DA identity in the new codex

[Firepower]

I've never seen much uniqueness in the Angels as an army.  I was hooked on the Angels of Death codex as a wee lad, and while the Blood Angels really popped out as something different, the DA sorta came across as marines with 3 fancy banners.  So many editions later, and the problem lingers still, it seems.

 

I'm not being derogatory here, mind you (this time ;) ).  I'm just saying that this is a very, very old problem for the DA.  They got some new units, but apparently they aren't very popular* or defining of a new niche for the army.

 

*Black Knights excepted, of course.

[shabbadoo]

Part of it also has to do with GW creating new untis which are contrary to the Chapter imagery. What is the chapter symbol? A winged ***SWORD***.

So, what do they arm the two new and unique Dark Angels units with? A beaked warhammer and a giant mace. And "the ultimate weapon of the Chapter", the Sword of Secrets? It is outshined (literally even) by the Mace of Redemption:

Sword of Secrets: Str +2, AP 3, Master-crafted

Mace of Redemption: Str +3, AP 3*, *Bane of the Traitor, Blind, Concussive

Seriously, somebody needs to shove some iconic imagery in somebody's face, repeatedly, until they see the forest for the trees. They at least stayed somewhat on task by sticking to adding specialty terminators and bikers (and by putting robes of some of the new models), but there are things about the new units that do not suit the iconic aspects of the Chapter. And so, rather than further enhance DA in a pure way based on iconic examples that were already blatantly present, they went off on a bit of a tangent and muddled things. Is it all completely horrible? No, of course not, but it could have been better. Other than for minor tweaks to what they did do, one more kit would have really shoved the DA in people's faces: a dual kit Inner Circle Honour Guard/Hunters in the Dark set. They could have sworded the heck out of both of them, one unit being the robed, monkish knight champions who would be THE proper unit to accompany every named DA HQ (who are all footsloggers) into battle, and the other being a robed unit of Fallen hunters decked out with unique gear suited to their task. Such a lost opportunity there. Something like this could still be done with a surprise non-codex release similar to what GW is doing with Tyranids right now, but don't hold your breath.

[Bryan Blaire]

1000% what Shabbadoo said.

 

I'd definitely like to see some expansion on ancient wargear capable of being taken. It would expand on the "Legacy of Caliban" theme that is going on (although expanding anything further for the Consecrators might be difficult that way).

[ElectricPaladin]

Weirdly, with every other themed chapter they SHOVE the theme down your FREAKING throat.

[shabbadoo]

Would have been nice if they did so, but it seems that they can't do Dark Angels a solid in quite the right way.  Until now, DA have only been "off" on points cost/rules.  Now they are "off' on some of the models too.  Whatever has been going on in the studio, it is pervasive, long lasting, and inexplicable.  Remember all of the cool concept art?  Apparently the art was just a little bit too cool to do models/units for it.  Inexplicable indeed.

[Master Avoghai]

 

It just doesn't make sense wasting resources on pointless redundancy such as duplicating stat lines.

 

 

Which is why it would be nice to have some more defining aspects for the boys in green. SW grey hunters are 'only' tactical marines with a chainsword and counter attack after all.

 

Army wide hatred non imperial? Volkite weapons or other pre heresey tech in tac squads? Plasma cannon attack bikes?

 

 

Concentrating on the hunt for the fallen feels like a dead end both rules and fluffwise...

Let me try to understand the whole point of this topic.

 

If I get it well, you're saying that DA aren't worth a separate codex because greenwing aren't "sufficently themed" regarding to their SM equivalent. And the themed should be represented by rules...

 

What I like in the DA codex is the fact that they are not just as themed rules wise. I can play a SM like army with some DW and RW add on without taking tactical squads different from SM codex.

DA are also codex chapter. Part of their secrecy is to behave like the others and not differenciate that much.

 

In clear : personnality are not always represented by the rules, it is also represented by the content of the codex and the spirit of the player.

 

Strangely DA community is one of the strongest of the web, particularly here on the B&C (dedication on the ETL anyone?), and THAT cannot be explained by the fact our army has special rules to differentciate from the others.

 

We don't need rules to differenciate. We ARE already different and that's why we chose to play DA

[Phoebus]

Not sure what you are arguing here, do you essentially want everything not RW or DW out of the codex? Adding a chapter trait or two doesn't mean breaking codex guidelines, it merely tells you something about the culture and quirks of that chapter and connects the fluff to the tabletop.

 

I want to eliminate obsolete redundancy.

 

There are twenty-eight (or so, when you count illustrations) pages of actual Army List information in Chapter Six of the Codex.  Of those, fourteen pages more or less repeat information from Codex: Space Marines.  Each of those pages have just a few bullet lines (often just one, sometimes none) to distinguish them from C:SM.  On top of this, you need to also add the pages from Chapter Three, which accomplish the same redundant objective.

 

This worked (albeit in a hackneyed way designed to generate maximum profit for the publisher) back when you were limited to one army.  Now that you can incorporate detachments from other armies, it's just silly.  In order to use those other detachments, you need to own the Codex.  If you're going to own the other Codex, then what's the point of re-printing the same stat-lines over and over?  So yeah, my proposed course of action for making the Dark Angels identity more firm in the next Codex would be to have Codex: Space Marines, and then smaller Codices focus on what makes other Chapters unique.

 

Imho focusing solely on the chapter elite (RW DW) takes away from the chapter as whole, ...

 

What am I taking away from?  The 3rd-9th Companies are virtually indistinguishable from those of a Codex Chapter (Company Veterans excepted).  Grim Resolve is the only thing that sets them apart, as it replaces the Chapter Tactics a Codex unit gets.  In exchange, you actually lose out on heavy and special weapons that Codex squads have access to.

 

I'm saying Codex: Dark Angels should be an addition to Codex: Space Marines.  You should be able to, e.g., field a Tactical Squad, and that squad should have access to all Codex wargear... but they don't get Chapter Tactics and instead get Grim Resolve (or whatever).  Ultimately, I'm saying that this entry simply needs a reference to Codex: Space Marines and a bullet line that specifies the extra cost (if any) you pay for it being a Dark Angels Tactical Squad.  It doesn't require a page of text that basically repeats what another Codex states.

 

I agree with with your statement regarding the hunt the fallen theme being a dead end k&f. it seems like it should be something important but not constantly overpowering the rest of the chapters exploits. 

 

I can sympathize with this.  There was another topic, some months ago, where the marketing-driven emphasis on the Hunt was discussed.  On the one hand, the background - both in novels and in the Codex - has consistently pointed out that the Dark Angels can go years or even decades without even getting so much as a clue on the Fallen.  On the other, though, one has to excuse Games Workshop for keeping the focus on what makes the Dark Angels unique.  They don't have the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, etc., for kicks.  They have those formations because of the Hunt.  They have them so they can be a product that is distinct from Codex Chapters, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc.

 

Now, could the background (such as the timelines and lists of battles) also include non-Fallen battles, or dial back on the propensity of Dark Angels to abandon allies?  Sure.

 

As it stands now it seems like a constant crutch to justify behavior, when the dark angels should really be about nobility and duty.

 

Respectfully, I disagree with this.  The Dark Angels were all about nobility, and look forward to a time when they can be, again.  The fact of the matter, however, is that the Inner Circle informs the character of the Unforgiven.  Only those committed to the Hunt are inducted into the Inner Circle, and consequently the choices the Chapter makes reflect those priorities.  It's no coincidence that the leaders of the Dark Angels are typically grim, taciturn, and insular:  their heroics against the xenos, the heretics, etc., that plague the Imperium are tainted by the sins they commit in the name of the Hunt.  You can try to justify killing every man, woman, and child on Minoria to prevent another Astelan from doing even worse, for instance, but you can't do so without it taking a toll on who you are.  You can't do that and go back to playing at being a noble knight.

 

When we start getting away from this theme, we're no longer really talking about Dark Angels, are we?

[Firepower]

As it stands now it seems like a constant crutch to justify behavior, when the dark angels should really be about nobility and duty.

melines and lists of battles) also include non-Fallen battles, or dial back on the propensity of Dark Angels to abandon allies? Sure.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. The Dark Angels were all about nobility, and look forward to a time when they can be, again. The fact of the matter, however, is that the Inner Circle informs the character of the Unforgiven. Only those committed to the Hunt are inducted into the Inner Circle, and consequently the choices the Chapter makes reflect those priorities. It's no coincidence that the leaders of the Dark Angels are typically grim, taciturn, and insular: their heroics against the xenos, the heretics, etc., that plague the Imperium are tainted by the sins they commit in the name of the Hunt. You can try to justify killing every man, woman, and child on Minoria to prevent another Astelan from doing even worse, for instance, but you can't do so without it taking a toll on who you are. You can't do that and go back to playing at being a noble knight.

When we start getting away from this theme, we're no longer really talking about Dark Angels, are we?

This. The Angels' roots are in a proper knightly order with nobility and valor and loyal service galore. What they are now is equally, if not more rooted in the Heresy, and how it has twisted the Chapter into something drastically different: untrustworthy, insular, untrustworthy, paranoid, untrustworthy and secretive...and untrustworthy. There's a whole buttload of hypocrisy and loop holes in this, though, but this is about Codex identity, not fluff identity, so I'll leave it at that.

In terms of independence or a niche on the tabletop, I can't really think of one for you lot. Ravenwing is the only non-Codex-ish organization of the Angels, and it got some fancy toys to expand on its repertoire, but it's not especially airtight or singular.

As for the sword iconography versus sword wargear, the bad asses of the Chapter keep breaking all their swords, so they've gotta have better maces and such laying around.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Having regard to Maces v Swords (in particular, DWK) I have no problem with it. For the simple reason that a Mace is very in keeping with the idea of Knights. Lets face it, a Mace has much more potential for damage against an enemy in full armour than a sword. (hence higher strength in the rules) In Mediaeval combat, by the Late Period, Knights had adopted Maces more than Swords in order to get past the tougher armour of their enemies. Our main enemies are the Fallen who wear Power Armour. (sure, not taking into consideration AP values here)

 

As far as identity goes, I think that it revolves around, essentially, the desire for nobility/honour contrasted with The Hunt and everything that surrounds that. I find the Codex does a reasonable job at that.

[Phoebus]

Not to get too off-topic, but the type of weapon shouldn't make a difference when it's a power weapon.  It's one of my personal annoyances with the current rules.

 

On an even personal note, I read "Mace of Redemption" and translate it to sword, axe, hammer, or whatever else strikes me as apropos.

[shabbadoo]

Right. You want to know what is really good at hacking through armor? A force field that is finer than a mono-molecualr blade. Full force applied to one ultra fine line is devastating.

Anyways, I am not opposed to a variety of weapons, just only having one option which is not a sword. A variety of weapons is very knightly, and the "power weapons" selection covers enough variety. Deathwing Knights for instance could have had a variety of weapons to choose from, specifically including swords. Power weapons, with Bane of the Traitor and Smite (which doubles Str and make attacks AP 1, once per game), is all they would have had to add in. Such a simple thing, and people could have chosen exactly how they wished to arm their units. Done. But, they only got one weapon choice, and it wasn't an iconic sword. Annoying. Don't get me wrong, the models are still great- way better than the DA Vets models - but the armament choice is not exactly one we would ever equate to DA. DA- you know, "the mace/hammer Chapter". Yeah, right. Maces and hammers would have been much more suitable to the Templars (and would have served to define them a bit better too), but GW had to go with swords for them and muddle things further. Well, at least the Black Templar and DA bits mingle well enough, don't they. The fact that they do merely serves to confirm the muddleling of things. This particular thing is one of the biggest failings of the designers. Fortunately, there is nothing comparable to it among any other related armies, of which I have, or have had, all but Necrons, so my point of view is not founded on a DA bias. Perhaps they just need to make sure that, next time they design for the DA, they do so before they go to Bugmans for a pint or three, not after.

[Brother dean]

As for the sword iconography versus sword wargear, the bad asses of the Chapter keep breaking all their swords, so they've gotta have better maces and such laying around.

Well we still think all power swords are AP1 and then break them on chaos termies...

[Master Sindiferous]

Lots of good points here and I love to play DA.  I love the fluff, but hate the rules in the codex that doNOT back up the fluff.  If Ravenwing re great riders make them great riders if DW are going to cost more tun other terminators make them hit with more punch or minimize my dispersion to 1D6.  I got it Belial lands where he wants, but these are all veterans of countless battles so make it so.

 

When it comes to swords I flat-out don't get how Sword of Silence can be left at home in lieu of a Thunder Hammer.  That could be said of all the great DA swords.  All I am saying is if they are cool in the fluff make it so in the rules.  I have gone to using a DA Knight with cool Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer as Belial with regular terminators to be different.

 

I guess what I would like to see is for GW to make DA, the first legion, equal to it's fluff.  Give me my due with Raven Wing unequaled not outdone by White Scars.  Deathwing unequaled in some way or priced to match other terminators.  At the same time I would like to see other SM Chapters get their due so that there is a reason to take a specific group that stands out during play.  I don't want equality and vanilla Space Marines other wise why paint them get a spray can and there you have it everyone can be red, black, blue, or Green like risk.

 

Lastly no offense meant by this post, because in the end I think Dark Angels Rock and I am in the process of painting up some pre-heresy Black DA to play with and may even include that ever hated model, Cypher as a Company Master (Now he has a Sword).

[ElectricPaladin]

Lots of good points here and I love to play DA.  I love the fluff, but hate the rules in the codex that doNOT back up the fluff.  If Ravenwing re great riders make them great riders if DW are going to cost more tun other terminators make them hit with more punch or minimize my dispersion to 1D6.  I got it Belial lands where he wants, but these are all veterans of countless battles so make it so.

 

When it comes to swords I flat-out don't get how Sword of Silence can be left at home in lieu of a Thunder Hammer.  That could be said of all the great DA swords.  All I am saying is if they are cool in the fluff make it so in the rules.  I have gone to using a DA Knight with cool Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer as Belial with regular terminators to be different.

 

I guess what I would like to see is for GW to make DA, the first legion, equal to it's fluff.  Give me my due with Raven Wing unequaled not outdone by White Scars.  Deathwing unequaled in some way or priced to match other terminators.  At the same time I would like to see other SM Chapters get their due so that there is a reason to take a specific group that stands out during play.  I don't want equality and vanilla Space Marines other wise why paint them get a spray can and there you have it everyone can be red, black, blue, or Green like risk.

 

Lastly no offense meant by this post, because in the end I think Dark Angels Rock and I am in the process of painting up some pre-heresy Black DA to play with and may even include that ever hated model, Cypher as a Company Master (Now he has a Sword).

 

 

This post may actually identify what has always confused me about the Dark Angels. As far as I can tell, their fluff is that they are the "best." They have the best terminators. They have the best bikers. And yet, they're supposed to have all this, but without their ordinary marines - the "greenwing" - being any less competent than anyone else's ordinary marines. And if you read other posts on this thread, you learn that the Dark Angels are also supposed to have the best gear - including special toys from the Age of Darkness.

 

With all due respect to the Dark Angels, and the fact that every faction deserves to be the best at something... where does that leave GW room to write this codex? How the heck do you expect to balance "best tech, best terminators, best bikers" with everyone else?

[shabbadoo]

I think DA just need to have units with point costs that are balanced compared to others is all. There is a reason many people run Ravenwing using White Scars rules, and it isn't just because they can then use their old "Sammael on bike" models for Kor' Sarro Khan stand-ins either (even though they can). Here is the reason:

2,000 Point Army Lists

Dark Angels (1,999 points) White Scars (1,998 points)

HQ HQ

Sammael: Corvus Kor'Sarro Khan

(5) RW Command Squad: RWgl, SoF (5) Command Squad: bikes, champ, pf, 2 mb

TROOPS TROOPS

(6)RW Attack Squadron: vet. sgt.: pf; 2 melta; (1) att. bike: mm. (8) Bike Squad: vet. sgt.: pf; 2 melta; (1) att. bike: mm.

(6)RW Attack Squadron: vet. sgt.: pf; 2 melta; (1) att. bike: mm. (8) Bike Squad: vet. sgt.: pf; 2 melta; (1) att. bike: mm.

(6)RW Attack Squadron: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 melta; (1) att. bike: mm. (8) Bike Squad: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 grav; (1) att. bike: mm.

(6)RW Attack Squadron: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 flamers; (1) att. bike: mm. (8) Bike Squad: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 grav; (1) att. bike: mm.

(6)RW Attack Squadron: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 flamers; (1) att. bike: mm. (8) Bike Squad: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 flamer; (1) att. bike: hb.

(6)RW Attack Squadron: sgt.: mb; 2 flamers (8) Bike Squad: vet. sgt.: pw, mb; 2 flamer; (1) att. bike: hb.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Special Rules Special Rules

ATSKNF (ALL models except Sammael) ATSKNF (ALL models)

Independent Character (Sammael only) Independent Character (Kor'Sarro Khan only)

Scout (ALL models) Scout (ALL models, from KK's "Master of the Hunt" special rule)

Skilled Rider (Sammael and the 5 RW Command Squad only) Skilled Rider (ALL models)

Hit & Run (ALL models) Hit & Run (ALL models)

Grim Resolve (All models except Sammael) +1 Str bonus on Hammer of Wrath hits (ALL models)

Furious Charge (Kor' Sarro Khan only)

Champion of Humanity (Kor' Sarro Khan only)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total Models: 47 Total Models: 60

Why the 13 model discrepancy? Well, the main reason is that, unlike the Dark Angels, the White Scars literally do not pay anything for their very pro-active special rules (i.e. the enemy doesn't have to be murdering you for them to come into effect, as is the case with Grim Resolve). They are all bonuses from either Kor'Sarro Khan being present (the Scout ability from his "Master of the Hunt" special rule, or from Chapter Tactics (every other special rule they have). Kor'Sarro Khan really does pay for everything he personally has, and that would be fine if it was fully confined to him, but it is not. Here is the main rub:

Basic Ravenwing Bikes /Attack Bikes Special Rules Basic White Scars Bikes/Attack Bikes Special Rules

ATSKNF ATSKNF

Scout (a portion of 6 points is paid for this) Scout (FREE due to Master of the Hunt)

Hit & Run (a portion of 6 points is paid for this) Hit & Run (FREE due to Chapter Tactics)

Grim Resolve (Chapter Tactics) Skilled Rider (FREE due to Chapter Tactics)

+1 Str bonus on Hammer of Wrath hits (FREE due to Chapter Tactics)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model Cost: 27/45 Model Cost: 21/45

The vaunted Ravenwing pay a sizeable tax for their abilities, while the White Scars pay nothing and actually get more (and more useful) special rules, as even Grim Resolve is further marginalized due to bikes being immune to Pinning. Collectively, this is just beyond poor game design, but I really don't mean in just regards to game balance (though that is surely very important too). The poor design further verges into the rules themselves. Do you see a really defining difference between Ravenwing and White Scars? Not really. So, Dark Angels have these awesome bikers, right? Well, so do White Scars, but they are practically clones (except for the points costs). This isn't just bad for the Dark Agnels, but for the White Scars as well. So, what is the White Scars identity? "We're just like Ravenwing, only cheaper!" ??? "But there are only so many abilities one can give models on bikes, Shabs.", I hear you say. Are we really pigeon-holed rules-wise in regard to these two forces then? No, not really.

The main issue we have here is that both Ravenwing and White Scars bikes have been designed to be "shooty" units. Now, the specialty units of each, those being the elite units/command squads, can of course be kitted out for either shooting or close combat (or already are to some extent), and they both have the buffed Att 2 stat to really make good use of any upgraded close combat weapons they might be given (or already have). As to weapon options in the basic bike squads though, they messed that up by leaving out the things that would serve to differentiate Ravenwing from White Scars, and rules to further that differentiation. The right equipment can define a rule very differently for two units that are otherwise very similar. A good example would be Hit & Run rule.

Let's say that, of these two Chapters, basic Ravenwing bikers will be the unit that fully favors the basic twin bolters of their bikes, plus shooty weapon upgrades. They will be using Hit & Run to keep their distance from the enemy and shoot them up. To reinforce this further, we give them Shot on the Run (can fire snap shots even when having turbo boosted; this should be given to ALL Ravenwing untis, as should Skilled Rider/Pilot). This unit will circle you and pick you off with twin bolters and nastier weapons, at speed even, and if you do manage to get to grips with them they will melt away and do it all over again. That's worth 25 points for basic bikes (another +5 for Att. Bikes, which pay NOTHING at the moment).

To differentiate basic White Scars bikes from both Ravenwing and vanilla bikes, we allow them to choose from both shooty and close combat weapon upgrades for their bike untis (able to add chainswords for all; upgrade 2 with power weapons/special weapons). To reinforce their often described savage mien, we give them the Furious Charge rule (yes, go figure, we borrow from Kor'Sarro Khan's example ). While this unit is still capable of being kitted out to circle the enemy and pick them off with twin bolters and nastier "shooty" weapons (if they are given them), they are much better suited to moving in, shooting the enemy up, assaulting them brutally, and then withdrawing to do it all over again. Yes, you White Scars players would totally want to model some bike untis with power lances (talk about an iconic thing to favor), wouldn't you? I would! You are going to have to pay a bit more for it though. That's worth 25 points for basic bikes with chainswords (another +5 for Att. Bikes).

And Ravenwing and White Scars bikers could still both have the Skilled Rider and Scout special rules. What we end up with are, due to extremely minor changes, untis that have an actual identity, both visually (due not only to general appearance but to weapon options) and tactically. This is is exactly what you want for forces with similar units which are both iconic to them, and yet are not iconic to any other force of a similar type. Space marines have basic bikers, but Dark Angels have biker X's and Whtie Scars have biker Y's, and you will be able to fully tell what you are dealing with not only by looking at them, but by what they will be doing, and how wll they will be doing it, in-game. Instead we have Bikers X's, and cheaper Biker X's, a double failing in establishing Chapter/unit indentity.

[Phoebus]

Can this forum be modified so I can like shabb's post multiple times?

[ElectricPaladin]

The trouble is that points costs are not the be-all end-all of game balancing. I have played games that were unbalanced by the existence of a thing that was perfectly balanced points-wise. 

 

Additionally, I wonder if you are Chaos in this conversation. By that I mean that I have had conversations with Chaos Marines players that have led me to the conclusion that the biggest problem, historically, is that Chaos players want rules for the Traitor Legions to take center stage, and GW doesn't see that as being consistent with the game world they want to create (ie. that the legions have been almost completely scattered and now exist as specialized squads within renegade warbands). So, Chaos players and GW are in a total stalemate until one side gives in, because their visions of what Chaos means are different.

 

So, look... I'm sympathetic, but I think it might be true that White Scars are supposed to be better bikers than the Dark Angels ravenwing. I get how that's frustrating for you, but what are you gonna do? That's the army GW wants to give you. Maybe bikes aren't supposed to take center stage with the Dark Angels the way that they are for the White Scars. Maybe they're supposed to take a support role.

 

Look at it this way: let's say I get it into my head that I want to play my Blood Angels with a huge block of tactical terminators. There's support for this in the fluff - Space Hulk and all that - but the rules on the table don't support it. I can talk all day about the glory of the 1st Company and how awesome the terminators in Space Hulk were... but when push comes to shove, that's now how GW sees the Blood Angels. I can still use tactical terminators, but if I insist that I should be able to play and win with two ten man squads of tactical terminators footslogging across the board... well, good luck.

 

The one thing you can't fight is the creator's vision of your army. I'm sympathetic - there are things about the Blood Angels that I like which GW sees as a support role rather than a center stage role - and there's nothing anyone can or will do about it.

[Firepower]

Lots of good points here and I love to play DA. I love the fluff, but hate the rules in the codex that doNOT back up the fluff. If Ravenwing re great riders make them great riders if DW are going to cost more tun other terminators make them hit with more punch or minimize my dispersion to 1D6. I got it Belial lands where he wants, but these are all veterans of countless battles so make it so.

When it comes to swords I flat-out don't get how Sword of Silence can be left at home in lieu of a Thunder Hammer. That could be said of all the great DA swords. All I am saying is if they are cool in the fluff make it so in the rules. I have gone to using a DA Knight with cool Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer as Belial with regular terminators to be different.

So what you're saying is, GW should cut back on the cool parts of your fluff to match the mediocre rules? Good idea!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Ravenwing also all have teleport homers...on every Bike. We also pay for that, not just our special rules. We also get access to Darkshrouds which makes our cover saves v WS better and, although it failed, there was an attempt to bring a heavier weapon platform in the form of a Vengeance. Then there are Black Knights added on top with twin-linked plasma guns, epic grenade launchers and a reasonable CC weapon. 

 

Ravenwing, as an army, is less competitive than a Khan WS army - or, perhaps, a full WS army without Khan. However, it is far more competitive if you include Deathwing. Suddenly every Biker can call down any Terminator squad within 6 inches with no fear of scatter. That is why we pay more; not rules, but the fact that our Bikers are teleport homers.

 

Sure, for those who wish to play pure RW, it sucks that a WS army is better, but our Bikes are better once you add a unit of DW

 

EDIT: just checked the price cost of Homers in Codex: Space Marines, if you price the difference between our bikes and a WS biker, assuming the entire points difference is for the Homer, then it works out as 4 pts cheaper than anyone can take a Homer. Per Bike.

[knife&fork]

 

 

Ravenwing, as an army, is less competitive than a Khan WS army - or, perhaps, a full WS army without Khan. However, it is far more competitive if you include Deathwing.  

 

I have to disagree strongly with this statement. Taking DW units makes a DA force weaker as terminators are incorrectly priced everywhere except maybe codex grey knights. AP2 has been given out like candy for at least 2 editions now.

 

That RW bikers comes with teleport homers doesn't justify  the extra points since they are only a benefit if you take, to put it kindly, a sub-optimal unit like terminators. I love my termies, have about 40 of them, but they are not in a good place right now rules wise. 

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

With respect, I disagree. I run variants on a theme of Deathwing and generally win most of the games I play - including against Eldar and other pesky Xenos. Eldar is the primary army I fight - in fact, the army I face is often tailored to kill Marines - and I still pull off a majority of victories against it. I wouldn't call them sub-optimal. DeathRaven is one of the best combinations I have run.

 

I do recognise my experience may be different to most - if not all - of you.

[shabbadoo]

Ravenwing also all have teleport homers...on every Bike. We also pay for that, not just our special rules. We also get access to Darkshrouds which makes our cover saves v WS better and, although it failed, there was an attempt to bring a heavier weapon platform in the form of a Vengeance. Then there are Black Knights added on top with twin-linked plasma guns, epic grenade launchers and a reasonable CC weapon.

I did neglect to include the teleport homer.  RW do have to pay a portion of this cost for every single bike/attack bike in their frorce, whereas most times this option is present for a unit, it is as just that- an option.  Does anybody truly think that a strongly themed RW force wiill be making use of teleport homers everywhere?  I've never seen it happen, nor heard of it happening, namely because such a force simply won't have all that many Deepstriking units in Reserve unless the force is purposely built to do just that.  I guess you can add in a few Deathwing units who can drop in on Turn 1, and hold every non-RW attack squadron land speeder in Reserve so they can deepstrike in on Turn 2 and later, just to mek the most used o the teleprot homers.  However, most land speeders will be set up for 24"-48" range strike capability, so leaving them off the table for at least one turn is not exactly the most sound of tactical decisions.  That might be the best way to use what the RW have no choice but to pay for though.

 

In any event, I intended to focus more on the lack of characterful differences between these untis.  The cost thing easily crept in though, and I will surely say that any teleport homers in the RW force I posted do not effectively make up for the 280+ point discrepancy between the listed forces, whether the teleport homers are a factor in the comparison or not.

[ElectricPaladin]

I did neglect to include the teleport homer.  RW do have to pay a portion of this cost for every single bike/attack bike in their frorce, whereas most times this option is present for a unit, it is as just that- an option.  Does anybody truly think that a strongly themed RW force wiill be making use of teleport homers everywhere?...

 

Like I said... maybe "strongly themed" isn't something that the Ravenwing is supposed to do well. For narrative purposes, if it fits into some kind of ongoing story about a 2nd Company force stranded and without support from the 1st Company terminators... but maybe they're supposed to lose a lot. Maybe it's not how your army is supposed to play, and you are beating your head against a wall.

[shabbadoo]

Strongly themed or not, unit points still need to compare somewhat closely to maintain game balance.  There shouldn't be any case of  "If you take more than a few of these units in your force, you will find that you will be wasting a notable amount of points on things that are, overall, ineffective because they are not a pervasive factor in the game."  It is not exactly a sign of good design when a built-in feature will, overall, has little effect, and then jack up the unit's point cost because of it.  That is a failing in the design of a unit, not in its implementation.  As you say though, simply due to how the unit was poorly designed, "strongly themed" is not as viable for Ravenwing as it should be.

 

Another failing in giving character to the Ravenwing is with their basic Land Speeders. They are just vanilla speeders painted black.  They could have had some minor rule perhaps?  Skilled Pilot (+1 Jink, as per Skille Rider, but for vehicles with the Jink rule) would be my choice, for +5 points.  While useful, it would not be overly effective, as to use it the land speeders must tak a -50% accuracy penalty when shooting.  But, there would be more character.

 

The character of the Chapter is there, and visually it is obvious enough (not many armies have unigs painted in three different base color schemes), but it could have been more obvious still.  It just doesn't show up well in-game.  It comes somewhat close, but falls short of the mark just enough that people will still be wondering why DA are not just folded into C: SM.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

REgarding OP's question I am quite confortable with DA direction so far, especially looking at the neighbours. AS long as they stay clear of Lion cavalry and super secretspecial-falen hunting ops task forces, I think we'll be mostly good.

Fallen theme wil always bea mainstay of DA and if you don't give it enough highlight then we're just CSM with special bikes and terminators, so the Fallen theme always has to have extra enfasis even if dealing with Fallen is not what DA do with all the time, but it is something they do that other marines don't!

Ruleswise I'm quite happy with the Codex I just wish that the green marines had something cool/gimmick that made them interactive more with RW/DW. RW and DW complement each other but IMHO the Green ones needsomething that makes them complement the other two so it looks like we have only one chapter. Right now It feels the Green ones are in the shadow. Maybe a Special character that is not tied to RW/DW would do the trick.