How to Counter Tank Spam?

[Fatespinner]

So, I'm a Chaos player (CSM & Daemons) and I play casual games and only against three other local people currently.  One of them plays Orks, and I have almost no problem against him 80% of the time.  The other two players are Eldar and Astra Militarum.  Both of these two I can almost never beat because they run pure mechanized lists.  They have the bare minimum number of troops for force organization and then fill out their army lists with tanks, tanks, and more tanks (and artillery... and maybe some more tanks).

 

Against the Eldar player I commonly see 3-4 Wave Serpents, a Fire Prism or two, and sometimes a Falcon and/or a Crimson Hunter.  He takes minimum squads of Dire Avengers just to get the Serpents and sometimes maybe a squad of Fire Dragons.  Sometimes he'll also throw out a Wraithknight depending on the point value we're playing at.

 

Against the AM player, it's 3-5 Leman Russes, a battery of Wyverns, and a Manticore or two depending on point value.  He usually runs psyker support with his command squad and a couple heavy weapons teams in his minimum troop deployments.

 

In a 1v1 fight, I've only managed to beat them once each, and that was only because they ran atypical lists.  The Guard player tried Hellhounds instead of his usual Russ spam and the Eldar player.... used some Space Wolves he started picking up (I have never actually seen his Eldar force lose a game).  Against their "main" lists, it's a slaughter.  There's never enough cover (they actively refuse to play with more than like 4-5 pieces of terrain on the table) and they basically just sit back and butcher everything at extreme range.  It's not even a case of victory points or contesting objectives, they just table me.  They don't need troops because they just murder everything.  Half the time, the AM player doesn't even USE his movement phase.  He just sits still and shoots all game, and it works.

 

I've tried fast units, hordes, heavy armor, and flyers.  So far, FMCs seem to fare the best, but for equal point value I'm usually not able to field more than 2-3 of them against twice as many tanks.  Plus they have to land before they assault, which usually leads to them getting ventilated by massed plasma fire or Bladestorm.

 

So.... how is anyone supposed to deal with this?  CSM and Daemons don't really have any "artillery platform" units to counter with, though the Soul Grinders I've used did pretty well, they still cost way more than any of their units and don't pack as much firepower so they lose out to sheer mass fire, especially once you get a Perfect Timing psyker involved.  Especially against the Eldar, this is getting to the point where it's not even fun to play anymore.

[Axagoras]

3 units of oblits and 3 units of chaos termies with combi meltas and a coms relay

[brother_contagion]

There's never enough cover (they actively refuse to play with more than like 4-5 pieces of terrain on the table) and they basically just sit back and butcher everything at extreme range. 

 

I'd say that's a big problem and part of the reason you're not doing so well. They are taking advantage of your army's need for cover by refusing to play you in game with decent cover on the table. You're basically playing on their home turf. Even though it may be difficult, I'd insist on more terrain. Those guys just sound like they're playing to win and don't really care if you have any fun.

 

EDIT: where I play, we usually use 7-10 terrain pieces (though nothing that would be too big and awkward to make it in impossible to navigate the table), and it has always worked out well for both players.

 

3 units of oblits and 3 units of chaos termies with combi meltas and a coms relay

 

I'd agree with that as well. Try some DSing units.

[Fatespinner]

I have used Termicide squads and DSing Obliterators before.  They often manage to down one vehicle before being killed.  Granted, it does force them to redirect a lot of their fire for a turn, but when the smoke clears I've almost always lost more than they have.  I will try a heavier deep striking list next time, assuming I have the points to make it work.

 

Our usual method of terrain placement is that each player gets to place 3 pieces of terrain on the board, making the usual deployment 6 pieces.  However, they will often either refuse to place any of their 3 pieces, or if I insist, they place them on the absolute edge of the board; usually in a corner.  I try to create walls and areas through which to make my advance, but it's never enough with only a handful of terrain objects to place.

[WarriorFish]

That's rubbish, the fact he can stand and shoot and win so convincingly should be a clear sign the table is too light on terrain. Guard doesn't stand and shoot anymore because in a normal game it shouldn't work. I'm afraid I don't know too much about Chaos but I know Guard - you'll need to get in close and assault. All his tanks will crumble before a Marine assault it's just a matter of getting there. Expensive units like Termies will be playing into his hand where his fire power will hurt you with every failed roll, numbers is what will win the day as even a standard Marine is more than a match for a Guardsman.

[AnvilofFenris]

As a sometime Guard player who also likes more than his fair share of tanks, I would say the biggest problem you seem to have is the other players. Refusing to place terrain pieces after a specified number has been agreed? I'd call that a no-no personally. Not really in the spirit of the game and all that. A heavy armour list shouldn't be as unbeatable as that, I know I've suffered from the predations of Melta bomb armed berserkers in the past. My suggestions would be to insist on fair placement of terrain, which I'm pretty sure is covered in the terrain section of the rule book, and has been said before, deep striking some hard hitting units in behind to take advantage of that soft rear armour. Throwing numbers at them, as WarriorFish suggested, may work, though with that many blast markers you need to be prepared to take some heavy casualties on the way in.

[Dam13n]

they actively refuse to play with more than like 4-5 pieces of terrain on the table

Then refuse to play them unless there is more terrain on the table. If enough people in your group then follow your example they'll either have to concede and allow more terrain on the table when they play, or they'll never get a game.  4-5 pieces isn't enough for half a table.  I usually place anywhere from 8-10 pieces of area terrain (ruins, woods, craters etc.) plus the same again of obstacles (walls, hedges, barricades etc.) as that evens the playing field for shooting and assault based armies.  Everything is spread out evenly to make sure it's as fair as possible.

 

As far as list goes.  Obliterators, Vindicators, (Nurgle) Bikers (with Meltaguns) and a Nurgle Lord with Fist / Claw on Bike are all good units to have against pretty much anything.  With Plague Marine troops and a Malefic Sorcerer (using Crimson Slaughter to get the Voices upgrade so he doesn't kill himself through Perils) to keep the flow of models coming onto the table.

 

Another option would be to do a Raider rush list.  Something like:  Chaos Lord in TA with Lightning Claw / Chainfist, 3 Terminators with 2 Power Fists and 1 Chainfist in Land Raider, 3 Terminators with 2 Power Fists and 1 Chainfist in Land Raider, 3 Terminators with 2 Power Fists and 1 Chainfist in Land Raider, 10 Cultists, 10 Cultists, 3 Maulerfiends.  This should be around the 1800pt mark.  With the Land Raiders going full speed turn 1 (18" including Flat Out) and the Maulers running behind them (12+D6" including the run).  This means combat in turn 2 with loads of stuff that will mangle vehicles with contemptible ease.

 

I'd also suggest using dynamic objective missions when playing them (especially the Militarum) to try and force them away from castling up.

[knife&fork]

The great thing about tank spam is that if you're mobile then the opponent just made you a favor by bringing a bunch of extra LoS blockers!  .....that will also double as dangerous terrain on later turns ;)

[Hellios]

You should have enough terrain to cover 1/4 to 1/3 of the board depending on how big the terrain is. On a 4 x4 board at least one piece of decent sized terrain should block LoS.

 

I got bored of how people always seem to deploy terrain in the same way... So I came up with a way to randomly deploy terrain. Again this is based on a 4 x 4 board, but it could be modified for bigger boards.

 

Player 1 takes the biggest bit of scenery. Roll 1d6 + scatter. Roll a number of dice = to the result on the d6. The scenery moves the total of those dice rolls from the centre of the board in the direction of the scatter dice. If a hit is scorex player 1 may choose the direction it moves in.

 

Player 2 repeats with the second largest bit of terrain.

 

And so on until all of the terrain has been deployed. Make adjustments to distance if a bit of scenery should go on top of another, like you would with a droppod landing in impassable terrain.

 

It doesn't always give a balanced board, but it helps keeps things interesting, and it stops the barren middle board, or X pattern of scenery deployment.

[Leonaides]

I suggest a new plan. You set up the terrain then they pick a side for deployment. They're cheating the spirit of the game, plain and simple.

[Leonaides]

or alternatively (if you're feeling particularly nasty) - let them get as far as settign up their army before the game starts and then sod off, leaving them looking like billy no-mates...

 

This only really works if you have something else to do though - tarring your eyelids open maybe?

[Axagoras]

lol this reminds me of how tau players were crying at lvo and adepticon after this codex was redone, because they wanted the TOs to remove the line of sight blocking terrain from the table because it was unfair that they couldn't see the entire board....

[WarriorFish]

This is an issue with how your opponents play the game, but as much as it'd feel nice to teach them a lesson it doesn't solve anything. Communication is always key. Talk to them about the terrain set up, point out the rules and most important of all explain that you're not happy with it as it is as you think it gives them an unfair advantage. If they don't consider your point of view you can tell them that it's preventing you from enjoying the game.

 

Never forget that the final answer always lies you with you - if you play the game you are accepting the terms presented (in this case unfair terrain set up). You are also free to decline the game for whatever reason you like, so don't be afraid to tell them you're not interested in a game that isn't fair.

[Kilofix]

Seems like these kinds of players want to win more than they want to enjoy a game. Forgive my griping, but I wouldn't even do them the honor of calling them 'competitive' as that implies they actually want competition.

 

But, if you had to play them:

 

• I would have a base with bare-bones Terminators - since they're AP2 and they don't need Cover and very few Tanks actually have AP2 (except for the Vanquisher which is one shot and the Demolisher which is close range).
• Then, as Axa suggests, I would drop Oblits, Mayhem Pack, Decimators, etc. on top of them

[GreyCrow]

Yep, they're using an unfair advantage of a low amount of terrain. The 40k BRB has a method for determining the number of terrain pieces per 12x12" on the table, where you roll a D3 and place that amount of terrain, which means at LEAST 6 terrain pieces on a 6x4' board... and up to 18.

 

If they refuse to play you with more terrain pieces, then you're better off not playing them at all. If there's no other way for you to play that, then there are a couple ways around it :

- In open terrain warfare, the strength of the armour is always more important than the number of models or the mobility. Get 3+ Land Raiders in your army to deliver your units in relative safety. AV14 is tough to break unless you have a high amount of Melta weaponry, and 3+ Land Raiders is going to be very difficult to counter. Bring Vincidators as well in order to pump out Large Blasts shots. There is a reason why modern line battles in open terrain consist mainly of an armoured division : you want your tank

- He is using a range advantage to shoot your army piecemeal until it reaches charge range, so use everything you can to negate his range advantage : that includes Deep striking, fliers, transports, fast moving units, and most importantly any special rule you can get to start up close to him. That includes Huron's warlord trait as well as Ahriman's. If you can, roll Ahriman with as many powers as you can in the Telepathy table or Divination table in order to get you Invulnerable saves or Invisibility.

- Deep striking in the middle of his lines is a must : send sacrificial units that will scare him and can make a dent on the turn they arrive (Obliterators are good for that, just pick the MM and Drop in his side or rear armour, as well as Terminators with Power Fists). The goal here is not to take out his Tanks, but to force him to deal with that unit before the rest of your force arrives.

- Take Bikes too ! Nurgle bikers with T6 are a pain to deal with, negate his range advantage and drown them under melta goodness, and a Power fist in assault. Bikes are better than jump troops in open terrain, for the simple reason that you can Jink in order to get yourself a 4+ cover save, at the expense of your shooting (which is why a Power Fist will help deal with the Tanks). With a board clustered with terrain, jump troops are typically better because you ignore impassable terrain, while bikes can't.

- Finally, try to deal with the Tanks in melee rather than in the shooting phase. Krak grenades can make a mince of AV10 and 11, which all of the afore mentionned tanks have. Throw in a few meltabombs or Power Fists in a unit and you'll make short work orf any tank presented to you.

 

Your goal is going to be to close the gap as fast as possible, so flat out Turn 1 with your 3 Land Raiders will get you almost right in his face, for a Turn 2 assault. In addition, try to deploy most of your forces next to the Tanks with the longest range : that way, you might deny the other Tanks shots in the first turn, while denying the range advantage the other tanks will get.

 

I hope that helps, but to me the simplest reason would be to reason with them about the terrain pieces. Strategically, tell other players at your club that these guys try to power game by removing any disadvantage the board might have. That might reduces the number of opponents they'll have. Additionally, offer them to play with a bare board and point to them how stupid it is !

Finally, you could try reverse psychology : telling them that they are too scared to win in a board with a "legal" amount of terrain tells everybody that they are awful tacticians and they are cowards, with no chance of winning on a regular game board. Provoke them to a regular game and you might up your chances ;)

[Ishagu]

I would spam about 5 flyers and 2 Imperial Knights :-/

[Fatespinner]

The 40k BRB has a method for determining the number of terrain pieces per 12x12" on the table, where you roll a D3 and place that amount of terrain, which means at LEAST 6 terrain pieces on a 6x4' board... and up to 18.

 

Is this in the 7th Edition BRB?  If so, can you provide me a page number?  This could be the clencher right here.  We never could find any "official" rules for terrain placement, so obviously we missed something.

[GreyCrow]

 

The 40k BRB has a method for determining the number of terrain pieces per 12x12" on the table, where you roll a D3 and place that amount of terrain, which means at LEAST 6 terrain pieces on a 6x4' board... and up to 18.

 

Is this in the 7th Edition BRB?  If so, can you provide me a page number?  This could be the clencher right here.  We never could find any "official" rules for terrain placement, so obviously we missed something.

 

 

My bad, it's actually not in the 7th BRB, but it was in the 6th edition BRB, described exactly as I pointed it out. If you still have it at hand, I guess this is a good source for inspiration !

 

I double checked and the current paragraph in Preparing for Battle seems to talk about a gentleman's agreement with the "primary goal" of "creating an interesting terrain and scenery". Unfortunately, I'm unable to find any other counter indications...

 

Alternatively, offer your opponent to take turns in placing 3d6 terrain pieces before rolling to determine deployment sides. That's a fair number with an average between 9 and 12 terrain pieces of any kind and will make the battle more engaging, other than hat I'm afraid that there's no way to avoid power gaming rather than showing them this thread and showing how highly the internet think about their skill of winning a game with no terrain ;)

[Fatespinner]

Yeah, driving two Land Raiders across 36" of open terrain directly towards 3 Leman Russ Vanquishers sitting in cover with camo netting is not an experience I'm keen to repeat.

[GreyCrow]

Still Land Raiders are your best bet imho, along with deep Striking Raptors and Terminators with meltas and combi-meltas.

 

In addition, what you can do is set up the board and battlefield in a fashion that gives you an advantage :

- place all the objective markers in a side of the board

- place a very large line of sight blocking piece of terrain in the middle that will give you some additionnal cover saves

 

In half the cases, the opposent will have that board side and will tend to deploy all around it to cover fire lanes in all the table because of that large blocking terrain

That means that either he splits his firepower evenly, either he specializes each lane.

You'll start in the middle if you go first then steer towards the lane that shots better odds, effectively diminishing firepower from half his army

 

In the half you get the table side with ibjectives, make sure to still choose a lane and eventually make sure that you also have placed a few cover granting terrain bits on that side !

 

In short, make him have to expose himself if he wants to deal at most efficiency with his units :) In other words, choose the ground you'll be fighting and take the most advantage of it even if options are limites.

 

Besides, having a very asymmetrical table helps for nice scenery !

[Altasmurf]

Hate to say it but those guys are poor winners, with that little terrain you might as well just go play chess. Also 3 vanquishers shouldn't stop a raider over 2 turns only 3 will it and they need a lot luck to roll that magic 6 to kill your raider. Also it's probably a safe bet those tanks are close enough to be multicharged so make em pay.

[Axagoras]

well they could be the fw ones with the co axial gun and bs 4 so good chance of hitting, good chance of penning and a 5 still immobilizes it.

 

But seriously guys, you HAVE to play with terrain that blocks line of sight, not just gives cover saves. otherwise just play on a empty board lol.

[GreyCrow]

Well, if he's Platini with FW models then perhaps there's a good FW counter to that, like dreadclaws or fire Raptors ?

[Fatespinner]

Also 3 vanquishers shouldn't stop a raider over 2 turns only 3 will it and they need a lot luck to roll that magic 6 to kill your raider. Also it's probably a safe bet those tanks are close enough to be multicharged so make em pay.

 

Tank Commander Pask was in one of them, and the rest were part of his unit.  This makes them all twin-linked, and Pask himself rerolls armor penetration.  It worked.

 

And no, they were nowhere near charge range of anything.  I had to drive through 36" of open terrain (board dimensions were 4' x 6', deployed at opposite ends lengthwise).

[WarriorFish]

Pask doesn't make his squadron twin-linked, it's just him getting to re-roll To Hit rolls in his Vanquisher (along with the re-roll to glance or pen he always gets). If he's the Warlord then they have Preferred Enemy against a single codex's units but that's all.