Training during the Heresy Caused this Problem VIII Legion

[Chronotonic]

So this is another one of my ramblings concerning whatever I may have thought of while waiting for my daughter so I can pick her up and get her home to start her homework.

 

I put this forward to any and all who read this question:

 

Why were the Night Lords so bat poop insane after only a few decades of influx from their adopted home world.

 

I of course has a few theories about my favorite legion

 

FIRST IDEA

 

I use an example for my first reasoning.  What would have happened if you had taken a Young Bruce Wayne genetically engineered him two years after his parents death and gave him weapons and armour and said go kill those bad guys.  He would have probably done this.  It took him all those years as he trained himself and molded his own mind into what it was to be able to do what he needed to do without taking a life.  

 

Now if you take a young man from his world that all he knows is crime force feed him indoctrination of fighting against it without a basis of why you have a stopping point that young mind will then make sense to the best of its own ability.  Thus fear.  

 

If they had taken the time like Roubte Guillygirl had described in his little notebook and taken years of training instead of months maybe the Legion would have been able to hold it together longer and maybe have been a force of good.

 

SECOND IDEA

 

The Emperor in all his wisdom knew that the VIII Legion primarch was not well you are not the most powerful psyker in the galaxy and no realize this.  Also if he knew this then he would have been smart and either made sure the planet was brought into line like the rest of the galaxy and made sure it would not have creeped back in with the crime waves or put more trainers from Terra and then more scientist into the making of the next generation of Astartes.

 

This would have been the good way to do it.  Thus the old history where the Emperor took Cruze to the side and said something along the lines of "Listen I need a guy to be a dick you got this covered right" makes more and more sense that this really happened.

 

-yes I changed somethings but I mean really it makes sense...

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

It was the Primarch. He was a Curze upon them. (Sorry! Not really.)

 

It's my opinion that all of the Primarchs, even the 'good' ones, irrevocably changed their Legions once they were joined, and rarely was it for the better.

[Uprising]

It was the Primarch. He was a Curze upon them. (Sorry! Not really.)

 

It's my opinion that all of the Primarchs, even the 'good' ones, irrevocably changed their Legions once they were joined, and rarely was it for the better.

Agree.  It was the primarch influence that lead to the heresy(and the emperor to much/lack of trust).  The only legion that got better due to their primarch influence was the 18th legion(salamanders).  They went from battering rams to knights of humanity because of Vulcan. 

[ElectricPaladin]

I think you're underestimating the tactical value of having a monster on a leash. Say... if you're a brutal warlord who is hell-bent on conquering the galaxy and is convinced that the golden age of peace and prosperity that you are definitely going to start up when you're done is totally worth whatever you're going to do to get there... then it just might be worth it to have a pet monster. Because sometimes you've got to fight someone who is totally screwed up and awful and evil, and only another equally screwed up monster will do the job.

 

That's the Emperor for you.

 

He knew what Curze was. He always knew. And while it may or may not be true that he had always planned to kill off his "sons," it was probably true that there was serious therapy - if not straight up psychic brain restructuring - in Curze's future. And it's entirely possible that even if the Emperor had cushy peacetime jobs lined up for Guilliman and Sanguinius and Horus and the rest of the ones who were stable - or at least could fake it reasonably well - I think it's entirely possible that Curze was going to have a tragic battlefield accident during the campaign to kill off the last of the Orks or something, if you know what I mean.

 

But remember... thinking like the Emperor... you've got terrible enemies to overcome. Fading xenos empires, corrupt and inhuman transhuman pocket empires, and maybe even the Chaos Gods themselves. Sometimes it's nice to have a monster on your side.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

He did it once with the Thunder Warriors to conquer Earth. Why not again with the Primarchs to conquer the galaxy?

[ElectricPaladin]

He did it once with the Thunder Warriors to conquer Earth. Why not again with the Primarchs to conquer the galaxy?

 

I'd say it's possible, but not definite. He did it before, but maybe he really did have bigger plans for the Primarchs...

 

Or maybe not.

[Phantomzero17]

Magnus would have ended up strapped into the Golden Throne and our father, Angron, and our legions would've been purged.  My two thrones on the matter.

[Flint13]

I think you're underestimating the tactical value of having a monster on a leash. Say... if you're a brutal warlord who is hell-bent on conquering the galaxy and is convinced that the golden age of peace and prosperity that you are definitely going to start up when you're done is totally worth whatever you're going to do to get there... then it just might be worth it to have a pet monster. Because sometimes you've got to fight someone who is totally screwed up and awful and evil, and only another equally screwed up monster will do the job.

 

That's the Emperor for you.

 

He knew what Curze was. He always knew. And while it may or may not be true that he had always planned to kill off his "sons," it was probably true that there was serious therapy - if not straight up psychic brain restructuring - in Curze's future. And it's entirely possible that even if the Emperor had cushy peacetime jobs lined up for Guilliman and Sanguinius and Horus and the rest of the ones who were stable - or at least could fake it reasonably well - I think it's entirely possible that Curze was going to have a tragic battlefield accident during the campaign to kill off the last of the Orks or something, if you know what I mean.

 

But remember... thinking like the Emperor... you've got terrible enemies to overcome. Fading xenos empires, corrupt and inhuman transhuman pocket empires, and maybe even the Chaos Gods themselves. Sometimes it's nice to have a monster on your side.

I agree with so much of this.

 

I feel like the Emoeror knew *exactly* what Curze was and what he was to become, or at least in the direction if not the specifics.

 

Conquering an entire galaxy requires a monumental amount of manpower and resources, and in this regard, Curze and his legion was the perfect weapon. Instead of years of campaigning, terrified systems would immediately capitulate upon an 8th legion fleet entering their sensor range. Even on a smaller scale, the terrorist tactics the legion uses puts their own legionaries and resources at minimal risk with lateral collateral damage.

 

Sure you're left with terrified followers jumping at every shadow, but you're also left with a fully functional planet (or system, or whatvever you're trying to take over) that does not have to be repopulated, rebuilt or recalibrated. It's immediately ready to begin paying tithe to the Imperial war machine.

 

And if you know that the last bunch of guys that slipped up or rebelled got disemboweled and hung with their own entrails on planet-wide national TV? Chances are that you'll do a decent job of filling your quota on time.

 

Ours is the legion who grew too keen, and our master grew terrified at the potential of the perfect weapon we had become.

[Tenebris]

All astartes despite their legion of origin are monsters by "human" standards. This is a fact. Some embraced this nature, some did not. It is not only the Night Lords but also the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus who changed with the influx of murderers and gangs in their ranks, the Dark Angels changed too with the induction of Calibanites and so on.

 

The other fact which I think we most agree with is that once the Crusade was over the Emperor would have staged a terminal destruction of the legions, perhaps sparing some but certainly not all of his creations. If you want to rule an Empire having a vastly powerful and nigh immortal warrior caste is not good for business. Sure Guilly proved that the marines can be more than just soldiers but so several of his brothers proved that an astartes is little more than a monstrous killer machine.

 

My observation is that the Night Lords begun as a template for the "judge" or "law enforcer" legion and to enforce laws you really need cynical, ruthless and sometime amoral beings to enforce it properly. In the Emperor's shoes I would have done the same, nothing beats the bad cop attitude when comes to law enforcement, especially when you have to enforce your will across the galaxy. It is not the punishment itself that concerned the Emperor, nor its execution, but what mattered was the "fear of punishment", fear which keeps people in line. In this concept Kurze is the perfect law enforcer. Unquestioning, loyal, ruthless, amoral and effective. The only fault that the VIIIth legion had is that it was perhaps too good at their job.

 

The induction of Nostramans did not change a lot of things for the NL, the FW books tell that theirs was one of the swiftest assimilation between the two astartes subcultures so this tells us that both the Terran, or to better phrase it, pre-Nostraman marines were not so different in character from the Nostramans. I think what actually happened to the Night Lords it is not their Primarch, nor Nostramo but simply the typecast in their role as the premier "law enforcer" legion. Theirs was not the task to fight battles of conquest, they were simply a tool of terror, control and again... law enforcement. When you torture people for a hundred years, when they dared to defy an imperial edict or dared to rebel to the "rightful rule", and you do this with a glee, this does not make you a monster, afterall the Night Lords followed and enforced the Imperial Law, this makes you a bad cop on steroids, which is not necessary a bad thing.

 

So my theory is the following, would the Emperor allow the Night Lords to partake in more ordinary, regular missions of conquest that the other legions performed, where their butchery was glorious and just in broad light, perhaps,... perhaps the Night Lords would not become such monsters. But since most of the VIIIth legionnaires performed the bad cop role for so long that they knew nothing else... well they have actually become bad cops themselves, and came to enjoy it.

 

The way I see the VIIIth legion is the following:

 

You have a magistrate. This magistrate comes from the university filled with visions of just laws, clear laws and a strong belief in the order of his state, in this case the Imperium. When confronted with the reality of his job he understands that laws are impersonal, amoral things which while they enforce order they also create resentment and erode the spirit. Looking at the same magistrate some years in the future we find a wholly different person, a jaded and ruthless being who still believes in the letter of law but is now completely void of any affection for the spirit of the law. Now when said magistrate enforces a judgment it is a ruthless thing, sometimes even a pleasure and in time he came to love the look of despair of his victims when his judgment is passed. A ten years from here the same magistrate lives only for this brief moment of power over the person he is sent to judge, he revels in it, he enjoys it, but what he enjoys more is to pass the sentence and condemn a criminal for his sins, in a brutal, bloody manner.

 

Now extend the above across the life of an astartes which was typecast in the role of the magistrate and law enforcer for almost a century, consider that maybe or maybe not his genes echo in sympathy with his calling and pair that with an origin, a childhood spent in darkness, among beat gangs, skinflayers, corpse stealers and so on, where the myth of law is so overpowering, where this aspect of righteous retribution is so an alien concept that when he is confronted with the majesty and the role of the law enforcer in a lawless galaxy, the effect is prodigal to say the least.

 

That is IMO what happened to the Night Lords legion. Not their primarch, nor their Nostraman kin, but this typecast role of law enforcer and arbitrator which soon lost its meaning and purpose, becoming simply a means to an end... to look your victim in the eye and savor the power you have over it, the judgement you will pass. Sometime, a long time ago, that judgement meant something to you, now it is simply a way to justify your amoral pleasures and power over people.  

[Balthamal]

Child of Night also sheds some light on this perception. The Terran Astartes appeared to believe that there was indeed a higher purpose to their acts of murder and desecration, which when you think of the scale of the Great Crusade and it's goals it's true, especially when it came to human worlds who refused. It's no good strutting around carrying the biggest, meanest stick. Eventually you have to prove you're willing to use it which is the purpose of ALL the Legions, it just so happens that the VIII were more suited to deal with those who would live under Imperial rule after all was said and done. Zharost himself states that justice should be blind - spot on. 

 

Would the Emperor have done away with the VIII if this had remained the case? Possibly. I think it safe to say that Angron would certainly have passed beyond the point of no return but who among the others would have been less than happy with an ascendent Imperium ruling the galaxy? Mortarion? Corax? Neither were a fan of tyrants and unchallenged rule could be seen as tyranny with the right prodding. The Khan? Another one not a fan of tyrants but I think his loyalty would win out in the end. Fulgrim could have chafed in time whilst Perturabo would have been alright since it's likely he would have been given the chance to build instead of destroy. Curze though, I think was dead come what may in the end. His Legion would have served a purpose but with his erraticness and insanity it would likely be only a matter of time before Russ was summoned again. And that adds to it - The Emperor has Russ - loyal, honest, prepared to carry out any order regardless of the consequences. Why would he take the chance on one unstable son when he has Russ to do the same duty if called upon. 

 

This is why I disagree with the above point about the Night Lords being destined to end the way they did. The Legion spent a century butchering populations, leaving fear shattered worlds in their wake but there's no suggestion anywhere that they actually enjoyed it during that time. It was a job, their purpose. It's only when Curze rejoins the Legion that the downward spiral begins, I say begins because to my mind until this point, they were still firmly on the leash - without a Primarch there's no potential conflict of loyalty between father and Emperor as would become apparent later. When Curze takes rulership of the VIII over, the assimilation is rapid because he has the same purpose as the Legion - peace through fear of retribution, society through unbiased, impartial justice. What is slower to take shape is his other facet - enjoyment. He might not acknowledge it, even up until Sevatar stands in his dreams and throws the accusation into his teeth but it's there because it was part of his upbringing on Nostramo. He wouldn't have spent years in growing up on quite probably the most crime infested world in the galaxy without getting a pretty good idea that most of the criminals enjoyed it.

 

Of course once he departed and Nostramo collapsed back into the dark ages, the whole facet of enjoyment, of exalting in the power over the helpless, would have begun to coil through the Legion as more and more of the Terrans would fellin battle and be replaced by Nostramans. Once that descent had begun it was inevitable how it would turn out. It's almost like a self perpetuating cycle we see in 40k in the battle against "Chaos" - in order to beat it you have to understand it, by understanding it you know how to use it, by knowing how to use it, you realise you HAVE to use it because nothing else will work, by using it you become part of the problem and have to be put down in the end. Or to use a different analogy, to protect the sheep you have to catch the wolf, and it takes a wolf to catch  a wolf. But there's no place for a wolf among the sheep.

[ElectricPaladin]

Btw, my favorite "reason" for the traitor Primarchs doing what they did was the idea that they reasoned "well, we are beings made for war, and we will have no place in the world of peace that we were made to bring about... so we'd better make sure that never happens." In their minds, they were doing their brothers and the Astartes a favor. Look at all the fighting they've managed to get in over the last ten thousand years! They never would have had that opportunity without the Heresy.

 

Now, what I would like to see more of is what the loyal Primarchs did to justify their loyalty. We know that Guilliman was in denial, and actually managed to prove that Primarchs and Astartes might have limited utility as bureaucrats and logisticians, but what about the rest of them? Did Russ actually have a limited enough imagination that he never thought about it? Did Dorn's cynicism extend to not really believing in the golden age of peace? Was far-sighted Sanguinius resigned to his own assassination or at least obsolescence? What about Khan and Corax?

 

I've got to tell you... this is the alternate Hersey I'm interested in. Not just a retelling of the original with the parts shuffled around, but this: the wars finally end, the galaxy is at peace and belongs to mankind... and then the Emperor sends Russ to kill Angron. Curze and his Legion disappear into deep space, certain that they are next. And now the rest of the Primarchs have to face that they were nothing but tools, and that they now live in a galaxy that no longer needs them...

 

Unless, Chaos whispers, they can arrange for it to need them. Forever.

[Chronotonic]

Now this is what I was hoping for with replies

 

different points of view covering the same subject...

 

and honestly I think we are all valid in our points because of the information we have available is the best thing we can come up with...but it makes you think 

 

Why...

 

we all come to the same answer the Emperor in his wisdom knew that something like that would happen...why not fix it in the beginning or nip it in the tail right then and there...sanction the legion...

 

What did the other 2 do that was worse then what the World Eaters were doing or the Night Lords.  were their actions so much worse that no one speaks of it.  But then Cruze is not that bad...NOT THAT BAD...that he is left out there doing what he does best...

[ElectricPaladin]

Well, the Emperor doesn't care about them doing something bad. So probably it was a genetic flaw, something about the geneseed turning them into monsters?

[Tiberius Cato]

Dorn may have believed there would be unending war, his right hand man Sigismund thought so. Sigismund tells his thoughts to Loken concerning the "what happens after the Great Crusade" and it sparks some controversy.

 

I'm on mobile and can't make spoiler tags, but what I refer to is found in Horus Rising, if anyone was curious.

[Flint13]

I think most can agree that the more radical legions like the 12th and the 8th were allowed to continue to operate bc they were the weapons the Emperor needed at the time, and they produced impressive results. But there is a very plain difference between us and the Twelfth. We had the choice, and we chose the darkness.

 

More than anything, we are the monsters the emperor created to terrify those who know no fear. Worse even than the sons of Angron, because we had the choice. The 12th are lost to the nails, but we chose to become monsters. We became everything the emperor asked of us. But we didn't see it as just a command to be obeyed. We became that weapon of terror and we glorified in it. We perfected it. We became it in body and soul like no other. We looked at the paths before us and decided, though fractally, that we would be the masters of all that is terror, to rob that power from others and use it as the most potent weapon of mass destruction to ever have been birthed by the hands of men.

 

While others haunt the dark and use the shadows, we *are* the darkness of all men. *We* are why the dark is feared, for all the generations that come after, for time immemorial. The other legions can only simper and insult to ease the fear of what we are. For all men, human or transhuman, fear us, and all men are wise to do so.

 

^_^

[HellChyld]

what you see as a problem just shows my Nostromian eyes a sharper edge to gut the imperium with and raise the level of fear to ear spliting scream level. Kurze didnt baby his legion like Guiliman. we did what we were told and then turned on. let it all burn till either the throne is in flames or the last of us bleed out our last. Peace sells but I'm not Buying.

[Chronotonic]

soooo more or less

you

that

them

this

him

her

it

also this is a perfect how varied our legion was.

Some say we do not care, others are like we are just doing our job others are just legionaries doing what was told to them by the Emperor.

but we are all right...

-You put Guiliygirls legion together you come up with the same answer.

-The Fist will say the samething as the other fist with the Black Templar more swinging them talking

-the Wolves will all howl together

-The Iron Fist will go binary code with their answer with the 0 and 1s

-The Dark Angel Legion will tell you the samething if they tell you anything at all

-The Blood Angels will talk about some nice and pretty

-Salamanders will all worry about the normal humans

-The White Scars will zip by in formation

-The Raven Guard will come out of the shadows together as a team

--------

The Night Lords do what they please...by man, claw, pack, company, chapter, Legion, ad-hoc squad, Black Shield

[Leif Bearclaw]

What did the other 2 do that was worse then what the World Eaters were doing or the Night Lords.  were their actions so much worse that no one speaks of it.  But then Cruze is not that bad...NOT THAT BAD...that he is left out there doing what he does best...

I quite like the idea that at least one of the lost fell to some alien/technological corruption, and were purged to both protect the Imperium and suppress the knowledge that the Emperor's creations were fallible to that degree. Imagine the Crusade uncovers the XI Primarch, only to find he has been embraced by an advanced culture that integrate soulless AIs into their brains (akin to the Cybrans from Supreme Commander). This civilisation stands anathema to the Imperial ideal, and even the presence of a Primarch isn't enough to permit such deviance to be tolerated, but of course the Primarch stands with his people, and thus is purged along with them. Or worse, the Crusade doesn't realise how deviant the Primarch's culture is, and it only comes to light after he's taken command and spread the symbiont technology through his Legion (akin to Angron and the Nails). Now you have an entire Legion tainted, and that's a PR blow the Imperium doesn't need once the Legion has been purged (probably by the Wolves).

 

Or maybe you have the 2nd Legion falling under the dominion of the Enslavers, actively fighting against other crusade forces at the behest of their alien puppet masters, only being brought down when the SoS (maybe the Emperor in person) get involved supporting Legion forces. I can't see the Emperor being OK with the news of that spreading to the wider Imperium.

 

More on topic, I think Balthamal has it about right. Once Curze came in, and the VIII started really enjoying their work, that's when they started the slippery slope from 'Fear is the Weapon' to 'Fear is the Objective'.

[Sunwell]

Interesting discussion so far.

 

I am going to take a moment to reflect on some larger questions regarding this topic.

 

What I keep pondering is this: what was the Emperor's plan with the 20 Infant Primarchs originally. However all-knowing the Emperor is, he did not foresee that his project was going to be sucked into the chaos vortex and scattered by the powers of Chaos. I imagine he must have had some idea how he was going to teach his "youth" Primarchs and mold them into the Generals he saw best fit. I do believe that whatever His plan was, he planned to have generals with different strengths and abilities. Why? No matter where they ended up, all Primarchs have a different physical appearance. If you wanted all Primarchs to think and act the same, why not create 20 identical clones. Humanity is not like the Borg or the Tyranids so even if the Emperor had been in charge of their upbringing, the Primarchs would have been individuals with their own set of strengths and (arguably) weaknesses. Of course, i assume that the personality spectrum would have been considerably narrower had they all had the same "boot camp" as opposed their different upbringings on the 20 different planets.

 

As it was, most or all Primarchs turned out to be a product of their upbringing (environment), including Curze. And once the Emperor found his 20 sons, since he could no longer create another new batch of Primarchs (for whatever reason), I suppose even He had no choice but to live by the old saying "a general goes to war with the army he has". 

 

And so, the rest is (future) history.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

that pic man LOL

[Noctem Cultor]

We were never going to live after the Crusade was won, we were a weapon needed at the time and then we would have been put down. We were trained this way, our geneseed isn't the issue its the fact we have never lived in the light and that effects you.

[Carrack]

Sure we all know the VIII Legion was/is made up of murderers, sociopaths, and generally not nice people, but I don't see how this disqualifies them for a post great crusade existence in the Imperium.

First the very existence of the VIII Legion would be useful in maintaining order in what was always destined to be an autocratic, if enlightened society. The same methods they used to win worlds over would be put to use in ensuring loyalty and if need be reinstating dominion.

 

Secondly, plenty of other legions had similarly, if not as extreme disreputable backgrounds of its legionnaires, whose post crusade existence was never in question. Notably, the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. They may not have been underhive gangers but they were certainly savage.

Thirdly, the loyalty of the VIII Legion, or any one other legion for that matter would presumably be kept in check by the other 17 legions as well as the remaining mortal forces and the Emperor himself. The only way the Night Lords would have any hope of survival in rebellion would be if exactly what happened occurred, a primarch would be able to form a coalition to rise in rebellion.

Lastly I would argue that the existence of the Night Lords after the great Crusade wasn't destined to end. However all the legions would inevitably be slowly shrunk in strength to match the needs of a no longer expansionist humanity.