New 'Dex Troop Choice Speculation?

[Zynk Kaladin]

So after YEARS of just playing either jump pack or podded ASM, I finally broke down up and got two las/plas razorbacks with two 5 man melta or flamer squads.  I'm in love.  I will be painting these goodies over a nice, long, Thanksgiving break.  Here are my questions:

 

1. I'm not 100% up to date in 7th, so my question is how do you think the BA 'dex will update our troop choices? 
2. Given updates to power armor armies so far, do you think the las/plas razor with 5 man squad still be a high-tier competitive troop choice? 
3. I also pray JP ASM will somehow be worth taking again so is there any indication this might happen?

 

Regardless of what happens with BA 7th, I'm happy to finally be adding some long overdue razors to my slow growing collection.

[incinerator950]

I'm sure you'll be able to use coffin mounts after your temporary alliance with the crons.

[Jorre]

The main reason BA assault squads work for us in razorbacks is the discounted 35 points we get for removing jump packs.

 

I am very hopeful they don't become more expensive, but I have doubts that they will still work the same way. No other space marine codex allows you to do this.

 

That said no other codex allows assault marines as troops.

 

Really we can only wait and see

[Bartali]

So after YEARS of just playing either jump pack or podded ASM, I finally broke down up and got two las/plas razorbacks with two 5 man melta or flamer squads.  I'm in love.  I will be painting these goodies over a nice, long, Thanksgiving break.  Here are my questions:

 

1. I'm not 100% up to date in 7th, so my question is how do you think the BA 'dex will update our troop choices? 
3. Given updates to power armor armies so far, do you think the las/plas razor with 5 man squad still be a high-tier competitive troop choice? 
5. I also pray JP ASM will somehow be worth taking again so is there any indication this might happen?

 

Regardless of what happens with BA 7th, I'm happy to finally be adding some long overdue razors to my slow growing collection.

 

I'd probably argue that ASM in Razorbacks aren't a high-tier competitive troops choice. Razorbacks fall over to Wave Serpents which are everywhere in tournaments at the moment. Cheap HB/HF Razors with ASM are ok for objectives, although I wouldn't take too many of them.

 

I'd expect Razorbacks to go up in price for the basic HB/HF one, with the cost of gun upgrades to come down. The basic SM Razorback is the same cost as our fast Razorback at the moment

 

Assault Marines well definately come down in price, at least to match the current SM ones.

 

What will be interesting is if we get to keep our dedicated transport Land Raiders. Or, if Stormravens become Dedicated Transports.

[Zynk Kaladin]

 

I'd probably argue that ASM in Razorbacks aren't a high-tier competitive troops choice. Razorbacks fall over to Wave Serpents which are everywhere in tournaments at the moment. Cheap HB/HF Razors with ASM are ok for objectives, although I wouldn't take too many of them.

 

True, "Top-tier" wasn't exactly the right word.  BAngel troop choices are kindof in a lull at the moment except for DC and it's been an interesting experience trying to make it work with what we got. 

 

I'll take the patient route and resume the holding pattern.

[Remtek]

Imo it's currently Pod>RB>Rhino>JP. As for upgrading the RB i'm kinda on the fence. I do enjoy las/plas in some games, but they start to become very expensive considering how fragile they are. 

[Shaezus]

Really can only speculate on troop choices in the new dex but as mentioned above our fast razorbacks are same price as the normal SM RB so a points spike here is likely, unless lucifer engines are made an optional upgrade. Maybe we will see assault squads come down to SM cost, but will they stay as troops? Fluff-wise it would be odd if they don't.

 

As mentioned above also the las-plas can be useful but they are very expensive for such a fragile unit - only 5 points less than the cost for 2 lascannons on a sicaran - and definitely not high-tier competitive. Probably one of the more low-tier choices in the game sadly. But their fast engines do give them something, so long as they stay alive for late-game objective grabbing. Kinda sucks that the most sensible thing to do is keep them out of harm's way, thus their contribution can be totally non-existent until turn 5. Think they're best off in a mech list.

 

Jump packs...so much depends on what we get for chapter and warlord traits and if the JP cost for death company and characters comes down. Even if we keep descent of angels, JPs won't be anymore competitive than they are unless some other things are tweaked too.

 

Ultimately, I can't see things getting much easier for us other than things becoming a bit cheaper in points.

[Morticon]

 

Ultimately, I can't see things getting much easier for us other than things becoming a bit cheaper in points.

 

At the risk of sounding like im a pessimist, i think this is the most important thing to take from any potential new release.

 

We are not going to get a power-dex.  My suspicion/hunch - they've been very good with GK, SW, Orks and DE in terms of this. I don't see a big difference for BA.

[TheSauce]

I agree, it'll probably just be a points decrease in some things, maybe a slight increase in other to bring us in line with generic SM. That said, my "normal" 1850 list with a librarian, ASM, Priest, Storm Raven and other goodies will easily go down 100 points, which is enough for extra goodies across the board, or another unit.

[Morticon]

That being said, if they do it right, it should open up a whole host of builds.  

If SG are 30 points a pop and can have more than 5, i may even take them. 

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Having seen the DE codex and the formation that allows them to take more FA options, I would love to see that more so than what troop choices we get. A BA formation with 5 or 6 Elite slots!!!

[SamaNagol]

There is a serious danger that the BA book ends up getting points reductions on things that no one will use. And you lose the ability to take the sort of things as Troops which make the book even remotely viable, which it isnt really at top tier.

 

If there is a way to make DSing jump packs loaded with melta more reliable, then that will be a thing.

 

I will wait and see. It's a coin toss.  They could do everything right. Reduce points on ASM, SG, DC JPs and Infernus Pistols, give us Bike Captains with Artificer, Keep cheap Raiders and the fast transports.

 

Or they could just make it bland, dull and unplayable as a standalone book like Grey Knights and Dark Eldar.

[Xenith]

To be honest, I do think that the BA dex is still awesome. Re-adjusting points to bring it in line with the SM codex, and usefulness in 7th ed, as per Mort, would make me very happy.

 

It's not been as massively overpowered as the 3rd ed codex/3rd ed ruleset

 

It's not been underpowered.

 

Give me C:SM priced jump packs (3-5pts/model) on asm, vanguard, death co, modify the cost of the HQ choices, give us a good warlord trait table and Chapter tactic and I'll be happy.

[Red-beard]

Or they could just make it bland, dull and unplayable as a standalone book like Grey Knights and Dark Eldar.

I played my first game against the new DE codex a few days ago and all I can say is WOW. The reports of the new DE codex being a giant nerf are GREATLY exaggerated.

My opponent brought an 1850 point army that contained 21 dark lances, a flyer, 4 deep striking haywire rifles, 2 vehicles that deep strike on turn 1 (like pods), and an HQ in a vehicle that deepstruck with no scatter. On top off all that, he had 5 venoms shooting a total of 60 poison shots. He also brought three units of CC infantry in assault vehicles. The list was flat out nasty. I hope the new BA codex is as good as the new DE codex.

Back on topic, I will agree with points made by previous posters that Razorbacks are not a competitive option. I think they are fun to play, but they are not competitive. I don't see this changing much in the new codex. I guess we'll find out soon.

[SamaNagol]

They've always been able to do that. They just didnt have the no scatter DS.

 

And if I remember correctly, the Ravager got more expensive.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Kindof off topic, but like all things, picking the optimum troop choice is usually determined by the rest of one's list.  I love Meph as much as the next guy, but I'm hoping our HQ choices will be a lot more diverse and useable than what we have now.  Fragiosos will definitly change and I fear for the worst.  I think only Baals, MM attack bikes, and Ravens will remiain constant.

 

 

If there is a way to make DSing jump packs loaded with melta more reliable, then that will be a thing.

 

Actually, I've had a lot of success with a 10 man assault squad with 2 meltas doing just that.  I combat squad them into a 5 man with x2 melta and a 5 man with sergeant.  The melta combat squad reliably comes on turn 2 and I usually park them 4" away from whatever I want to nuke.  I've found about 4" to be roughly the optimal distance to mitigate scatter.  I get 2 melta shots and a krak grenade which is plenty for taking out vehicles, MCs, or weakening heavy infantry.  Yea, they're a suicide squad, but that's where the other combat squad comes in.  I put the 5 man with sergeant in a raven for late game objective humping.

 

This is one of the most optimal uses I've found for JP assault marines supporting turn 1 fragiosos with dakka baal fire support.  Not the greatest in terms of troop choice and podded ASM are a bit better at the role but they get the job done while filling my JP love requirement.  If jump packs go down in cost I'd be pretty stoked.

 

I'd love to see Sang Guard either become more useful or go way down in cost.  If anything these guys need lances just for "rule of cool".

[SamaNagol]

I cant see Dreads changing at all tbh, they are really well balanced. I've never heard anyone complain in a competitive setting about any of them.  I can see DC ones coming from Elites, but not taking up a slot, rather than Troops as they are now and gaining Objective Secured for them and their drop pods.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I certainly hope our dreads, barring the DC dread situation you explained, remain the same because I like the way they play.  I've had a few people give mean looks to my fragiosos before.

[Bartali]

Really can only speculate on troop choices in the new dex but as mentioned above our fast razorbacks are same price as the normal SM RB so a points spike here is likely, unless lucifer engines are made an optional upgrade. Maybe we will see assault squads come down to SM cost, but will they stay as troops? Fluff-wise it would be odd if they don't.

 

As mentioned above also the las-plas can be useful but they are very expensive for such a fragile unit - only 5 points less than the cost for 2 lascannons on a sicaran - and definitely not high-tier competitive. Probably one of the more low-tier choices in the game sadly. But their fast engines do give them something, so long as they stay alive for late-game objective grabbing. Kinda sucks that the most sensible thing to do is keep them out of harm's way, thus their contribution can be totally non-existent until turn 5. Think they're best off in a mech list.

 

Jump packs...so much depends on what we get for chapter and warlord traits and if the JP cost for death company and characters comes down. Even if we keep descent of angels, JPs won't be anymore competitive than they are unless some other things are tweaked too.

 

Ultimately, I can't see things getting much easier for us other than things becoming a bit cheaper in points.

 

It depends on what missions you're playing. If your playing Maelstrom or tournament missions that have mid game objective scoring, then the hide the Razorback until turn 5 trick doesn't work.

 

If GW can drop Jumpers points (along with upgrades) and give them cheap access to FNP, they'll make a fine Obsec troop choice. Malestrom missions in 7th ed can get a lot more punchy around objectives, and require you to be mobile throughout the game. 

[Ovidius Incertus]

I don't forsee this being overly horrible and probably on the whole a boon to BA players.

 

One thing that's confusing/worrying me is, if C:BA gets a revised set of psychic powers, will it preclude access to the standard disciplines?  Mephiston without access to Biomancy would be a paradigm shift, unless the BA specific powers are tailored to keeping the beatstick alive and chopping.  Wings would be swell, but Iron Arm/Warp Speed just seems so much better.

 

I don't have my C:Eldar handy and don't have C:SW, so I can't check on this, but if your 'dex gets unique powers, do you lose access to the others?

 

I think the idea of making the Sanguinor a MC would be cool, if he's tweaked.  Despite his massive points cost and lower utility, he's a wonderfully fluffy unit like an Avatar, so I hope he finds his way into more armies.

[walpurgisnacht]

I put the 5 man with sergeant in a raven for late game objective humping.

 

Are they Emperors Children? Lol :P

 

I foresee that the sons of Sanguinius will keep assault marines as troops, but will lose the discount for the ride. They may be tall enough, but still have to pay full price for transports.

 

Personally, I want to keep the three land raiders I own solidly in the obsec troops choice. I agree that DC dreads will either leave the troops choice or become a formation.

[Bartali]

I don't forsee this being overly horrible and probably on the whole a boon to BA players.

 

One thing that's confusing/worrying me is, if C:BA gets a revised set of psychic powers, will it preclude access to the standard disciplines?  Mephiston without access to Biomancy would be a paradigm shift, unless the BA specific powers are tailored to keeping the beatstick alive and chopping.  Wings would be swell, but Iron Arm/Warp Speed just seems so much better.

 

I don't have my C:Eldar handy and don't have C:SW, so I can't check on this, but if your 'dex gets unique powers, do you lose access to the others?

 

I think the idea of making the Sanguinor a MC would be cool, if he's tweaked.  Despite his massive points cost and lower utility, he's a wonderfully fluffy unit like an Avatar, so I hope he finds his way into more armies.

 

Give me a back a fast Mephiston (and Libby Dread) any day. Biomancy is great, but all the best assault units in 40k are fast. 

 

I miss the days of Mephiston bossing the midfield with an 18-24" threat range. Or the game where he went from side of the table to another through most of a Tyranid army in two turns using Wings, Assault Moves and Consolidate.

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a BA psychic table with Wings as the Primaris

[Shaezus]

Forgive me but I've forgotten - did SW get their own psychic table?

 

Part of me actually hopes we don't get wings!? Because then mephiston would be probably too tempting. Dangerous because there are more high-strength weapons and instant death shenannigans out there than ever before. And we just know he aint gonna get EW, ever.

[Xenith]

Forgive me but I've forgotten - did SW get their own psychic table?

 

Part of me actually hopes we don't get wings!? Because then mephiston would be probably too tempting. Dangerous because there are more high-strength weapons and instant death shenannigans out there than ever before. And we just know he aint gonna get EW, ever.

 

That's what endurance biomancy is for.

[Shaezus]

 

 

Forgive me but I've forgotten - did SW get their own psychic table?

 

Part of me actually hopes we don't get wings!? Because then mephiston would be probably too tempting. Dangerous because there are more high-strength weapons and instant death shenannigans out there than ever before. And we just know he aint gonna get EW, ever.

That's what endurance biomancy is for.

Which is fine for the 50% of games you will successfully roll for it. Considering the amount of instagib weaponry out there, over a five-game tourny I wouldn't rely on it.