Are We Chaos?

[Quixus]

The problem is that close combat is not necessarily restricted to melee but can also include short range fire fights. So those lines do not necessarily justify a bonus in the assault phase of the game. They could also mean relentless for boltguns/rapid fire weapons, fleet or something else entirely.

[Morticon]

The problem is that close combat is not necessarily restricted to melee but can also include short range fire fights. So those lines do not necessarily justify a bonus in the assault phase of the game. They could also mean relentless for boltguns/rapid fire weapons, fleet or something else entirely.

 

Relentless for bolters is actually a nice one.  

[ElectricPaladin]

The problem is that close combat is not necessarily restricted to melee but can also include short range fire fights. So those lines do not necessarily justify a bonus in the assault phase of the game. They could also mean relentless for boltguns/rapid fire weapons, fleet or something else entirely.

 

Exactly.

 

I think we can all agree that the Blood Angels are supposed to be the Space Marine army that is best up close. The question is, what does up close mean? From the fluff, it seems like what GW was trying to do originally was to split that excellence between close-quarters shooting - which is why we get things like melta pistols, flame pistols, more flame and melta in general than other chapters, as well as a viciously fast short ranged dakka/flame tank - and melee, which is why we get things like Furious Charge.

 

By the way... I think it's kind of ironic that GW has done a better job with Space Marine variant codices that are a lot more divided and schizophrenic than the Blood Angels. I mean, the Dark Angels are the terminators-and-bikes-and-dakka-and-high-tech-toys marines, and their codex makes sense. The Space Wolves are the long-range-and-short-range-and-counterattack-and-melee marines, and their codex makes sense. But give GW an imperative as simple as "make Space Marines who really want to hang out in the 12'' to 6'' range or be in close combat" and everything falls apart...

[TheHarrower]

On a related note, are there any fluff-bunnies in the house?

 

Would anyone like to trawl the last few codices and check out how the BA are described in terms of their fighting style ?  ?

 

Anyone?

 

Not really a fluff-bunny, but I have the interactive iBooks edition of the Codex so it makes looking this stuff up pretty easy. I did searches for "close combat", "assault", and "melee". This isn't everything that came up, but I think this is enough to form a picture of how GW views the Blood Angels (at least in the 5th edition days).

 

“The Blood Angels are the masters of war in all its forms, but they excel in the savage arena of close assault above all others. Every battle-brother feels the lure of hand-to-hand combat boiling in his blood – only eye-to-eye and blade-to-blade with the foe can the dark beast within the Chapter’s collective soul be given full reign. Caution is not the Blood Angels’ way, and it cannot be yours. ”

 

“Blood Angels are an assault force through and through. They have more close combat specialists than almost any other army. While not every Blood Angels troop type is intended for melee, those units not directly geared for close quarters have unique abilities that allow them to keep pace with your assault troops.”

 

“As a result, the Blood Angels’ preference for close-quarter battle can be seen as clearly in the disposition of its 1st Company as it can elsewhere in the Chapter.”

 

“…given the Blood Angels’ predilection for jump packs in general, and close assault in particular, there is rarely a shortage of battle-brothers with suitable training and temperament to fill Assault Squad rosters as casualties occur. So it is that Assault Squads are likely to remain at full strength, even though the rest of the strike force be woefully undermanned."

 

“Only the most experienced and strong-willed Blood Angels can resist the urge to charge into the fray when blood starts flowing. Nonetheless, even the steadiest Devastator sergeant can occasionally succumb to the lure of close combat. Should the enemy come too close, they might well find themselves beset at far closer quarters than they had imagined.”

 

“Only when a Blood Angel has proven his worth in the Assault and Devastator Squads will he earn his place amongst the Chapter’s Tactical Marines. For a Blood Angel in particular, to aspire to service in a Tactical Squad is to marshal the necessary control over the rage within; to act according to the situation at hand, rather than heed the chained beast in his soul. Not all Blood Angels earn such a position. For some, the lure of blood-drenched assault is too strong – such battle-brothers serve forever in the Chapter’s Assault Squads until death or the Black Rage takes them.”

 

“the Baal’s weapon load-out was far more closely suited to the close range fire fights of the Blood Angels than the more traditional configurations ever were.”

 

“As even a single Assault Squad is too dire a threat to ignore, a carefully coordinated onslaught by two or more squads can present a wealth of devastating tactical possibilities as the enemy shifts their defence perimeter to counter the oncoming jump troops. Only the most numerous of armies can hope to control every approach to every mission critical objective, and even they can accidentally open a vulnerable chink in their perimeter when redeploying. At that point, all it takes is a single mistake, and a sufficiently alert Assault Squad Sergeant to completely alter the course of the battle. Thanks to the mobility provided by the jump pack, what begins as a feint can be swiftly reinforced with other squads, a probing sortie transformed in moments into a terrible and ruinous force 
of destruction.”

 

“Furthermore, all Blood Angels have an innate affinity towards aerial combat. Though the mutation that produced Sanguinius’ wings has never been repeated, the Primarch’s heirs share a love of flight that is impossible for another to understand.”

[Morticon]

Yeah, with that in mind theHarrower, it really does solidify what we "should" be and how our playstyle should be facilitated by the rules. 

[Charlo]

This is pretty much exactly how I see us, THE embodiment of the Emperor's Angels of Death. Soaring across the battlefield and choppin'/ shootin'/ crushin'/mushin' up all the fools who oppose us!

Imagine if we got legitimate flying dreads back. A HUGE pre-heresy looking jump pack. Imagine it's splendour brothers!

[ixzion]

A Jump pack dread would be sooo awesome!!

[Quixus]

Dreads that are monstrous creatures like xenos "walkers" would be nice too. Or even better give all models that are walkers (i.e. bipedal piloted machines) walker rules.

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

I remember back in 3rd ed. when they were discussing the space wolves codex in WD, they specifically mentioned the blood angels as berserkers, whereas the wolves were cold blooded warriors, hence they got counter attack and BA got furious charge (or whatever it was back in the mist of time). 

[Charlo]

I just have this image of some marine-sized turbines whirring on the back of a Furioso, it's blood talons starting to spin in time all the while crackling with lightning. It bends down slightly as to prepare for take-off before launching forward broadcasting a deafening battlecry and slamming into the enemies ranks at flyer speed just sending hewed corpses into the air like a lawnmower through grass.

Maybe combine this with a spear weapon option for venerable dreads (like Sanginuis' one) that allows a sweeping attack against everything in base contact or the like.

I think we need to start a petition.

[Quixus]

Maybe combine this with a spear weapon option for venerable dreads (like Sanginuis' one) that allows a sweeping attack against everything in base contact or the like.

Just model the Magna Grapple as a spear harpoon.

[TheHarrower]

Yeah, with that in mind theHarrower, it really does solidify what we "should" be and how our playstyle should be facilitated by the rules. 

 

So what to you think our special rules should be? I really don't think they'll address ways for us to make it into assault easier, so I hope when we do it's glorious! I think it needs to be something really good that makes you consider charging into combat with a unit you normally wouldn't assault with. 

 

Maybe a roll for each unit within 12" of an enemy unit at the start of your turn. On a 1-2 you suffer Red Thirst and gain Rage and Rending, but can only snap fire in the shooting phase. If assaulted, you would roll for the unit and on a 1-2 suffer Red Thirst and gain Counter-attack and Rending, but you couldn't fire Overwatch.

 

I just hope the rule is something like that and offers both a bonus and some sort of penalty. Rending might be too over the top. Maybe replace that with Preferred Enemy, Fleet, or something else. I also think Furious Charge should just be base now. Everything I read says we are the most bloodthirsty of all the chapters and attack with reckless abandon.

[Xenith]

Chapter tactics:

 

All models have Rage and Furious charge as standard.

 

Death company become something too terrible to countenance.

[Morticon]

Chapter tactics:

 

All models have Rage and Furious charge as standard.

 

Death company become something too terrible to countenance.

 

Not to sound like I "want it all"- or want a broken competitive edge, but.....i dont know if +1 attack at Init would cut it for me.  :/  

Tactical marines become like assault marines and assault marines become like veterans....on the charge.....its very much of a "....err..so?" for me. 

 

 

That being said, FC as standard is really cool

 

 

 

[knife&fork]

All units get the 'rending' USR in assault.

 

There, I fixed it.

[ElectricPaladin]

All units get the 'rending' USR in assault.

 

There, I fixed it.

 

That would be...

 

Hm...

 

Interesting. Not bad, actually. It would make mass assaults by large units of chumps worth it, while the reliable power of the heavy hitters (ie. hammernators and the like) would still be worthwhile. And the potential for a sanguinary guardsman's axe or sword to rend into a tank would be an interesting advantage as well, especially with the +1 S from a priest's FC bubble...

[Xenith]

Interesting. Not bad, actually. It would make mass assaults by large units of chumps worth it,

Who are these chumps you speak of? This isn't the Chaos Cultist forum, my army contains only Angels.

[Zynk Kaladin]

The Death Chumpany

[Demoulius]

The Death Chumpany

*siren sounds*

 

A voice comes out of a nearby vox: Brother, a transgression against our brothers has been detected. Please remain at your present location. A chaplain has been dispatched to repair your damaged faith in your brothers.

[Morticon]

hahahaha- wow - can you imagine the nerd rage from everyone else if BA got rending in CC?  If we lost all our other stuff -FC, Rage etc...it maaaaaay be okay...but still.. Wow...very, very strong. 

 

That change would make me do a lil' of this, I think:

 

http://1.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/97/17/989a25b07960ad54cfc2c704b02ebab9-kid-overly-excited-about-yu-gi-oh-scrapbook.jpg

 

edit: also, id make it "rending lite" - ala the Eldar shooting. So, no additional bonus.  Id also consider not making it an autowound on 6, just a higher AP, but thats just adding too many extra conditions. .  

[Zynk Kaladin]

http://i.imgur.com/lpmWPBE.png

 

On topic:

 

I do like the idea of The Red Thirst having a simultaneous benefit and detriment and should be checked per turn. 

 

If FC becomes standard, our sanguinary priests should get something other than a FNP bubble.  Not sure what at the moment, but I really would like to see priests become useful again.

 

Despite being just disciplined, I would like to see chaplains become more useful for BA with maybe a Death Co specific force multiplier rule.

[Quixus]

If FC becomes standard, our sanguinary priests should get something other than a FNP bubble.  Not sure what at the moment, but I really would like to see priests become useful again.

+1 Initiative as FC used to be?

 

Despite being just disciplined, I would like to see chaplains become more useful for BA with maybe a Death Co specific force multiplier rule.

While this would be a nerf, I think DC should not be as controllable as other units. Maybe require them to move towards and shoot the nearest enemy unit, and remove that rule in the presence of a chaplain.

[ElectricPaladin]

http://i.imgur.com/lpmWPBE.png

 

On topic:

 

I do like the idea of The Red Thirst having a simultaneous benefit and detriment and should be checked per turn. 

 

If FC becomes standard, our sanguinary priests should get something other than a FNP bubble.  Not sure what at the moment, but I really would like to see priests become useful again.

 

Despite being just disciplined, I would like to see chaplains become more useful for BA with maybe a Death Co specific force multiplier rule.

 

WADR, I think that rolling turn-by-turn would very quickly get very annoying. I see what you're driving at, but I think it would fail in terms of fun factor and gameability.

[TheHarrower]

 

http://i.imgur.com/lpmWPBE.png

 

On topic:

 

I do like the idea of The Red Thirst having a simultaneous benefit and detriment and should be checked per turn. 

 

If FC becomes standard, our sanguinary priests should get something other than a FNP bubble.  Not sure what at the moment, but I really would like to see priests become useful again.

 

Despite being just disciplined, I would like to see chaplains become more useful for BA with maybe a Death Co specific force multiplier rule.

 

WADR, I think that rolling turn-by-turn would very quickly get very annoying. I see what you're driving at, but I think it would fail in terms of fun factor and gameability.

 

Maybe just make it an offensive bonus? I'm not a fan of rolling each turn either, but in this case I think it gives the best representation of a rule that isn't just a blanket bonus. On the plus side, you'd only roll for enemy units in range. Anyway It certainly won't be more annoying than playing Necrons and trying to remember all of the fiddly rules they have.

 

Didn't one of the designers at one point say that there would be an assault version of Battle Focus for a future army? Assault after running would be cool. We'd still need something else though.

[Black_Sky]

In any turn where the night fighting rules are not in effect, the Blood Angels sparkle in the rays of heavenly suns. Overwatch cannot be declared against charging blood angels units.

 

<- Runs and hides in hidey hole.