DA identity in the new codex

[knife&fork]

I'm not on those guys who think DA should be rolled into C:SM , but I must say that the latest codex is somewhat lacking in defining Dark Angels on the table top.

 

You got a whole new bunch of (mostly) great looking models and a bunch of special rules. Yet it feels very unfocused.... It's like the codex writer didn't know what to do with them. So we have what's supposed to be a mostly codex compliant chapter running the monastery theme with knightly influences, but also the deathwing, the hussar-looking raven wing and all the weird speeders and flyers.

 

When I think Dark Angels I think secrecy, zeal, xeno hate and all the ancient tech that comes with being a first founding chapter. How do you see DA change in the next codex? What do you hope to see?

[angel2burst]

To be frank i want greenwing expand a bit while deathwing and ravenwing need a bit care they are alright, so for my i hope that are greenwing gets some new toys, also i want Azreal, Ezekiel, and Asmodi have the ability to take terminator armor or bike cause entill that point they kinda of suck unless you do greenwing heavy

[Tiberius Cato]

Dark Angels should have access to more of the older warmachines and wargear. Volkites and older marks of terminator armour would be fitting for the first and oldest of all the legions.

[Joasht]

I've asked myself this question for some time. I'm a huge fan of the DA lore and aesthetics, but unfortunately I cannot help but feel the current codex has a rather similar fate with the 3rd and 4th edition codices...both of which weren't entirely great in their own eras.

 

I think the current DA codex was meant to be more "elite" than the average Space Marine army, given the nature of the Ravenwing and Deathwing. Unfortunately the way the game is simply doesn't give much room for such a playstyle.

[Epimetheus13]

Great points.

 

What I would love to see - although I highly doubt it would ever happen - would be a Codex: Unforgiven instead of a Codex: Dark Angels. Each Chapter would have its own unique Chapter Tactics (and, possibly, their own Supplements), and they could self-ally with each other. It would really reinforce the notion that the Unforgiven are essentially a Legion, and operate as such.

 

I feel like the newer units, though effective on the tabletop, weren't necessarily well-integrated into the fluff. I'd like to see more cohesive fluff/background that fills the gap for Ravenwing/Deathwing Knights - something that shows the difference between what a Termie knows, and what a Knight knows. Something that explains why Ravenwing Knights hunt the Fallen but don't fully count as Inner Circle.

 

If we are the First Legion and have old, forgotten technology, I'd like to see a better link to Horus Heresy tech or relic gear. I'm not asking for rules per se, but a better presence in the Codex - so could be fluff, stories, wargear, artwork, model design.

 

I think Ferocious Beast compiled some awesome threads on this Forum with further thoughts on what key Dark Angel themes should be.

[Isiah]

Oh dear here we go - the lid is off the can - worms emerging soon  :)

[knife&fork]

  key Dark Angel themes should be.

 

We can talk about minor wargear tweaks, but this is really the heart of the matter as I see it. Current codex is just all over the place regarding this.  

[Bryan Blaire]

I'd actually be really glad to not have a book that can be boiled down to "one single identity" (as it were) in the next Codex. Yes, I'd like to see everything become a little more explained on how all the different types of units interact with each other (though that may not really be appropriate for a Codex, might be better expanded on in novels).

 

Something I definitely DON'T want to see them become is something that can be boiled down to a catch phrase like "Space Puppies/Werewolves", "Space Vampires", "Smurfs", etc. (all of which are "misunderstandings" of the themes, but still). The Dark Angels players already deal enough with the "hidden traitors" and "dress wearers" crap that we really don't need more "catch-phrase theming" on top of it.

 

I also really don't understand why people think that Codex: Dark Angels is "all over the place"... What about it is all over the place? It's no less disjointed than C:BA, C:SM, or C:SW is.

[Phoebus]

1. I would like to see a Grand Master HQ: a "do-it-yourself" template with options that allow you to create a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain of high rank, or other officers of the Inner Circle - including Chapter Masters and Masters of the 1st and 2nd Companies of other Unforgiven Chapters. I'm just not a fan of every, e.g., Master of the First Company looking like/fighting like Belial.

 

2. I would also like to see the option to add the Inner Circle rule to a model that otherwise "shouldn't" have it - such as a Veteran Sergeant from a Battle Company.

 

3. I appreciate the Darkshrouds, but I'm not really a fan of either the Nephilim or the Dark Talon. They don't really add to the Ravenwing's flavor, and they come at the cost of losing out on technology it would make sense for the Dark Angels to have (e.g., Stormraven).

 

4. The only thing that truly distinguishes a "Greenwing" Battle Company from a Codex one - where rules are concerned - are the Company Master and the Company Veterans. With that in mind, I wish we could get a Codex that focuses on what makes the Dark Angels unique as opposed to vanilla Space Marines: the Inner Circle, the Deathwing (and its equivalents in other Chapters of the Unforgiven), and the Ravenwing (ditto).

 

The flip side of this might sound harsh, but I say let people turn to Codex: Space Marines for Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastator Squads, Scouts, Dedicated Transports, etc. Add a blurb in the appropriate sections of Codex: Dark Angels that states that a Dark Angels army can include, e.g., a Tactical Squad from Codex: Space Marines but that it costs X points more and has the Grim Resolve rule.

 

The game is already at a point where it's plainly intended for players to have greater access than ever before to assets from other Codices. It just doesn't make sense wasting resources on pointless redundancy such as duplicating stat lines.

[knife&fork]

 

I also really don't understand why people think that Codex: Dark Angels is "all over the place"... What about it is all over the place? It's no less disjointed than C:BA, C:SM, or C:SW is.

 

I touched on that in the first post. 

 

DA first gained distinction with deathwing and the whole native american theme way back in RT. This has largely been retconned out but you still have the white armor of the inner circle and feather motifs. Then came the raven wing which is fine but now they've added a hussar flair to it. And then there's the now seemingly random robes and the new knights, the shrine motifs and so on.... it's a mishmash of half developed concepts. 

[Brother dean]

Well, Point of Rumor (if not fact yet) 
Allegedly Dan Abnett is working on "Dreadwing" which I have heard will be the "Special (and maybe even proscribed) Weapons And Tactics" of the 30k Dark Angels.   Would that make a decent supplement and answer your thoughts on individuality?

[Bryan Blaire]

All of which I think are pretty well explained (the robes are the least explained of anything) and aren't mishmashed at all.

 

The RW have had the winged tail things for more than a decade and the winged fairings are hardly "Hussar". It also isn't really new.

 

The shrines, robes, etc, are all the "Legacy of Caliban", as are the Ravenwing and Deathwing. There isn't anything that is "out of place" in the force. It's all a part of the "history" of the Dark Angels Legion and that is what the Dark Angels do, they revere and fight for "history" (hence the Hunt for the Fallen to restore "historical" honor, etc.).

[Firepower]

A muddled, confused and indistinct DA identity?  You don't say...

 

;)

[Phoebus]

A muddled, confused and indistinct DA identity?  You don't say...

 

;)

Shouldn't you be off adoring witches or what have you? ;)

[Brother dean]

A muddled, confused and indistinct DA identity? You don't say...

Shouldn't you be off adoring witches or what have you?

He needs to paint so he can make me defend our honor over some gulf somewhere... I swear, we didnt lose your cruiser!

[Xenith]

^^

A muddled, confused and indistinct DA identity? You don't say...

Shouldn't you be off adoring witches or what have you?

When the CSM forum is too far away, what better place to look for heretics than here?

All jokes aside, the DA have got some weird war machines that other chapters do not. I think the 'Monk-knight' theme is the one that was pushed the most with the last release.

The 'Hussar' theme that k&f mentions is a bit of a red herring. Just because the hussars had the feather back banners doesnt mean that the RW are hussars too. It's just a shared adornment.

I think the current codex had a good go at making the DA unique. The DW and RW are already up there, but the banners almost made GW good, with the 4 shot bolters and such. Maybe they could have been implemented a little better?

[knife&fork]

  It just doesn't make sense wasting resources on pointless redundancy such as duplicating stat lines.

 

Which is why it would be nice to have some more defining aspects for the boys in green. SW grey hunters are 'only' tactical marines with a chainsword and counter attack after all.

 

Army wide hatred non imperial? Volkite weapons or other pre heresey tech in tac squads? Plasma cannon attack bikes?

 

 

Concentrating on the hunt for the fallen feels like a dead end both rules and fluffwise... 

[Phoebus]

I have no problem with the Hussar-style back-banners.

 

Even the earlier, not-knightly hussars were a sort of light cavalry whose role can be married up to the Caliban-era Ravenwing's own mission. Latter hussars, especially the "winged" variety that the Kingdom of Poland fielded, became basically knights in their own way. As such, it makes a nice fit with the current Ravenwing as well.

[Phoebus]

Which is why it would be nice to have some more defining aspects for the boys in green. SW grey hunters are 'only' tactical marines with a chainsword and counter attack after all.

The problem is that there really never was a "defining aspect" for the unitiated, besides the "Stubborn" bit. Personally, I'd rather not have stuff invented out of whole cloth for them. Inevitably, this will result in an attempt to balance things out and the targets of said effort will be the aspects that do define the Unforgiven: the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing.

 

Concentrating on the hunt for the fallen feels like a dead end both rules and fluffwise...

No, not really. The Fallen was a very justifiable way to inject the Hatred portion of the Inner Circle rule. Logic follows that hatred of treachery informs the hatred of the Fallen. It was rather silly that for so many years the Unforgiven of the Inner Circle were obsessed with hunting down an incredibly tiny number of traitors but didn't give a damn (figuratively speaking) about all the other Space Marines who turned their back on the Emperor.

 

Thus, given the fact that Chaos Space Marines are one of the great (if not THE greatest) antagonists of the setting, I have to disagree that the current focus is a dead end for either the fluff or the rules.

[Larhendiel]

Dark angels have no problem with identity as far as I feel about this army.

Its background is deep, sources of fluff are abundant

Upon the battlefield I can field an Deathwing, Ravenwing, Greenwing, Ironwing or mixed themed armies.

For me this is a lot of versality.

Our army looks unique too.

I make almost all of my marines wear robes, they all have dark green armour, the same vehicles, their monastic feel is overflowing.

I feel pity for users of C:SM or C:CM, they are the ones, for me at least, that may find it difficult to give unique feel to their armies

[Epimetheus13]

 

"...the targets of said effort will be the aspects that do define the Unforgiven: the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing."

(Edited: trying to quote properly on iPhone..)

 

Spot on - and there's my problem with a perceived mishmash. I dont see Deathwing Knights as being well-integrated with the established concept of the Deathwing, nor are Ravenwing Knights well-integrated into the concept of Ravenwing. Both seem to be echo monk/knightly order themes, but Black Templars do it more effectively (again, we're talking fluff and feel, not rules).

 

The Knightly units, as well as the LSV, feel tacked on. I look forward to seeing that change as these units and their place in the Inner Circle hierarchy, become fleshed out. I'd like something richer than "they're like regular Deathwing, but even MORE secret and vengeful!"

[knife&fork]

 

Which is why it would be nice to have some more defining aspects for the boys in green. SW grey hunters are 'only' tactical marines with a chainsword and counter attack after all.

The problem is that there really never was a "defining aspect" for the unitiated, besides the "Stubborn" bit. Personally, I'd rather not have stuff invented out of whole cloth for them. Inevitably, this will result in an attempt to balance things out and the targets of said effort will be the aspects that do define the Unforgiven: the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing.

  

 

That was true for every marine chapter in existance, unique traits have since been added every update. Things are constantly invented and made up in each new 'codex. In AoD codex for instance DA had some unique ally rules as they refused to ally with xenos, abhumans and mutants. 

 

Wouldn't it be nice to have a bit of that C:SM flair with some interesting chapter traits outside of DW and RW?

 

Well I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a forum dedicated to DA have members that like the current incarnation ;) 

 

There was a definite push I think to bring the entire DA range into line with the last 'dex. It will be interesting to see how the next update works out. 

[Phoebus]

Do those older features justify essentially copying and pasting pages and pages of stat lines to simply add one or two bullet lines, though? That's my issue, I'd rather see that page count devoted to the themes that make this Chapter unique. When you start inventing concepts that require more than a bullet line or two for the "Greenwing" - that is, units and vehicles unique to them - is when you also start losing focus.

 

From a rules perspective, the 3rd-10th Companies are meant to adhere to Codex lines. It thus becomes very easy to use the current rules to justify using mostly anything in Codex: Space Marines (especially vehicles, but not so much where Characters are concerned) as part of a Dark Angels (or Unforgiven) force. The reverse, however, does not apply.

 

From a fluff perspective, the Inner Circle drives the Unforgiven. The elite of the Unforgiven Chapters are those warriors that carry out the Inner Circle's most crucial objectives. Those elite are the 1st and 2nd Companies, and the rest exist to support them. I'd argue that this is the case even on missions that don't involve the Fallen. It's looking more and more like a "standard deployment" of Dark Angels (whether that's a Battle Company or a smaller task force) nominally includes Deathwing and Ravenwing assets, and it would be those assets that would logically drive the commander's tactics. Beyond that, the Inner Circle really has no incentive re-prioritizing resources to make their second-tier assets "sexier", does it?

[Polythemus]

I agree with with your statement regarding the hunt the fallen theme being a dead end k&f. it seems like it should be something important but not constantly overpowering the rest of the chapters exploits. As it stands now it seems like a constant crutch to justify behavior, when the dark angels should really be about nobility and duty. I agree to an extent with Brian Blair, that having the fluff be too focused down to one single element is a poor way to express the complexity of the dark angels. The secretive nature of the dark angels and their relative lack of powerful rules, makes it difficult for players to support them. They may hunt the fallen but should also have stories about success and failure not related to those values.

 

Their recognizable achievements in the canon are few. Pandorax, kadillus, ? Of course their are those other things mentioned in the codex but those are more story ideas than true engagements. There are no major heresy events the are involved in which means they are peripheral to the most Important organizing event of 40k.

 

A codex unforgiven with chapter tactics for successors also seems like a great idea, and a great way to help support those that have built those armies. It might be reasonable way to get access to more tech and rules if we are rolled into space marine codex.

 

I can't really agree that units have been tacked on. All the new units have a point and purpose it seems to me, but the rules have not been well executed with several items of units and war gear.

[knife&fork]

Do those older features justify essentially copying and pasting pages and pages of stat lines to simply add one or two bullet lines, though? That's my issue, I'd rather see that page count devoted to the themes that make this Chapter unique. When you start inventing concepts that require more than a bullet line or two for the "Greenwing" - that is, units and vehicles unique to them - is when you also start losing focus.

 

From a rules perspective, the 3rd-10th Companies are meant to adhere to Codex lines. It thus becomes very easy to use the current rules to justify using mostly anything in Codex: Space Marines (especially vehicles, but not so much where Characters are concerned) as part of a Dark Angels (or Unforgiven) force. The reverse, however, does not apply.

 

 

Not sure what you are arguing here, do you essentially want everything not RW or DW out of the codex? Adding a chapter trait or two doesn't mean breaking codex guidelines, it merely tells you something about the culture and quirks of that chapter and connects the fluff to the tabletop. 

 

Imho focusing solely on the chapter elite (RW DW) takes away from the chapter as whole, and in practical terms it means little variation in lists. On the extremely rare occasion I see DA it's usually as green painted white scars. One could argue that's because DA got stuck with two types of signature units that GW seems to vastly overestimate and thus not price competitively. Terminators (regardless of kit) are not in a good position this edition and plasma bikers are not as good as grav or even melta.