JCarter Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Played Orks tonight with Hrothgar, a wolf lord with storm shield, Fangsword of the icewolf and Twolf mount as my Warlord. He charged a small group of orks with strength 5 and power claws. He executed a Hammer of Wrath attack and killed one ork on Init 10. On Init 5, he was not in base-to-base contact and was unengaged and so was unable to make any attacks. On initiative 1, the orks piled in and Harald died to Instant Death. According to the rules, HoW in not optional. How are others handling this problem? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I thought you got a pile in move after I 10. But I could be wrong. No book in front of me atm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenhunter Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 i'm confused, Harald's weapon is Unwieldy, and he would have striked at the same time the Orks did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Indeed. You get your pile in at the I step that you strike it. With unweidly weapons like axes you get your move at I1. Besides, even if he would be I5 with his weapon, he would pile in at I5 after his HoW. So there is no conceivable way he could be out of range to attack even if HoW killed someone. HoW itself does not grant additional moves. Only your actual attacks do, unless stated otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrogzc Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Adding to what Immersturm said, I think that you pile in in your current weapon Ini step. So if you use the axe you would pile in at Ini 1 not 5. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The hammer of wrath does not provide for a pile in step as stated in the rules. Which is weird as its only activated if you finish your charge in base contact...meaning you would never need to have a pile-in at init 10 anyway. Subsequent init's will have their pile-in's as described by immersturm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 My bad pile in always confused me a bit. But unless you chose to use haralds bolt pistol you would be at I 1 do the ork's would have to pile into you anyway Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadir Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think you can not use pistol as a weapon of choice if you have another one, and it gives you just +1A. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Page 42: A pistol counts as a close combat weapon in melee. They are treated as S: User, AP -. Their shooting profile does not count in melee. But note that Harald also has a Stormshield. He can never gain the +1A from Pistol + CCW, despite having both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Yeah but he gets Over watch, totally worth it right??????? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Shouldn't you be the one assaulting in the first place? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Shouldn't you be the one assaulting in the first place? Well before you a' salt sometimes you should pepper them with bullets. That's what makes them season'd vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Dem puns again :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Shouldn't you be the one assaulting in the first place? Well before you a' salt sometimes you should pepper them with bullets. That's what makes them season'd vets. Best one yet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Page 42: A pistol counts as a close combat weapon in melee. They are treated as S: User, AP -. Their shooting profile does not count in melee. But note that Harald also has a Stormshield. He can never gain the +1A from Pistol + CCW, despite having both. Yes, he can't get the extra attack but he can still choose to attack with the pistol. Initiative 5 rending attacks are preferred in certain scenarios - orks are probably the best example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3841955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 You all are right to castigate me. I did not have Harale, my usual warlord, but Hrothgar, who would have attacked on initiative 4 and therefore lost all his attacks. Mea maxima culpa. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 After reading your replies, I have come to these conclusions: Harald, if I had been using him, could have used the pistol at I6; but at I6 he was still unengaged and could not make a pile-in move. (Hammer of Wrath restriction). The former rule requiring the use of a special CC weapon has apparently been deleted. Hrothgar would have be in the same position but couldn't use his sword. Canis (if he were the only survivor of a pack) would find himself in the same position. None of these models could pile in at their normal initiative because of this rule: "If a model can attack in several initiative steps, it only piles in at the highest of these steps." The only remedy I can see is to avoid charging with a single HoW model unless the model's normal initiative is equal to or lower than the foe's initiative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkholme888 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think there is something amiss here... The HoW attack does not get a pile in move, but that should not mean you would not get a pile in move after taking the HoW attack. The book is clarifying that you would not get a pile in move at I10 to bring more models into base for more HoW attacks. I believe you should have gotten a pile in move at I5 for your first attacks coming from the fangsword. Hammer of Wrath being a special rule should not trigger the "only pile in at highest initiative" bit from the pile in rules section. once again, RAW and RAI Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 You never lose attacks after HoW kills someone. HoW is not an attack and you do not pile in after it. You still pile in at your initiative step, no matter who you use. I have no clue where you got this idea of losing attacks from. It is absurd on so many levels. Besides, Harald has I5 in bis profile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Iam lost at the part where he got instakilled, hows that possible? You charge with Toughness 5 into Orks, i guess it where Nobs. Those are strength 4 base with klaw makes them strength 8. Even if they charged they could never instakilled a toughness 5 guy as they would be strength 9. Did i miss something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I think the part where he gets hit by 5 pk wearing nobz is where he died... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I think the part where he gets hit by 5 pk wearing nobz is where he died... Although not an ideal situation, its not the most unsurvivable thing in the world nobs get what, 3 attacks with a power claw? WS4? (apologies if ive got that wrong, my green knowledge is not great) So thats 15 attacks (or 12 if HoW takes one down), hitting on 5s, (so 5 hits average/4 if HoW takes one out), wounding on 2s, you then get a 3++ against each wound, which should be S8 hits, so not be instakilling harald?? edit - or is a power claw just straight up S10?? I always thought power claw was the same as a power fist (ie x2 strength) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3842881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I think for clarity's sake. .. It goes like this. You assault into base 2 base HoW attack Whoever is the next initiative (you or orks) then pile in. More attacks. If you are I1 and so are they you will pile in at your initative. Then they do. Then fights. At worst you both gets attacks at same time . At best you have higher initiative - pile in - and attack before they do. Am I wrong with this anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3843076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I think the only reason behind not letting the HoW grant a pile in move is some you can't contact with 1 model, then get 4 more HoW attacks because you piled them in. Seems more balanced to me that way. Granted I am still very new to 7th ed so I am iffy on rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3843120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
callmeMrBadger Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 I didn't read thT he was using Harold. But a wolf Lord onto underwood armed with storm sheild and fangsword. The original oster gave his Lord a name similar to Harold but it's not. Anyway. I can't remember off the top of my head what kraken sword does, something but I'm sure it's not unwieldy. I think the crucial point was that the hammer of wrath at initiative 10 does not cause a pile in move. Also worth noting when running lots of cavalry, that HoW States models base contact, as I've seen before peop,e try to claim HoW attacks from all cavalry even though only two made it into base blocking the others out. Initiative 5 he should have had his pile in move. As long as the opponent had his guys in unit coherency he should have been able to get base to base again. As for the instant death, with power claws your opponent would need guys with a basic strength of 5 to get the double strength vs toughness to ID your Lord. Basic boys and nobs are not that strong receiving a charge, so what was in the unit to lay such hurt? Natural strength 5 on orks I think are the war bosses and you could have challenged and hoped to kill him at initiative 5 or he could decline and you clear up the rest of the squad. I think a couple of rules clarifications would have prevented your lords thread being cut so early. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298348-helpless-hero-in-hammer-of-wrath/#findComment-3844771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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