demagogue/Poweraxe - x3 Flamer - Vox - Chaos Sigil - Chaos Covenant (slaanesh)[/size]Infantry Squad - 30 - Champ/Poweraxe - x3 Flamer - Vox - Chaos Sigil - Chaos Covenenant (Slaanesh)[/size]Infantry Squad - 30 - Champ/Poweraxe - x3 Flamer - Vox - Chaos Sigil - Chaos Covenenant (Slaanesh)[/size]Infantry platoon[/size]Command squad - 30 - Demagogue/Poweraxe - x3 Flamer - Vox - Chaos Sigil - Chaos Covenant (slaanesh)[/size]Infantry Squad - 30 - Champ/Poweraxe - x3 Flamer - Vox - Chaos Sigil - Chaos Covenenant (Slaanesh)[/size]Infantry Squad - 30 - Champ/Poweraxe - x3 Flamer - Vox - Chaos Sigil - Chaos Covenenant (Slaanesh)[/size]1997[/size]Just drive forward with 180 bodies with fleet backed by 3 s10 ordnance weapons.[/size]

 

Not certain, but I think if you take Master of the Horde (or any other devotion), then R and H need to be your primary detachment, as the arch-heretic has to be your warlord.

[Sheesh Mode]

You are correct sir. Back to the drawing board. 

[RolandTHTG]

I think the big tool for leadership is really the Enforcers and the Chaos SIgils. Enforcers are near-Comissars (+1 LD to the squad and shoot a guy to reroll LD. The fact that they don't shoot the squad champ is nice) while Chaos Sigils allow you to ignore the first failed LD (is it phase or turn, can someone check?) 
Chaos Sigils take a special weapon slot, so they're best in large squads, and both can be sniped out, but I think those are the best ways to manage leadership. 

[Sheesh Mode]

They are the best ways to manage leadership. It is simply expensive in large numbers. Chaos sigils allow you to ignore the first failed leadership test per turn, which is great for it's cost. The issue is that I keep feeling like this book wants me to field huge hordes of infantry backed by artillery which exposes them to no end of firepower. 

 

Oh well. I've thrown astartes into the meat grinder to win games before, I'll happily do it with humans.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

Not certain, but I think if you take Master of the Horde (or any other devotion), then R and H need to be your primary detachment, as the arch-heretic has to be your warlord.

 

 

Hope that is clarified in the FAQ whenever it comes out, it's a conflict of rulebook rules vs codex rules so one has to take president. 

 

Sigil lets you ignore the first failed leadership test each turn, so that combined with enforcers should do the trick of keeping your units in line along with the banner of hate. Also if you have say two platoon plus your command squad, that's three separate units with a net command vox, all with the fanatic rule so three chances to get a unit with good leadership that can pass it on to all units with 12". The random LD can be bad, but we have the tools to manage it. 

 

If you don't want to expose hordes to firepower, you could go all mech R&H. Six squads in chimeras to fill up troops, 9 tanks from your heavy support squads, chimera command squad then you have fast attack sentinels and hell hound to fill up fast attack. That's going to leave you with nearly 20 tanks. 

[Sheesh Mode]

 

If you don't want to expose hordes to firepower, you could go all mech R&H. Six squads in chimeras to fill up troops, 9 tanks from your heavy support squads, chimera command squad then you have fast attack sentinels and hell hound to fill up fast attack. That's going to leave you with nearly 20 tanks. 

 

I've simply never been comfortable building an army around large groups of exposed infantry. Certainly I have no issue with utilizing mobs to distract the enemy and hold an objective, but the inherent fragility of infantry makes me hesitant. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well you could have them hold back behind cover instead of charging forward as a mob. One idea I had was a few squads of 20, two autocannons in each protecting my artillery behind them and they just sit back and shoot. Could even buy some fortifications if you feel you need them. However such a static line isn't really my play style so I doubt I'll actually be trying that out anytime soon..plus it would take some time to get 60-100 or so renegade guardsmen. 

[Nehekhare]

I'd argue that big units is exactly the opposite of what's intended with the renegade list: why else are 5 vets less pts per model than 10?

 

with infantry, you get 2 special weapons per 5, but only 1 weapons team total - so you field 3x10 with all the guns

 

use your command squad with fanatic and command vox, maaaaybe even the expensive banner of hate and morale won't be that bad. for melee blobs you have fearless CSM ICs.

[Lord Asvaldir]

You sure it's only one heavy weapon team per squad? I'm pretty sure it's one per 10, meaning a squad of 20 can take 2 so if you want the squad to sit backfield and guard and objective, they'll have a decent amount of firepower to add. 

 

While you certainly can fields lots of small squads, I'm not really sure why it's a bigger benefit then taking a few large squads of 20. Bigger squads means paying less pts for sigils/vox casters. 

[Castellan Cato]

I don't have my book with me to confirm, but I remember thinking that it was 2/3 the output of blob guard.  AM tactics usually put 3 10 mans together with 1 autocannons each = 30 men with 3 cannons.  IA13 can do 20 men with 2 cannons.  Theyre missing orders, but can potentially get "send in another wave" or FNP if theyre the primary army.

 

The book lends itself to large squads because the upgrades dont go up in price per model.  Sub-flak on 10 dudes is the same price as sub-flak on 20.

 

I'm still disappointed I can only run one squad of plague zombies.  They're much better in this book and could give some nice fearless backfield campers.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

The book lends itself to large squads because the upgrades dont go up in price per model.  Sub-flak on 10 dudes is the same price as sub-flak on 20.

 

 

Forgot about that, another big reason to run big squads opposed to more smaller squads. Especially if you want militia training (which you usually will), you're saving yourself a fair amount of pts by using big squads. 

[Nehekhare]

true about the weapon teams, but not about vox/sigils...because infantry squads have to pass on special weapons to get those (so never?).

 

2x10 guys shoot as much as 20, but you will loose only 10 once the enemy shoots back/assaults/you fail a leadership test.

 

militia training is the same cost as adding 1(!) veteran.

 

ALL of the other upgrades are simply not worth it (rather take 3 more guys), with the possible exeption of khorne for blob mutants.

 

really, if 6+ would be any good, orks would be winning tournaments. keeping renegades from dying is morally wrong and a sin against the gods of life expectancy.

[Sheesh Mode]

If renegades are going to sit behind cover and blast away they don't need armor. Anything that can ignore cover will also ignore a 6+, at that point the renegade is going to die. They are better off with a 6+ FNP from the Magus or Covenant of Nurgle. But the covenant of nurgle is expensive, especially in small squads, and the Magus only encourages spamming Decimators and Defilers. 

 

I'm all for themed lists, this book is full of those, but I don't think this is going to change the tournament meta much. That's fine, but I'd like to see how this army plays on the table. 

[Tenebris]

My only concern is money for to field a proper allied detachment of renegade guard I would need several tanks, artillery and at least 50 infantry models, if only the Chaos Marauder kit was anything good but it isn't and I am not that fond of the Vraksian Militia looks. Cultists are an answer but they are a boring thing to paint and assemble. 

[minionboy]

 

 

Not certain, but I think if you take Master of the Horde (or any other devotion), then R and H need to be your primary detachment, as the arch-heretic has to be your warlord.

 

 

Hope that is clarified in the FAQ whenever it comes out, it's a conflict of rulebook rules vs codex rules so one has to take president. 

 

Not really sure what needs to be clarified, the rules for the Devotions literally say that the model must be your warlord.

[Castellan Cato]

We keep comparing the book to C:AM, it looks bad when you do so.  We lose too much (orders, leadership, priests, etc) for too little gain.  Trying to make renegades into Imperial Guard costs a lot of points.  I think they did a good job making equally geared renengades cost about as much as standard guardsmen, but trying to fix the leadership problem is very costly.

 

This list is really just a way to get BB guard for chaos and daemons.  Both armies struggle to put boots on the ground.  For ~200 pts you can put what? About 60 bodies on the field?  Thats a heck of a lot to shoot through, low LD or not.  It's just a shame that not being the warlord nueters the character and choices of the army.

 

On a personal note: Im excited to try traitor "scions" with the bloody handed reaver. The infantry squads  turn out to be roughly the same cost as Scions with the same output sans orders.  They lose deep strike for the ability to take chimeras and tanks on the same detachment.  Seems "fun" and worth some play tests.

 

P.S. Losing a special for a sigil isnt THAT bad for a gunline squad.  Most lists ive seen/written forgo them anyway because they have much shorter range.

[RolandTHTG]

If anyone missed the special edition order, the standard edition is available for order
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_VOLUME_THIRTEEN_WAR_MACHINES_OF_THE_LOST_AND_THE_DAMNED.html

[Sheesh Mode]

The biggest issue  for me is that the Lost and Damned do not lend themselves well to my chosen tactic. Running Landraiders with elites inside followed by disposable infantry relies on either a multitude of infantry support or fearless models. It seems too expensive to have Marines as the primary.