Your Grey Knight rules

[Quozzo]

With the Grey Knight units stripped of their unique psychic powers which we've known about since the FAQ, I've been secretly hoping they would give us something to fill the void. Sadly they didn't give us anything useful so I was curious what special rules would you give each unit in place of their old psychic powers. Here's mine.

• Paladins - Eternal Warrior: Although not an offensive ability for which it replaces, Eternal Warrior would help relieve the pain of "closest first" we have in 6th and 7th edition.
• Purifiers - Nothing: Purifiers are the only squad to retain their unique power, not only that but it got better!
• Strike Squad/Interceptor Squad - Stealth: With their ability to manipulate the warp around them, the stealth rule simulates how much harder they are to hit, ironically similar to the shroud rule of old (if that is the name, I don't have the codex at hand).
• Terminators - Adamantium Will: Although they didn't have their own power which was a missed opportunity, the BoP and aegis circuitry could work together to bolster the units defenses.
• Purgation Squad - Ignores Cover: Since they are the masters of aiming (although they must now see the target at least) it makes sense that they can hit the target and not the giant thing in front of the target.

Let me know what you think, and what you would have, make your own rules, put them on vehicles, have some on ICs, go nuts.

[Shadrach03]

Strike Squad-Scout and Justicar may purchase 1 servo skull for 5 points

Purgation Squad-Interceptor, May double range of weapons at a cost of reducing total shots by 1/2 +1 point per model

Paladins-Sanctuary,add a sergeant that may take relics, reduce cost by 20 points for the initial squad then by 10 points per model after, 1 special per 2 PALADINS (does not include the sgt or apotecary)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My thinking would be to leave the units that are currently viable as is (no need to improve them), and focus our efforts on the real disappointments. 

 

Armoury of Titan:

- Psilencers become Assault 6. 

- Psycannons become Assault 2, Heavy 4, Range 36". The Salvo rules are fired into the heart of a star. 

- Psybolts return. storm bolters become S5 AP4. 15 points for PA units, 20 points for TDA units

- Teleport homers and locator beacons work even if the bearer only entered the battlefield in the same turn

- Servo-skulls return, 3 points each, each HQ choice or Tech-Marine may select up to 3

- Nemesis Banner and Brotherhood Banners allow the bearers unit to re-roll failed psychic tests to activate Santic powers. The Nemesis Banner applies this bonus to the bearers unit and any friendly Grey Knight unit within 12". 

 

HQ:

 

- Crowe: Price reduction to 150 points. Crowe's attacks have the Smash special rule, and he re-rolls failed saving throws in close-combat. The Sword of Antywr is a a force weapon. 

- Stern: Price reduction to 150 points. 

- Tech-Marine: Price reduction to 60 points. Wounds increased to 2. Nemesis force sword and storm bolter standard. Rad, blind and psychostroke grenades return as wargear options, 10 points each. May take orbital strike relay

 

Elites:

 

- Purifiers gain the 'Deep Strike' special rule. 

- Paladins: Price reduction to 40 points per model. Free choice of nemesis weapon. May pay 5 points to master-craft one weapon per model. Paladins know the 'Hammerhand', 'Banishment', 'Vortex of Doom' and 'Force' psychic powers. Apothecary reduced to 15 points. 

- Dreadnought increased to AV13. DCCW replaced with nemesis hammer. Weapon options expanded to include heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator and heavy psilencer. Price reduced to 80 points. Dreadnoughts know the 'Banishment', 'Shrouding' and 'Force' psychic powers. 

 

Troops:

 

- Strikes gain the Scout special rule. Justicar tax is fired into the heart of a star. 

 

Fast Attack:

 

- Rhinos gain the 'Psychic Pilot' special rule. They know the 'Banishment' and 'Shrouding' psychic powers. 

- Razorbacks gain the 'Psychic Pilot' special rule. They know the 'Banishment' and 'Shrouding' psychic powers. 

 

Heavy Support:

 

- Land Raiders gain the 'Psychic Pilot' special rule. They know the 'Banishment' and 'Shrouding' psychic powers. 

- Purgators know the 'Banishment', 'Hammerhand' and 'Perfect Timing' psychic powers. They gain the 'Deepstrike' special rule. 

[Zembar]

- Paladins: Price reduction to 40 points per model. Free choice of nemesis weapon. May pay 5 points to master-craft one weapon per model. Paladins know the 'Hammerhand', 'Banishment', 'Vortex of Doom' and 'Force' psychic powers. Apothecary reduced to 15 points. 

 

That might do it. I'd gladly pay 45 each if they got T5 as well though. Especially with your proposed 36" range for psycannons.

[Rurik the blessed]

All i read seems "UNBALANCED"

...

 

please, don't make this list an OP wanted codex.

 

think about it... Purifiers with deep strike? common! , they are powerful enough right now.

paladins with a price reduction is enough. Vortex of doom?.

 

I have played a lot of games with this new codex... my first impression was that the "balance job" was exaggerated, but, IN PLAY, we really have a good codex. 

 

Some units needs some aid, it's true... like Purgators, but what i saw in this topic was too much. Maybe giving them "Slow and Purposeful" would fix them.

 

Servo skulls can be achieved with Inquisitors, no need to give us acces to that.

 

Techmarines, they definitely needs a point reduction.

 

Strike Squad. I like the idea of Scout or Stealth.

 

Dreadnoughts needs to be ML2, and choose powers from Sanctic .

 

we need acces to a cheaper troop unit, like acolytes (the chosen to take the GK training).

 

Brotherhood champion needs acces to a teleport backpack.

 

Maybe, our vehicles should have the option to take a techmarine pilot. (thinking on the fluff), that gives the option to autorepair (like rhino).

[Quozzo]

we need acces to a cheaper troop unit, like acolytes (the chosen to take the GK training).

I was thinking the same. I thought 100 points was a lot, then it went up. Since it might take a while to find an initiate who is attuned to the psychic resonance of the squad, it's not uncommon for them to be understrength. If a strike (or even terminator) squad could start with 3 models like paladins then it would lower the cost of the unit for lower point games.

[raverrn]

Damn Darius, there's not a single thing there that isn't brutally overpowered or undercosted.

[Captain Coolpants]

Obviously purgation squads needs something... Slow and purposeful/relentless would be perfect. Maybe even give 'only' them psybolts?

 

Remove justicar tax, and delete it from the history books and seal it in titan until the end of time.

 

And psylencers... I'm really not sure about these.. I do NOT believe they should be assault 6. Because how would 'essentially' 8 force attacks in total after assaults per model not be OP?

 

But I also do not agree with it being heavy. So maybe.... maybeeeee make it strength 4, assault 3, ap -?

 

Or keep it heavy, and actually give it a heavy profile, so make it strength 6, heavy 5, ap4 or something.

[Raktra]

In my dream world:
- One more wound on Grand Masters
- Cuirass gives Eternal Warrior alongside the other stuff. Push the cost up though
- Champions knocked down to 120, Herald of Titan brought back
- Crowe to 150, able to use one stance out of challenges, both in challenges
- Some improvements to Dreadnoughts. Chapter specific weapons and the like

- Psilencers as an assault weapon

- Something for Purgators
- Cheaper Paladins, or failing that 4+ invulnerables for them

- Non-apothecary character for Paladins

- Space Wolves removed from existence. It won't change the Greys, but I'd be all the happier

[jeffersonian000]

I would rather see all GK units having Psybolt Ammo standard, no cost change per model, no change to the Bolter profile unless Force is activated in the Psychic phase. If Force is activited, GK Stormbolters are S5 AP5.

 

This would encourage players to make tough choices between spending dice on power activation or saving dice for Force activation.

 

As to unit special abilities, I'd prefer:

 

Paladins: Eternal Warrior

GKT: Stubbern

Strikers: Stealth

Purgators: Ignores Cover, Slow and Purposeful

Dreadnoughts: Psychic Hood, PML2

 

I think those added abilities would see the current "bad" units taken more often, as they would now have a reason to take them over the more "useful" units. Its a harder choice to not take Dreadnoughts when they add so much to the army via psychic defense and extra psychic dice. Paladins would be a legitament choice versus Purifiers if they can't be one-shot'd. Purgation squads go for "Ewww" to "OMG" if they can move a shoot Heavy weapons while ignoring Jink.

 

As to GKT and Strikers, I feel that GKT are our Tacticals while Strikers are our Scouts. Yet, they are neither Tacticaks nor Scouts. Stubbern is what GKs in Tactical Dreadnought Armor are all about, they are the stalwart core of an elite army dedicated to fighting the most terrifying enemy of all. Stealth on Strikers just makes sense.

 

SJ

[thraxdown]

I'd like paladins to either get a second warp charge and purge soul, have a point reduction or t5.

 

Ignores cover would work for purgators, or give them the divination psychic power that gives you ignore cover (perfect timing I think?). Although that would be weird in that it would not fit in with the design of the rest of the codex.

 

Dreadnoughts need fixing as well, a second warp charge wouldn't hurt. I understand the design team wants to make it difficult to spam warp charges, but with the new psychic phase it's hard enough to cast powers. A couple more warp charges in our army is not going to hurt.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Think about it... Purifiers with deep strike? common! , they are powerful enough right now.

 

(shrug) They're still just Tac Marines in terms of durability. I personally don't understand why any of our non-vehicle units shouldn't be able to Deepstrike. We almost always deploy via teleporter, its dumb that neither Purifier nor Purgators can do so normally. Right now you need to invest another 200pts in a Raven just to field Purifiers effectively. 

paladins with a price reduction is enough. Vortex of doom?.

 

Paladins being just 2-wound Terminators isn't enough. Not with Riptides, Wraithknights and Knight-Titans in the meta. 'Vortex' is still a psychic power, its a WC3 power, and its a small blast that can scatter. It would add something to the unit that's unique and bring them into the same tier as Purifiers (who get the same special weapon access, have Fearless as well, and have their own unique ranged power). 

Some units needs some aid, it's true... like Purgators, but what i saw in this topic was too much. Maybe giving them "Slow and Purposeful" would fix them.

 

'Slow and Purposeful' only makes them as good as Terminators. 'Perfect Timing' brings the drawbacks of being a psychic power (I thought giving them 'Ignore Cover' would be a bit much). 

 

Servo skulls can be achieved with Inquisitors, no need to give us acces to that.

 

 

I guess...I just hate they got stripped out along with the grenades. It sucks and there was no overwhelming need to remove them. 

Dreadnoughts needs to be ML2, and choose powers from Sanctic .

 

Nah I'd leave that as an upgrade to a Librarian-Dreadnought (like BA have). Most warriors who get interred in a Dreadnought are not Librarians, they'd probably be Paladins or officers. 

we need acces to a cheaper troop unit, like acolytes (the chosen to take the GK training).

 

 

No we do not. We can Ally such things, but Grey Knights do not send their initiates into battle, it would be a colossal waste of resources. They only send full battle-brothers. I don't think our infantry are overpriced, its just that Terminators are absurdly better than Strikes. Strikes need a extra bit of oomph to make them worthwhile. Scout and the removal of Justicar tax would make that comparison better. Plus the changes to psycannon I outlined. 

Brotherhood champion needs acces to a teleport backpack.

 

Yeah that would be good too. I always forget it because I never use them. 

 

Maybe, our vehicles should have the option to take a techmarine pilot. (thinking on the fluff), that gives the option to autorepair (like rhino).

 

 

'Psychic Pilot' is a better buff IMO. Contributing WC to the army plus some additional powers would bring them into 'useful' range. Currently spending points on vehicles besides Ravens is a waste as A: they generate no charge and B: they die far too easily. 

 

Damn Darius, there's not a single thing there that isn't brutally overpowered or undercosted. 

 

 

How so? I'm simply bringing the terrible units up to scratch, firing the Salvo rules into the heart of the sun, and making our vehicles viable again. We're still an expensive low-model count army. Paladins still melt before they can even try for 'Vortex' if they get Inter-Tided. Serpents still tear apart our infantry beyond 36", making psycannons have actual range would mean we're not just torn to pieces Turn 1 and Turn 2 before we even make weapon range. 

 

Obviously purgation squads needs something... Slow and purposeful/relentless would be perfect. Maybe even give 'only' them psybolts? 

 

 

It's not enough. Purgators are supposed to be the fire support experts of the Chapter. If they're only as good as Terminators, but die far more easily, they have the same problem that Devastators do. 'Perfect Timing' isn't a guranteed buff, and 'Ignore Cover' isn't always gonna be useful. But combined with the increase in psycannon range, it means they can actually camp and deal with the stupid Skimmers and Flyers/FMC's that currently roll over our army with impunity. Again, like Purifiers, they're still just Tac Marines to enemy firepower. 

And psylencers... I'm really not sure about these.. I do NOT believe they should be assault 6. Because how would 'essentially' 8 force attacks in total after assaults per model not be OP? 

 

Heavy makes them useless trash, even on Terminators you'd never take them over psycannon. You could drop them down to Assault 4. S4 and no AP balances them against high-Toughness monsters and multi-wound, as you may fail to wound or fail to get through their save. Also, 'Force' has to be activated, you may not get it off due to enemy dispel. 

Cuirass gives Eternal Warrior alongside the other stuff. Push the cost up though

 

Yeah I found it odd it didn't give that. 

Ignores cover would work for purgators, or give them the divination psychic power that gives you ignore cover (perfect timing I think?). Although that would be weird in that it would not fit in with the design of the rest of the codex. 

 

GW is never consistent with their rules. Also, implying GW 'designed' any of our codex. They purposely pushed Terminators as hard as they could, plus they buffed Purifiers and Dreadknights for no real reason. Everything else had their cool or unique abilities stripped out and...usually went up in price. 

 

Giving Purgators 'Perfect Timing' is a simple way to represent their psychic senses. 'Ignore Cover' is powerful but it's not always going to be useful. Also, being a psychic power balances it, as it will not always be turned on. Lets be honest, no one ever casts 'Hammerhand' or 'Banishment' from Purgators, or even 'Force'. So at least 'Perfect Timing' would give them something to do in the psychic phase. 

[raverrn]

Sure, I've got a little time, let me talk through it.

 

 

Armoury of Titan:

- Psilencers become Assault 6. 

• Psilencers are in a prety good spot as is right now. They don't need a buff, least of all one that provides WITHERING firepower.

- Psycannons become Assault 2, Heavy 4, Range 36". The Salvo rules are fired into the heart of a star. 

• Why the range increase? Are Grey Knights known for hanging out outside 

- Psybolts return. storm bolters become S5 AP4. 15 points for PA units, 20 points for TDA units

• I, too feel that every GK should have a Heavy Bolter. I, too feel that Non-SM codices don't deserve to exist on the battlefield. 

- Teleport homers and locator beacons work even if the bearer only entered the battlefield in the same turn

• Because GK are ~*~Special~*~ and should Deep Strike without error, in addition to doing ss on the first turn and running when they do it. I don't see how perfect accuracy first turn Incinerators could be a problem, no sir.

- Servo-skulls return, 3 points each, each HQ choice or Tech-Marine may select up to 3

• Servo-skulls are an integral and important part of the GK fluff, and I should be able to cripple a wide swath of enemy units with a minimal point investment!

- Nemesis Banner and Brotherhood Banners allow the bearers unit to re-roll failed psychic tests to activate Sanctic powers. The Nemesis Banner applies this bonus to the bearers unit and any friendly Grey Knight unit within 12". 

• 'Free' extra buff to the best Libby around? I suppose.

 

HQ:

 

- Crowe: Price reduction to 150 points. Crowe's attacks have the Smash special rule, and he re-rolls failed saving throws in close-combat. The Sword of Antywr is a a force weapon. 

• Make Crowe better than a Brotherhood Champion in every way and also cheaper. O...kay?

- Stern: Price reduction to 150 points. 

• See above. What's your deal with making Special Characters a must-have?

- Tech-Marine: Price reduction to 60 points. Wounds increased to 2. Nemesis force sword and storm bolter standard. Rad, blind and psychostroke grenades return as wargear options, 10 points each. May take orbital strike relay

• SM Techmarine: 75 points. GK Psyker Techmarine: 60 points???

 

Elites:

 

- Purifiers gain the 'Deep Strike' special rule. 

• Turn one, no scatter Deep Striking Cleansing Flame. FAIR.

- Paladins: Price reduction to 40 points per model. Free choice of nemesis weapon. May pay 5 points to master-craft one weapon per model. Paladins know the 'Hammerhand', 'Banishment', 'Vortex of Doom' and 'Force' psychic powers. Apothecary reduced to 15 points. 

• YES FOR THE LOW PRICE OF A PFIST TERMIE WE GET PSYCHIC D-WEAPON TWO WOUND FNP INSTANT DEATH...

- Dreadnought increased to AV13. DCCW replaced with nemesis hammer. Weapon options expanded to include heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator and heavy psilencer. Price reduced to 80 points. Dreadnoughts know the 'Banishment', 'Shrouding' and 'Force' psychic powers.

• EIGHTY POINTS FOR AN AV13 WALKER THA...NNNN...HNNGHH...

*SOUNDS OF BRAIN ANEURYSM*

[raverrn]

Something more reasonable:

 

Relics of Titan: Psybolt Generator: If the character or his unit manifests the Hammerhand psyker power, the bonus to strength applies also to any Stormbolter in the unit. 40 points. - I dunno what you guys obsession with psybolts is, but here you go or something. Maintains the spirit of the original but gives your opponent some counterplay.

 

Paladins: IWND - it seems like an odd choice, but instead of the brain-dead EW buff, IWND rewards a player for positioning, absorbing wounds from multiple angles and striking into the heart of enemy formations. Paladins should have a weakness, EW makes them perfect. Alternative option: Fleet.

 

Dreadnought: Psycannon option for both arms, +15 each - Maintains the machine's Psybolt effectiveness but adds a weakness - range - and avoids new rules introductions.

 

Strike Squad and Interceptors: Interceptor - Hearkens back to Warp Quake without a major rules edit, messed up, or being stupid OP like Warp Quake was.

 

Land Raiders: Psyker Pilot, Banishment and Sanctuary. Count as open topped for the purposes of casting psychic powers. +5 points. - Emphasizes the GK focus on powers, makes a nasty, nasty Purifier Transport.

 

Purgation Squad: Replace Hammerhand with Prescience. Gives them some ability against Flyers, a general and interesting buff to shooting, and added utility with the ability to buff other units at the cost of a large part of their melee power.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

- Psilencers become Assault 6. 

• Psilencers are in a prety good spot as is right now. They don't need a buff, least of all one that provides WITHERING firepower.

 

Kek. Who actually takes psilencers now? Dreadknights, if that. Considering you need to turn 'Force' on before they're anything but glorified storm bolters (they don't even have AP5), and considering even with 'Force' you need to contend with T6+ and 3+ or 2+ armour saves on the target, it's actually quite hard to get them to insta-gib things. "Withering firepower?". Tell that to Tau or Eldar. 

 

- Psycannons become Assault 2, Heavy 4, Range 36". The Salvo rules are fired into the heart of a star. 

• Why the range increase? Are Grey Knights known for hanging out outside 

 

Because if any of our squads have a strategy beyond 'get into melee ASAP', it means camping in cover. 24" is not enough range to threaten most vehicles or other heavy weapon squads. 36" lets you deploy aggressively and lay down suppressing fire for your Terminators to advance under. 24" means you have to be as close as they are to the enemy, which is not helpful for models in PA. 

 

Also, psycannons used to be range 36", albeit without Rending and S7. It would be a return to form. I'd even trade the S7 for the range upgrade, its that much more relevant. 

 

- Psybolts return. storm bolters become S5 AP4. 15 points for PA units, 20 points for TDA units

• I, too feel that every GK should have a Heavy Bolter. I, too feel that Non-SM codices don't deserve to exist on the battlefield. 

 

It jacks up the price of the unit, but it doesn't add anything to their survivability. Maybe drop the AP4 (it doesn't terrible matter, as armies without 3+ armour hug cover and armies with 3+ or 2+ saves don't care either way), but S5 shooting would mean its not just the psycannons or incinerators actually killing things. Storm bolters are 20pts each are just completely underwhelming in most firefights, you're either outnumbered or outshot. Also, psybolts wouldn't be an auto-include (they certainly were not last time round), they'd be best only on units that can only get 1-2 specials (Purifiers and Purgators will just take four psycannons instead). 

 

Also, it's not a heavy bolter. Heavy bolters are Heavy 3 and have range 36". 

 

- Teleport homers and locator beacons work even if the bearer only entered the battlefield in the same turn

• Because GK are ~*~Special~*~ and should Deep Strike without error, in addition to doing ss on the first turn and running when they do it. I don't see how perfect accuracy first turn Incinerators could be a problem, no sir.

 

I'd prefer they change it for all Imperial armies, because it's really dumb. Anything with it on-table Turn 1 will get focused to death, and anything that has to wait around for a turn if they themselves arrive from Reserve suffers the same problem. They work AFTER the turn they're most needed. 

 

You can get perfect accuracy incinerator into enemy lines right now. Its called personal teleporters. I have more people complain about those than accurate Deepstrikers. Deepstrike you can deploy defensively against. Shunting is next to impossible to deal with, unless you completely turtle in one corner. 

 

- Servo-skulls return, 3 points each, each HQ choice or Tech-Marine may select up to 3

• Servo-skulls are an integral and important part of the GK fluff, and I should be able to cripple a wide swath of enemy units with a minimal point investment!

 

For 25 points I can get servo-skulls anyway, so it hardly matters. Also, denying Scout moves is hardly game-changing. It screws a few army builds but it does nothing to the power lists or normal armies. 

 

- Nemesis Banner and Brotherhood Banners allow the bearers unit to re-roll failed psychic tests to activate Sanctic powers. The Nemesis Banner applies this bonus to the bearers unit and any friendly Grey Knight unit within 12". 

• 'Free' extra buff to the best Libby around? I suppose.

 

Neither are free, and both are mounted on Terminators. Also, Sevrin Loth, Tigerius and Eldrad are the best psykers in the game. Ours is good but he's nothing compared to them. 

 

 Crowe: Price reduction to 150 points. Crowe's attacks have the Smash special rule, and he re-rolls failed saving throws in close-combat. The Sword of Antywr is a a force weapon. 

• Make Crowe better than a Brotherhood Champion in every way and also cheaper. O...kay?

 

Nah, Bro Champ would go back to 100 points. 50 point gap, just like before. 

 

- Stern: Price reduction to 150 points. 

• See above. What's your deal with making Special Characters a must-have?

 

*usable. There is no reason I'd ever take Stern outside of games against Daemons. A Grandmaster is a better option every time. At 150 points you might take him over a Bro-Captain. 

 

- Tech-Marine: Price reduction to 60 points. Wounds increased to 2. Nemesis force sword and storm bolter standard. Rad, blind and psychostroke grenades return as wargear options, 10 points each. May take orbital strike relay

• SM Techmarine: 75 points. GK Psyker Techmarine: 60 points???

 

Their Tech-Marine is overpriced and useless as well. I'd reduce him to 50 points. 10 points extra for the Knight version makes sense. 

 

Elites:

 

- Purifiers gain the 'Deep Strike' special rule. 

• Turn one, no scatter Deep Striking Cleansing Flame. FAIR.

 

They only land with no scatter if they have a friendly locator beacon to land off (teleport homers only work for TDA), which are vehicle mounted. Also, you need to successfully cast 'Cleansing Flame' and not have it denied. Plus, you need the enemy to have lots of infantry deployed on foot, or only have light vehicles. Turn 1 shunting Dreadknights and Interceptors do far more damage than 'Cleansing Flame' ever will. Plus, they can still get Intercepted. 

 

- Paladins: Price reduction to 40 points per model. Free choice of nemesis weapon. May pay 5 points to master-craft one weapon per model. Paladins know the 'Hammerhand', 'Banishment', 'Vortex of Doom' and 'Force' psychic powers. Apothecary reduced to 15 points. 

• YES FOR THE LOW PRICE OF A PFIST TERMIE WE GET PSYCHIC D-WEAPON TWO WOUND FNP INSTANT DEATH...

 

Lel. Minimum 200pt investment, which coulda bought you a DK with hammer, psycannon and teleporter. Again, 'Vortex' is WC3 (so very hard to pull off), and its a blast that can scatter poorly. 

 

- Dreadnought increased to AV13. DCCW replaced with nemesis hammer. Weapon options expanded to include heavy psycannon, heavy incinerator and heavy psilencer. Price reduced to 80 points. Dreadnoughts know the 'Banishment', 'Shrouding' and 'Force' psychic powers.

• EIGHTY POINTS FOR AN AV13 WALKER THA...NNNN...HNNGHH...

 

It still dies to Hull Point loss. What's your point?

Relics of Titan: Psybolt Generator: If the character or his unit manifests the Hammerhand psyker power, the bonus to strength applies also to any Stormbolter in the unit. 40 points. - I dunno what you guys obsession with psybolts is, but here you go or something. Maintains the spirit of the original but gives your opponent some counterplay.

 

Top kek. S5 shooting is imbalanced, but S6 is perfectly fine? Also, they didn't pay 20 points for it either, they just get it on a really easy WC1 power (that also buffs their melee at the same time). 

Paladins: IWND - it seems like an odd choice, but instead of the brain-dead EW buff, IWND rewards a player for positioning, absorbing wounds from multiple angles and striking into the heart of enemy formations. Paladins should have a weakness, EW makes them perfect. Alternative option: Fleet.

 

The problem is, you give Paladins any kind of ability like that, you make them unbalanced. They should be fairly costed, but still able to be nuked by the right weaponry. EW and IWND have the same issues of making them too durable. That's why I'd opt for a price reduction, along with reducing Terminators in other armies to 30ppm. 

Dreadnought: Psycannon option for both arms, +15 each - Maintains the machine's Psybolt effectiveness but adds a weakness - range - and avoids new rules introductions.

 

It still dies Turn 1 to most lists, and you'll be out of range for at least a turn, if not two, from your intended targets. 

 

Strike Squad and Interceptors: Interceptor - Hearkens back to Warp Quake without a major rules edit, messed up, or being stupid OP like Warp Quake was.

 

 

On Strikes I could see it being useful. Interceptors are generally getting into melee though, so it's not terribly useful on them. 

 

Land Raiders: Psyker Pilot, Banishment and Sanctuary. Count as open topped for the purposes of casting psychic powers. +5 points. - Emphasizes the GK focus on powers, makes a nasty, nasty Purifier Transport.

 

 

Why would they count as open-topped? You're breaking the vehicle rules. Anyway, you can just dump Purifiers out, cast 'Cleansing', then either charge something or flat-out the LR in front of them to reduce enemy firepower at them. 

Purgation Squad: Replace Hammerhand with Prescience. Gives them some ability against Flyers, a general and interesting buff to shooting, and added utility with the ability to buff other units at the cost of a large part of their melee power.

 

But it's pointless, because all our HQ's have access to 'Prescience' anyway. 'Perfect Timing' would make them much more relevant to both shooting down Flyers/FMC's and killing Serpents etc. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Although Raverrn is being a diggedy douche bag about it; he is completely correct.

 

Why should our terminators get get any buff at all?

 

Why should our paladins get Eternal warrior? (especially when space wolves Eternal warrior toting lone wolves are 80pts in power armour with no psychic level and can't be in squads)

 

And considering no other army out there complains that they can't use their multiple wound squads because of riptides. (although I do believe they should get an extra warp charge/power)

 

Why should our strike/interceptor squads get a buff? (other than being rid of justicar tax)

Because they literally

are just pure psyker tac Marines with fancy toys and a very specific enemy, nothing else.

 

The only things that need to be addressed are the things that NEED changes or extra rules to even make them viable.

 

Main suspects are purgation squads and dreadnoughts. In my eyes, they are THE ONLY units that actually REQUIRE a rules change.

 

So dreadnoughts...

I've been saying this since dreadknights were first introduced.... That our dreadnoughts should be able to use their guns! And obviously in this new codex.. The base cost of our dreads need to be reduced, because right now we're paying waaaay too much just for psychic pilot.

 

 

And purgation squads..

We all know what they NEED. Either better aim or the ability to walk and shoot. I know someone earlier made the comment about them being just as good as terminators at shooting but easier to kill if they had relentless. But you also need to be aware that they would cost practically half as much.

 

And this last one would just be a 'non essential changes'

.

, but psylencers still need a change, either give them a strength + ap worthy of a heavy weapon or make it more of an assault gun. The fact they utterly nerfed psycannons (which should be reversed) it seems more likely that they'd give it a better heavy profile if they ever did something about it.... Which they won't.

 

Our vehicles should all have psychic pilot... There is LITERALLY a psychic pilot... So why have they removed it? It doesn't actually make sense. (but I can kinda understand, combat squaded purifiers in a rhino would have 5 charges!!)

 

 

And obviously some point reductions for characters and HQs that have already been meantioned by others :-P

[Quozzo]

Jbat your post can be summed up to "why give them more stuff", to which the answer is; because they used to have it. The gap between 5th and 7th took away almost all viable options, what we have left is a shadow of what we were once.

[Zembar]

Purgation squads are a joke because:

1. Same slot as the Dreadknight, arguably our best unit
2. Compared to a ten-man squad of purifiers you pay 4 points less per model, but you miss out on fearless, twice the warp charges, cleansing flame, and +1A +1Ld for the normal guys, and the purifiers use up elite slots instead, which you have more than plenty of in a NSF, and they're shared with dreadnoughts and paladins which no sane person takes nowadays.
3. Special weapons except incinerator are useless on PAGK.

 

Psilencers need help, and I could maybe live with the salvo on psycannons if they could shoot 36". At least they could give the purgators access to some vanilla weapons, like plasma and lascannons, so you could camp them in cover somewhere.

 

EDIT: Fixed bullet points.

[Captain Coolpants]

Jbat your post can be summed up to "why give them more stuff", to which the answer is; because they used to have it. The gap between 5th and 7th took away almost all viable options, what we have left is a shadow of what we were once.

As far as I am aware, the grey knights only lost psybolts. (which to he fair... Was a dick move!) But how is Adding things like Eternal warrior, shrouded, scout ect ect going to replace that? It's not, it's just going to make our already exceptional value Marines even more so. Yeah those extra rules everyone wants will make our expensive Marines live longer, but a compromise will have to be made somewhere. You can't just have all the cool toys AND extra survivability for the same price. Our Marines get like 20pts worth of extra stuff/abilities already, and only for 5pts more than a naked tac marine!

 

And we lost inquisition yeah... But it's literally made no difference to the overall scheme of things unless you only ever had a single inquisitor as your whole armies hq choice.

 

To be honest, I'd love to get all these rules you guys meantioned... I kinda hate going up against another marine player or a xenos player and their army fills the whole board side, and all I have are a few squads and 2 dreadknights or something. And I just know that my guys will die just as easily as theirs, yet they have tons more for the same points.

 

But we all knew this before we decided to play as knights.

 

 

Plus I did say our dreads should be cheaper and have more options and I did actually say that purgation squads should get extra rules.

 

So your sum up of my post is completely false.

[Zembar]

 

As far as I am aware, the grey knights only lost psybolts.

 

Psycannons got nerfed, too. And we lost psychic pilot on all vehicles except dreads. And some psychic powers.

 

Along with price cuts on already good stuff, this made dreadnoughts, strikes and purgators worse than they already were. Paladins didn't really get worse, it's just that they're hilariously overpriced compared to terminators now.

[Captain Coolpants]

 

 

As far as I am aware, the grey knights only lost psybolts.

Psycannons got nerfed, too. And we lost psychic pilot on all vehicles except dreads. And some psychic powers.

 

Along with price cuts on already good stuff, this made dreadnoughts, strikes and purgators worse than they already were. Paladins didn't really get worse, it's just that they're hilariously overpriced compared to terminators now.

But they didn't lose the psycannons, and most people only camped with them on purifiers anyway. (although I do hate salvo)

 

And if you read my post before, I actually said it makes no sense for us to not have psychic pilot and that salvo should die.

 

And Well for double the wounds and an extra weapon skill, paladins aren't actually priced badly. BUT when you consider they made terminators cheaper, they indeed should have made paladins 5 ish points less.

 

But all this still doesn't justify giving everything added special rules. As we literally only lost 1 or 2 things

[Zembar]

 

But they didn't lose the psycannons, and most people only camped with them on purifiers anyway. (although I do hate salvo)

 

And if you read my post before, I actually said it makes no sense for us to not have psychic pilot and that salvo should die.

 

And Well for double the wounds and an extra weapon skill, paladins aren't actually priced badly. BUT when you consider they made terminators cheaper, they indeed should have made paladins 5 ish points less.

 

But all this still doesn't justify giving everything added special rules. As we literally only lost 1 or 2 things

 

Except it's more like 6 or 7 things, and they all add up. If psycannons are changed so they're useless, they're lost for all intents and purposes.

 

I also think the special rule thing is a bit overboard, but I think there is a sane middle ground. Mine would be something like this:

Dreadnoughts: Access to the DK weapons, maybe deep strike

Paladins: T5, and either get cheaper OR get personal teleporters as an option

Strikes: No scatter when deep striking.

Purgators: Slow and purposeful

 

Whether this is sane is subjective, of course.

 

 

EDIT: Forgot T5 for pallies

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Why should our terminators get get any buff at all?

 

I didn't suggest they should. I suggested Paladins need a lot of help, because they're currently unplayable garbage. All of my suggestions are aimed at fixing what's wrong with our book. I'm more or less happy with our strong units. But it makes list-writing boring when we only have 1-2 viable builds, and neither is actually top-tier anyway. 

Why should our paladins get Eternal warrior? (especially when space wolves Eternal warrior toting lone wolves are 80pts in power armour with no psychic level and can't be in squads)

 

I specifically said they shouldn't get EW or IWND. A price reduction and a unique psychic power would do the job. Purifiers went up by 1pt but between the changes to melee upgrades and the other buffs they received (Mastery 2, 'Cleansing Flame' is now amazing), it doesn't matter. Paladins meanwhile struggle to remain relevant now that our Troop Terminators are 33pts and do almost everything they do. 

And considering no other army out there complains that they can't use their multiple wound squads because of riptides. (although I do believe they should get an extra warp charge/power) 

 

Lets compare shall we?

 

- Ogryns have T5 and generate enough attacks to pull down most opponents through force saves

- Tyranid Warriors aren't used in competitive lists, because they get nuked too easily

- Centurions have T5 and produce significant firepower

- Crisis Suits are cheaper and have scary firepower

- Broadsides typically have ablative drones or a Buff'O attached to tank enemy fire

- Deathwing Knights gain T5 from standing next to eachother

- Grotesques are T5 and have cheap open-topped fast Skimmers to deliver them into combat

- Wraiths have 3+ invulnerable saves

 

I could go on, but the relevant point is that either they're unusable, have T5, or are cheaper and produce more firepower before they die. Paladins are in the awkward spot of being nearly twice the price of a Troop Terminator, but dying to a S8+ attack less efficiently. If they were cheaper, it wouldn't be such an issue, and they'd function as an effective bodyguard to a Grandmaster or Librarian. As is, they're too pricey to justify the outlay, when you can get nearly twice as many normal Termies who also fulfill Troops. 

Why should our strike/interceptor squads get a buff? (other than being rid of justicar tax) 

Because they literally

are just pure psyker tac Marines with fancy toys and a very specific enemy, nothing else. 

 

You've answered your own question. Strikes currently do nothing better than Terminators, besides dying faster and being unable to take psycannons effectively. Interceptors at least have personal teleporters and thus shunt moves, but they're just incinerator delivery followed by probable death to enemy retaliation (as you can't charge after shunting). You can make them cheap to say take out a Pathfinder/Marker Drone/Lootaz/heavy weapon teams/snipers etc, but that's all they're good for. 

Main suspects are purgation squads and dreadnoughts. In my eyes, they are THE ONLY units that actually REQUIRE a rules change. 

 

They're the most pressing cases. But I'd include a whole swag of our codex with that as well. It's depressing how sparse our list of useful units actually is. HQ is decent, but Elites is Purifiers, Troops are Terminators, Fast Attack is Raven and maybe Interceptors, and Heavy is Dreadknights. That's less than almost any other codex out there. 

We all know what they NEED. Either better aim or the ability to walk and shoot. I know someone earlier made the comment about them being just as good as terminators at shooting but easier to kill if they had relentless. But you also need to be aware that they would cost practically half as much. 

 

It doesn't matter if they never make weapon range due to that issue. Its why making Purgators better isn't enough, their weapon options need to be better as well. Incinerators are fine, but the other two options are close to unusable outside of TDA. 

Psilencers need help, and I could maybe live with the salvo on psycannons if they could shoot 36". At least they could give the purgators access to some vanilla weapons, like plasma and lascannons, so you could camp them in cover somewhere.

 

No, I think we should avoid giving our Purgators the same boring heavy weapons as Marines. We're different for a reason, we don't use that tech because it doesn't affect Daemons efficiently. That's why all our special weapons are geared towards generating lots of wounds, to break invulnerable saves. They gave Rending to psycannons so we're not completely screwed against mech or high AV, but we're geared to fight infantry and MC's. 

 

 

Jbat360 we got nerfed into the ground. I suggest you re-read your codex more carefully. It wasn't just psybolts, we lost entire army builds, characters, wargear options, strategies...so much our old book is gone I barely recognise our army anymore. The saddest part is, even with all the changes, some of what was taken almost all the time before is even more pushed. Dreadknights and Purifiers didn't need buffs, but they sure as hell got them. Terminators are so pushed they've made most of our PA options worthless, especially with the retarded Salvo rules foisted upon our signature special weapon. Which incidentally don't impact on TDA or Dreadknights at all, because they have Relentless and ignore it anyway. 

[Quozzo]

 

 

As far as I am aware, the grey knights only lost psybolts.

Psycannons got nerfed, too. And we lost psychic pilot on all vehicles except dreads. And some psychic powers.

 

Along with price cuts on already good stuff, this made dreadnoughts, strikes and purgators worse than they already were. Paladins didn't really get worse, it's just that they're hilariously overpriced compared to terminators now.

 

But they didn't lose the psycannons, and most people only camped with them on purifiers anyway. (although I do hate salvo)

 

And if you read my post before, I actually said it makes no sense for us to not have psychic pilot and that salvo should die.

 

And Well for double the wounds and an extra weapon skill, paladins aren't actually priced badly. BUT when you consider they made terminators cheaper, they indeed should have made paladins 5 ish points less.

 

But all this still doesn't justify giving everything added special rules. As we literally only lost 1 or 2 things

 

All our units used to have their own psychic powers, they don't now. Plus all the things RD said. There is only one build we can take to be competitive, the cram-as-many-NDK-for-you-points list. The Dreadknight-Wing!

[raverrn]

...Although Raverrn is being a diggedy douche bag...

And this is me being nicer than usual!

Lots and lots of words.

So let's be serious and sit down and ask a few whys. I'm gonna assume a lot of what you posted is backlash and/or not totally thought through. It's the only way I can rationalize some of this stuff, but that's not a big deal.

Let's talk game design. Particularly mine, because I made less suggestions than you did and also I'm the one typing. Nyah.

There is all kinds of stuff out there about the subject and lots of conflicting opinions, but there are some key points to note. Things like decision making - decisions are the very core of gaming, do I do X or Y, you know? They're generally pretty awesome to have, and I try to load anything I brainstorm up with them, on both sides. That is, for the player and their opponent.That kinda leads into counterplay - that models or units or what-have-you should vary in effectiveness based on different conditions or actions, and that players should have to jockey for position, so to speak. It's much healthier for a game for things to work this way, resources changing in value keeps things fresh. So, let's take a peek at something I wrote.

Relics of Titan: Psybolt Generator: If the character or his unit manifests the Hammerhand psyker power, the bonus to strength applies also to any Stormbolter in the unit. 40 points.

So, this is a little different than a straight Psybolt upgrade. For one, it's +2 Strength. That's intentional, not just because Hammerhand is +2. S6 fire can glance AV12, which is super common at the moment, can double-out weaker characters and wounds most troops on a 2+. It's a pretty huge breakpoint, and it feels viscerally much more powerful. This is a Relic, after all, and should justify being one-per-army.

But to justify that power you want to give the GK player's opponent a few ways to try and avoid this trap. The first is obvious - it requires a psyker power go off successfully. (As an aside, the new psychic phase is amazing from a gameplay standpoint. Both players have to make hard choices and it shows. There are a lot of issues with power levels and scaling, but it's a monumental improvement over previous editions.) It's kind of interesting because it only needs one charge to go off but has a big impact on the game, which allows for bating out dice, for bluffing and other tricks.

Second way to counter it - it'll only be one unit, and the range is limited to 24". Staying out of reach is a definite possibility, provided your opponent doesn't have Gate! Also note it's impossible to get it on a unit of Interceptors. I felt that ~20 S6 shots was a bit too much when it automatically shows up in, for instance, the rear of a unit of Leman Russes. Deep Striking or GoI can still get it there, of course, but that brings another set of risks and counters, making DS unreliable. And that is only if you don't have a teleport homer, but that should be a reward for committing resources or outplaying your opponent.

There are also a few other little tricks that come with making it a relic, things like the ability to walk between units or lend out the buffs to allied units - again, note that it applies to Stormbolters only to avoid Sternguard and other shenanigans - and the ability to deny it by killing the carrying character.

There's ALSO, if you want to get in-depth, the combo between it and Strike Squads with Interceptor. (I'd mentioned that, as well, as a little nod to Warp Quake) ~20 S6 shots is nothing to sneeze at - you're looking at 3 or 4 dead marines or a pretty good shot at taking out a dreadnought on glances alone - so having the power up can control large swathes of the battlefield.

That's the kind of thought I (try to) put into rules, even for fun.

Compare all that to your Psybolt idea - a straight upgrade to every unit. There's still play and counterplay, mostly based around what gets shot at. But a lot of the depth is lost, a lot of the impact and the uniqueness is gone as well.

*deep breath*