Super-Heavies and CSM

[Fatespinner]

With 2500 points available, knowing in advance that you were going to be up against some serious heavy armor (including one or more super-heavy vehicles), what kind of lists would you build if your options were limited to only C:CSM, C:CD, and CS:BL?  I played a game like this yesterday (it was a stronghold assault mission) and clearly whatever I am doing, I am going about it all wrong.  We ended up playing two games because I was crushed so badly the first game that I conceded on turn 2.  The second game had the same result, even after reconfiguring terrain and even with the game type dictating that I got to go first both times.  My opponents were Eldar and Imperial Guard.  There was a Baneblade involved that had a S10, AP1 apocalyptic blast weapon.  A single shot from it largely obliterated my anti-vehicle weaponry, while elsewhere my tri-las Predator got pulverized by a Leman Russ executioner.  Even running two Maulerfiends, only one of them survived long enough to complete a charge and even then only dealt 3 points of damage to the Baneblade before getting flattened.

 

Since my ability to build CSM/Daemons lists is apparently flawed in the extreme, I'd like to see what other more experienced players would set up against this lineup.  I had been running a pair of Marine squads with lascannons, a full-sized squad of Obliterators, 2 Maulerfiends (1 Mauler and a tri-las Pred in the 2nd game), and Noise Marines with a Blastmaster plus a Chaos Lord with the Eye of Night (and a Flying Daemon Prince with it in the 2nd game).

 

Enemy forces consisted of 2 Eldar Fire Prisms, 2 Eldar Wraithknights, 2 Leman Russ tanks (one Executioner, one Punisher) and a Baneblade... plus some mandatory troop slots that didn't factor into the equation at all.

[RolandTHTG]

Do you have access to any of the first apoclypse books? There are a couple good formations and upgrades available in it.

[Warsmith Aznable]

When you say your options are limited to C:CSM, C:D, and CS:BL, does that mean that you cannot use datasheets from IA13 or the Lords of War choices from Escalation?

 

If that is the case, I guess I would go Unbound and load up on Oblits and Termicide.

 

Otherwise I would use IA13 to get a couple of Relic Predators with Plasma Destroyers to lob around plasma, or maybe use the R&H list to have my own super-heavies to counter enemy super-heavies.

 

Or use the Stronghold Assault to set up some void shields that you can deploy under to mitigate his initial shooting advantage.

[40kChrista]

When you say your options are limited to C:CSM, C:D, and CS:BL, does that mean that you cannot use datasheets from IA13 or the Lords of War choices from Escalation?

 

If that is the case, I guess I would go Unbound and load up on Oblits and Termicide.

 

Otherwise I would use IA13 to get a couple of Relic Predators with Plasma Destroyers to lob around plasma, or maybe use the R&H list to have my own super-heavies to counter enemy super-heavies.

 

Or use the Stronghold Assault to set up some void shields that you can deploy under to mitigate his initial shooting advantage.

 

A lot of this.

 

Personally, I would love to take a Stormlord, but given the R&H list from IA:13 maybe some Russ Vanquishers or Annihilators would do the trick.  AV 14 front and some good weapons in squadrons.  The CSM Rapier batteries are pretty tasty as well.

[Dysorange]

Bring a Warhoud or a Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne and charge that Baneblade once more.

 

Watch crying ensue when the Scorpion one shot the Baneblade!

[Emperors Immortals]

Check out the dice abide, dude ran a scorpion and really highlighted the sort of support it needs to be effective.

 

If you just need normal units, I'd say termicide squads, spawn and bikers. Swamp ise tanks and melts everything else.

 

Then there's hellblades, surprisingly useful so far but not sure vs. TheBlade.

[Lucio]

Land Raider Spartan with chainfist weilding terminators hidden inside and a Helbrute Mayhem pack dropping in via Deep Strike with multi meltas to get under the 12" range. Risky for sure, but hopefully close enough that the shot scatters back onto him.

[Gumo9]

Lord of Skulls gets my vote. Utterly devastating and as hard as a big bag of very hard things !

 

G

[Montuhotep]

Don't forget that if your oppo is running a super-heavy and you're not then by the rules set down in Escalation, you are allowed to roll on the traits table in that book instead of the normal ones. May not help at all, but it just might....

[the jeske]

There isn't any good way for pure chaos to counter LoW. If anyone runs any it will be hard to get withing 12" range with a MM and from turn 2 on wards they will be runing under invisibility and over 2250 they will either have bunkers or a landing pad to stand on.

 

Ah and at more then 1850, never think that 2 of anything non titan sized will get the job done. If you want to run maulerfiends run 4-5, or 3 but 3-5 same class support units[hell brute formations].

If oblits [actualy kind of a bad against LoW] then run 12+ and spread them.

[minionboy]

My ears are ringing!

 

My normal 1850 list with no lord of war usually has no problem handing my opponents lords of war...

 

Chaos Lord: Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, lightning claw, power fist, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption

3x5 Chaos Marines: Plasma gun, in rhino

9 Bikes: 2 meltaguns, mark of khorne, icon of wrath, champion with power weapon and meltabombs

2x5 Chaos Spawn

3 Maulerfiends: one has tendrils

Helbrute Mayhem Pack: multi-meltas and thunder hammers

 

Against things like stompas that are going to get close, a couple helbrutes will do a surprising amount of damage.  Against ones that sit further back, you generally want to hug terrain and let the Helbrutes work on it.  1/3 of the time your Helbrutes come in, they're going to be double firing Multi-meltas, so that's pretty damn great when it happens at a good time.

 

I've run the Brass Scorpion quite a lot too, but you really don't want him getting in a fight with a Stompa or Knight, bringing S10 to a D fight isn't a good proposition.  When I do run the scorpion, he will absolutely be the primary focus of most of the enemy firepower that can hurt it, meaning anything else you take is going to have to absorb the brunt of the S7 firepower.

 

The Lord of Skulls is also a very nice super heavy, but it's very awkward to use.  If it gets in a fight with a blob of infantry, it's totally screwed, since it cannot stomp, so much of the time when I use it, he's sitting back, plugging away with the skullhurler and daemongore cannon (which is pretty awesome).

 

The trick to facing super heavies is that often times, fighting a super heavy with a super heavy means you'll win big or lose big, neither of which is really a reliable or tactically sound proposition.  The list I run above (which is 1850), tends to work more reliably for me than trying to beat down a super heavy with another super heavy.

 

Hope that helps!

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'd say fight fire with fire, if your opponent is bringing super heavies bring some of your own, with IA13 we certainly have a few good ones. Not that I've ever used any of them since I don't have the models, but I really like the typhoon siege tank-not too expensive, fairly tough and it's main gun packs a pretty good punch. There's also of course the fellblade and brass scorpion that would probably do the trick. 

[minionboy]

I'd say fight fire with fire, if your opponent is bringing super heavies bring some of your own, with IA13 we certainly have a few good ones. Not that I've ever used any of them since I don't have the models, but I really like the typhoon siege tank-not too expensive, fairly tough and it's main gun packs a pretty good punch. There's also of course the fellblade and brass scorpion that would probably do the trick.

Unfortunately, the Typhon, Brass Scorpion, and Fellblade are all quite bad at killing enemy super heavies for their cost. The Warhound and Lord of Skulls are the only ones packing Destroyer weapons. Bringing a turbo laser warhound will make you about a popular as stepping on a kitten, and unfortunately the Lord of Skulls has some major downsides (illustrated above). In either case, you are turning the game into a coin toss, instead of using sound tactics and a solid army to have the advantage.

[Excessus]

Khârn and Be'lakor are nice at getting those hull points off...

[Ammonius]

Let's see here...

 

"2 Eldar Fire Prisms, 2 Eldar Wraithknights, 2 Leman Russ tanks (one Executioner, one Punisher) and a Baneblade"

 

Do you consider this/ these opponent(s) friends?

 

If not, and you are just looking for an amy that draws only from the codices you list, then consider really sending a message by using about 30 Obliterators in units of 1 as part of an unbound army. Deep Strike half of them into rear or side arcs and try for melta shots. Have the other half focus fire on one vehicle until it's wrecked each turn. Use the leftover points to have a Warlord and some troops for show.

 

If so, see if any of the ideas put forward above work, and try to adopt a thematically fatalistic demeanor. Perhaps something like "All we have to do is deny the enemy this ground until the ritual is complete" or "All we have to do is keep these war machines from the main battle and our cause will succeed!". Just make sure that you are keeping in the spirit of fun and good sportsmanship. :)