DA identity in the new codex

[Darkangeldentist]

I think the current codex is good, there is a strong monastic, knightly theme which is borne out reasonably well through the units and options. The nods to secretive arcane technology are there but the options here are sometimes poor. Complaints about the power level of the more poorly executed ideas are fair but should be a separate discussion to the identity of the Dark angels.

 

Greenwing do feel a bit unloved, there isn't really any other way to describe it. Veterans and command squads add a little flavour, particularly with the sacred standards but it would be nice to have something more. Deathwing and Ravenwing I am very happy with though, the flyers may be weak and the land speeder vengeance something of a joke but overall there is more than enough good to field very strongly themed armies and have fun alongside a good chance of winning too.

 

Shabbadoo, I feel your analysis is flawed. The on paper comparison certainly does favour the white scars but you neglected to acknowledge in your break down the full difference of the command squad and the impact the standard of fortitude, or how both unit composition and army build would normally differentiate them on the table. The standard alone skews the comparison as feel no pain on a huge chunk of the army whilst it's on the table can equate to almost a third increase in the size of the force in regards to attrition. Your lists are also designed to over-state the cost difference without acknowledging the options available to each list. The core of any Ravenwing or White scar army will be the bikes but there really isn't anything keeping either force to field only bikers. I think your example lists work too hard to match list design and as a result the Ravenwing list is not like those I've fielded or seen. Few if any squads of Ravenwing are likely to have veteran sergeants let alone with power-fists/weapons and that's a 150pts of the list. You could get a min unit of black knights and melta bombs for 5 of the sergeants with that (almost). Ravenwing in my experience do not operate in the same way as white scars, partly due to the difference in unit size, only being able to get 6 models, independent attack bikes it all affects how you use these models on the table. White scars like to sweep forwards and charge in, they do it quite well and want large bike squads to help them win fights convincingly. Ravenwing do not play this way effectively. I've always enjoyed most success with Ravenwing by playing the ranged harassment game using positioning to force opponents to chase me whilst I pick off specific targets sacrificing small units (often attack bikes) along the way to achieve this.

 

I still personally consider Ravenwing far superior to White scars because of things like the command squads and black knight units. Those two units alone change the dynamic of the Ravenwing in a way that is very hard to price, as is the independent nature of our attack bikes. The standards and in particular the standard of devastation turns on the Ravenwing as a shooting force like no other and makes the bikers a completely different threat. Not quite on the same level but the grenade launcher with it's rad and stasis rounds also add a disproportionately significant difference to how the force plays on the table. The is no equivalent unit to black knights in regular marine chapters and that alone makes the Ravenwing a different force.

 

Now I can accept that none of this really answers your main question and issue over the difference between a basic Ravenwing bike squad and a White scar (khan list) bike unit or lack there of to the benefit of Dark angels but at that level should there be? Ravenwing have a very different unit composition and whilst it doesn't often feel like this works greatly in our favour it does make the units operate differently on the table. Independent scouting attack bikes are incredibly powerful alpha strike pieces to take down vehicles early and the opportunity to field large numbers of independent units can make it very hard indeed for a lot of armies to effectively direct fire. 

 

To those who remark about use of Deathwing making a Ravenwing army weaker I'm gobsmacked by the very assertion! The ability to drop a large unit of terminators (and Deathwing knights are currently my favourite option currently) turn 1 to support my bikes as they sally forth to engage the foe has been amazingly powerful. They provide a tougher, more powerful anchoring threat that distracts opponents from my less durable bikes who can pin down weaker elements of the opposing force, snipe lone models and vehicles with melta weaponry or just zip around to score objective points. I've not been playing a lot of games this edition but few opponents have found my Dark angels any easier to deal with than before their latest books.

[Isiah]

Great post DAD. The point being one could always pick holes in our 'dex by unfair/unrealistic list-build comparisons that don't truly reflect how a particular list is played.

...and of course everyone's mileage with any particular DA list will vary. Too many variables.

I love the 'spirit' of our 'dex but yes it's flawed in places. Because for me that spirit isn't totally carried through into tabletop reality - a hard trick to pull off when the timbre is soooo set to beating the Emperor's Blessing into anything 'Chaos' which is great - but against anything else that uniqueness falls off. And far too much weight on the DW / RW combo that carries that spirit to an unnecessary extreme imho at the expense of other builds.

DA Greenwing needs a hand up for sure - but I'm still glad we aren't just blindly following cut'n'paste entries from Codex SM. Our Greenwing needs to remain our Greenwing - somehow.

Points discussions are interesting and I would largely agree on DA being currently over-costed due to the Jervis format built-in wargear rather than allowing that wargear as costed options to purchase as and when required. The RW teleport homers on bikes in an army with no Deathwing is a prime example of how built-in wargear works against us. This isn't the fault of our Codex per se (because the 'spirit' is right), but is a sympton of poor codex-writing forethought. Assuming RW and DW would always work together as butter on toast is an ok assumption based on fluff, but for list-building flexibility it's an assumption too far. Sometimes dry toast is just as nice .

Anyway you can bet your bottom dollar that any future points adjustments back to some kind of parity will once more be erroded by the next Codex Space Marines - as is usually the case .

Cheers

I

[Phoebus]

DA Greenwing needs a hand up for sure - but I'm still glad we aren't just blindly following cut'n'paste entries from Codex SM. Our Greenwing needs to remain our Greenwing - somehow.

 

But we are.  The Tactical Squad page from the Army List is almost literally a cut and paste.  The only two differences are the addition of Grim Resolve and the lack of access to the grav-gun and the heavy flamer.  Our Devastators are similarly limited.  With the Assault Squad, our Sergeant has greater access to ranged weapons, but loses access to a Combat Shield.  Other than that and Grim Resolve vs. Chapter Tactics, there is no meaningful difference.  Our non-Deathwing Dreadnoughts are indistinguishable from Codex ones.  Our Scouts are more expensive, but get free sniper rifles; on the minus side, they don't get hellfire rounds.

 

Again, these are almost literally cut and paste jobs, and those minute differences that do exist?  There isn't so much as an attempt to explain why they are there.  Objectively, we know it's a matter of game balance.  "In-universe", though?  There's no rhyme or reason to it.  Virtually the only exception I can think for this is our Scout Sergeants not having access to Teleport homers.

 

Let's face it, what makes the Greenwing "ours" in any meaningful way comes down to three things:

 

1. The Company Veterans.

2. Our Standards.

3. Exchanging Chapter Tactics for Grim Resolve.

[Isiah]

Well as they are not exactly the same then they can't be cut'n'paste. Which is fine. But still needs to somehow reflect the DA spirit.

 

Some might argue that your 3 items are that differentiator and they need no more.

 

For me it isn't enough though.

[Firepower]

I may be wrong here, but from memory, Dark Angels are codex adherent, with exception to the 2nd and 1st Companies (Inner Circle included).  So, why would their Tactical Squads be any different from Ultramarines or Imperial Fists?  It literally is the same unit.  Having your own Marine dex doesn't mean every unit in it should be different from every other Marine dex.  A Rhino is still a Rhino and a Tactical Squad is still a Tactical Squad.

 

Being stubborn and having banners has been a defining feature since day 1 for the Dark Angels.  The greenies in the Chapter aren't anything special, and never really have been.  It's always been about the Ravenwing and Deathwing.  

[Isiah]

That's not strictly true: Naaman and Bethor were Greenwing characters - it has never always been just about DW and RW.

 

The issue is more that Greenwing is not now seen as a viable / exciting alternative. Even Company Vets (a nice try GW) couldn't swing it.

 

Should they be? One could argue no. But then we simply remain locked in the DW / RW furrow.

 

To get out of that furrow I'm going to throw in the idea that full DW and RW armies should be made an illegal build: no more DW or RW as Troops in the Primary detachment. Fielded as Troops in allied detachments only - which probably reflects our background better anyway.

 

Ok I've lit the fuse, now I'm running <_<.

[ZONKEY]

Was I wrong to collect dark angels as I like the look and the colour scheme and the pre fall of Caliban fluff and the concept of the rock but I find the hunt for the fallen dull, I Like the unique bike units and the terminators but I dislike thst these units are just for hunting fallen

[shabbadoo]

The DW and RW are not just for hunting the Fallen. They just have that task in addtion to any other tasks units of these types would have for any Chapter. The DW isn't reknowned throughout the Imperium and other Astartes Chapters because everyone knows they hunt the Fallen (because nobody outside the Chapter knows that), but because they are known to take names and kick arse all of the time. So, if you like that aspect of the units, that is why you should be interested in them. The whole "Hunt he Fallen" bit is just an extra thing which serves to make them all the more interesting.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Ninja'd by Shabbadoo - but agree with everything he said ;)

 

The issue with the Greenwing in terms of lets make 'em unique, is that their very fluff reflects them being Codex Compliant from the 3rd through 10th Companies. Making them overly different would be wrong. The only change I would suspect, and like, to see is the addition of older, more unique special weapons (essentially, adding Grav options as it makes no sense we do not have them and adding Volkite weaponry). Grim Resolve could be beefed, but, as a chapter trait, it works reasonably well as a fluffy rule.

 

As far as new units to support the Greenwing, I do feel we lost out on the chance to have a proper Mortis Dreadnought, with rules, and adding Brother Bethor/Sergeant Naaman to the codex as unique characters. And, perhaps, Predator Executioners would have been a nice addition. However, a number of those can be added using Forgeworld - and Volkites are a FW thing - which may have been a factor in not introducing them into the mix. Additionally, one thing that has always saddened me is the lack of an AP2 Heavenfall blade as an option for Company-Masters only (and, in addition, beefing up the swords on Sammael, Belial and Azrael)

 

But now I feel we are moving into the realm of wishlisting. If the Greenwing had been done to mark them as more different to their Codex compliant brethren, then older tech and, perhaps, Heavenfall blades on C-M's would have been the way to go (along with Mortis Dreads!)

[ElectricPaladin]

Weirdly, as an outsider, I'm a lot more sympathetic to the idea that greenwing should be at least a little bit distinct than I am to the idea that ravenwing has to be the OMGbestbikersevar. My Blood Angels have some special upgrade options available across the board, even for our tactical squads and ordinary assault squads. The same is true for the Space Wolf equivalents. I'd say let the Dark Angels have the man-portable versions of volkite and grav weapons (ie. pistol, assault rifle, and heavy weapon versions) in their greenwing squads. Why not? If the upgrades cost appropriately, neither of those weapon types are game breaking.

[Firepower]

That's not strictly true: Naaman and Bethor were Greenwing characters - it has never always been just about DW and RW.

The issue is more that Greenwing is not now seen as a viable / exciting alternative. Even Company Vets (a nice try GW) couldn't swing it.

Should they be? One could argue no. But then we simply remain locked in the DW / RW furrow.

To get out of that furrow I'm going to throw in the idea that full DW and RW armies should be made an illegal build: no more DW or RW as Troops in the Primary detachment. Fielded as Troops in allied detachments only - which probably reflects our background better anyway.

Ok I've lit the fuse, now I'm running .

But that would just force people to use units which you just said aren't viable. I dunno about 'viable,' because I loathe the abuse of that word, but I can understand them not being exciting.

That idea wouldn't do anything to make the greenies feel special, it would just make things frustrating for people that want the actual 'special' units.

The only reason your Tactical Squads don't have grav weapons is because the dex was written before C:SM introduced them But in terms of allowing them to have unique older tech like volkites, it's not as though the DA are the only first founding Chapter still around.

Gray Hunters have been different from the beginning, though originally it was in such a way that it made sense (True Grit rather than Ultra Grit, mainly). But GW goes out of its way to make sure they are the super special snow flakes, so trying to emulate them in having every unit in your dex be something unique is...meh.

But a special character upgrade to tack onto Tacticals? Sure, that makes sense. The Dark Angel Tactical Squads are no different from any other Chapter's outside of the Chapter Trait-ish USRs, but characters are unique, with unique effects.

Anyway, this is all 'coulda woulda shoulda' in the end. A feeling I can deeply empathize with mind you

[knife&fork]

The only reason your Tactical Squads don't have grav weapons is because the dex was written before C:SM introduced them But in terms of allowing them to have unique older tech like volkites, it's not as though the DA are the only first founding Chapter still around.

Different chapters still have different traditions, areas of operation and relations to forge worlds, this has nothing to do with being codex compliant or not.

Some kind of plasma affinity chapter trait could have been fluffy and useful. Like having every model armed with a plasma weapon gain preferred enemy when shooting it.

That way taking plasma wouldn't be such a loss compared to melta or the vastly superior grav.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I still like the effect that was in the dreaded/hated mini dexes of many moons ago where the Greenwing entries just referenced you to C:SM, to me that is exactly appropriate. I like the new complete dex format but the entries should be identical if we follow the most pervasive fluff over the years.

I agree with FP that our differences are probably due to printing dates and nothing else, although it would be nice to have some differences that are not merely omissions, a great way to do that in line with the above is to add Characters etc...

 

Unlike the BA and SWs it is NOT our troops that define us, it is our First and Second Companies and our Inner Circle Characters for better and worse.

 

As to how I see things for us:

 

FW supplies us with the best Mortis in the shed so no loss there, it would be nice to see it included in the core dex so people that live with FW haters can use them.

 

The Heavenfall blades and new Landspeeder variants are the trainwrecks of our codex design and need fixing asap, along with our flyers missiles and costs etc...

 

Our 'normal' RW and DW options are pretty damned good but are a smidgen overcosted in both spaces but are not 'weak' by any means.

Our RWBKs and RWCSs are the glue that keeps the RW 'viable' not the basic units which could do with a couple of points off each dude.

DWTs are just plain overcosted in 7th just like C:SM termies, AP2 templates are too prevalent to make them truly worth it. You spend points on keeping them alive and some cheap enemy spam takes it all away easy as pie. They should drop to 200 points base, especially with the loss of Powerfist on the Sgt.

DWKs cost too much as well but used awesomely they can earn their points back, maybe they should have more than a one hit wonder weapon or AP3 Sword options standard; that leads me onto my final point...

 

...I agree wholeheartedly with Shabbzz that the DW Knights needed SWORD options instead of maces, I'm going to purchase some GKT ones and replace the maces on mine as soon as money and time allow; counts as will suffice in my gaming group ;) SWORDS ARE COOL.

 

:D

stobz

[Firepower]

 

I agree with FP

 

Clearly, this is a guy that knows what he's talking about. :D

 

 

Different chapters still have different traditions, areas of operation and relations to forge worlds, this has nothing to do with being codex compliant or not. 

 

Some kind of plasma affinity chapter trait could have been fluffy and useful. Like having every model armed with a plasma weapon gain preferred enemy when shooting it. 

That way taking plasma wouldn't be such a loss compared to melta or the vastly superior grav.

 

 

I was not saying access to old weapons has to do with being Codex compliant, I was saying that there are plenty of other Chapters which were around when all those toys were still in use, and would be just as likely to have a few in a vault somewhere.  Why would Dark Angels have a pack of volkites tucked away in the Rock's attic while Ultramarines, Fists, Scars, Ravens, Iron Hands and Salamanders don't have any laying around? What special relations are known of the Dark Angels and Forge Worlds?

 

I've never known any actual relation between Dark Angels and plasma weapons, beyond a frequent theme of their artwork, and now the option for a Cannon on a Terminator.  I'm not saying there's no fluff reason, I'm just saying I've never heard one.

[Master Avoghai]

I've never known any actual relation between Dark Angels and plasma weapons, beyond a frequent theme of their artwork, and now the option for a Cannon on a Terminator. I'm not saying there's no fluff reason, I'm just saying I've never heard one.

Actually there's none. It was just something stupid introduced during v3.

 

The DA codex was (already) made by Jervis and was (already) hardly playable. (This guy managed to fail 2 codex of the same army in a row... wow :o ).

 

At this time, Plasma cannon weren't allowed in tactical, hence, to introduce this "characterful originality" of the tactical squad decided to allow PC in tactical squad.

They justified it by the fact that, as the first founded and the preatorian guard of the Emperor, the DA have inherited lots of "ancient weaponry"... Which was the worst justification of all if you want my opinion because plasma cannon was the most recent weapon of all and was first developped to be tested on a dreadnought... As a consequence it was developped for infantry very late during the great crusade, long after the Lion was recovered and the DA becoming a simple legion among the others. So it was a fluff non sens and the start of bunch of army lists post justifying the presence of plasma by fluffy reasons...

 

But anyway, they kept it and released a special DA tactical boxset with a DA designed PC and a vet sgt with PP...

Then, v4 SM codex was released and allowed the PC in tactical squad for everybody. But the DA= plasma remained strong in the mind of lots of players.

 

So strong that when GW decided to released the DV box set and the DA codex you could see :

 

- A company master with a bolter plasma

- A bike squad with a plasma gun

- A tactical squad with plasma gun, plasma cannon and plasma pistol

- A terminator entry with exclusive PC option as heavy weapon

- A Black knight entry with exclusive plasma talons basic wargear.

- A new LS design with big plasma battery

(note that I'm still surprised to see that neither the neph nor the DT has a plasma weapon :D )

 

Actually this story prooves that willing to make evry single entry unique could lead to fluff non sense and crazy situations where an army is defined more by a sngle type of weapon than a spirit of fighting...

 

DA don't need their greenwing to be differenciate as long as their price is equivalent to vanilla one (contrary to the v5 codex where they were more restrictive and more expensive). They work well as they are and the lack of grav option on them has no real influence because few people play grav weapon on infantry due to the salvo profile that limit the moves.

 

If you want to give a "little +" to the greenwing, the 2 solution I may see would be to create special greenwing character as suggested earlier, and giving back the DW member option to the sgt that would allow them to call DW when needed.

[Firepower]

I thought I remembered that Tactical Cannon thing, but I went back and looked at the last DA Codex to check vs the last SM Codex, and both had it.  I didn't dig deep enough apparently. :P

[Gillyfish]

Going back to the original question, I actually think that this book is probably the best we've had in terms of units reflecting the character and background of the Chapter. There are certainly tweaks that could be made, particularly to certain units, but overall the Codex is actually pretty evocative and I don't think it lacks focus.

 

It would certainly be nice to have a few more subtle things to make the green marines a little more distinct from their Codex cousins but it shouldn't be too much as they do have a codex formation. Older tech is a nice idea for them. I do take Firepower's point about why would the DA have more of weapon X than the other original legions, but such logic has not been utilised before (last jetbike(s) in the Imperium springs to mind). I think some of this comes though not just in our special characters but in some of the relics. It might not be appropriate for each squad to have an unusual weapon though (mind you, Blood Angels do get those natty little melta pistols and hand flamers), but not impossible.

[The Shadow Guard]

Hmmmm..... Seen these arguments in third edition, fourth edition... oh well.... Thought I'd just say that when we go to war, we fight with what we have .... not with what we hope to have... or should have had......

and I agree with Gilly that this is probably the best incarnation of a DA Codex ... and I think even better than the second edition Codex Angels of Death,,,,, and personally like the way GW are trying to develop and detail the various SM chapters....

SG

[Brother dean]

 

 

 

I was not saying access to old weapons has to do with being Codex compliant, I was saying that there are plenty of other Chapters which were around when all those toys were still in use, and would be just as likely to have a few in a vault somewhere.  Why would Dark Angels have a pack of volkites tucked away in the Rock's attic while Ultramarines, Fists, Scars, Ravens, Iron Hands and Salamanders don't have any laying around? What special relations are known of the Dark Angels and Forge Worlds?

 

I've never known any actual relation between Dark Angels and plasma weapons, beyond a frequent theme of their artwork, and now the option for a Cannon on a Terminator.  I'm not saying there's no fluff reason, I'm just saying I've never heard one.

 

Well we do have Stasis weapons and Rad weapons tucked away in the attic, everybody just forgets those are unique because they generally suck...  Stasis does anyway..  They arent on a level with Grav in any case...

However, go read "Unremembered Empire for fluff mentions.  Girlyman himself muses on the fact that we were issued weapons that none of the other legions have in quantity.  But he does not call them Plasma, he calls them beam weapons so I am thinking Conversion Beamers and Volkites.

[Slave to Darkness]

Jeez just fold them into the Chaos dex where they belong... Y'all know I'm right ;)

 

Joking aside Dark Angels have been tied with Blood Angels as my fave Chapter(s) since 3rd Ed, I love the background and fluff for the army, shame that they have never really had a good dex since 2nd ed. I don't think that taking the things they share with C:SM out and having to use two dex's is a good idea, how many people complain about the Codex 'Ghazgull' 'Haemonculus' 'Champions of Fenris' and 'Crimson Slaughter' with the 'It should be in the main Codex' *NERDRAGE* argument. 

 

I do like the idea of Codex Unforgiven, but we technically have that now, as GW tells us (in C:SM) that all second founding onwards chapters fight like the one that they came from. 

[shabbadoo]

Shabbadoo, I feel your analysis is flawed. The on paper comparison certainly does favour the white scars but you neglected to acknowledge in your break down the full difference of the command squad and the impact the standard of fortitude, or how both unit composition and army build would normally differentiate them on the table. The standard alone skews the comparison as feel no pain on a huge chunk of the army whilst it's on the table can equate to almost a third increase in the size of the force in regards to attrition. Your lists are also designed to over-state the cost difference without acknowledging the options available to each list. The core of any Ravenwing or White scar army will be the bikes but there really isn't anything keeping either force to field only bikers. I think your example lists work too hard to match list design and as a result the Ravenwing list is not like those I've fielded or seen. Few if any squads of Ravenwing are likely to have veteran sergeants let alone with power-fists/weapons and that's a 150pts of the list. You could get a min unit of black knights and melta bombs for 5 of the sergeants with that (almost). Ravenwing in my experience do not operate in the same way as white scars, partly due to the difference in unit size, only being able to get 6 models, independent attack bikes it all affects how you use these models on the table. White scars like to sweep forwards and charge in, they do it quite well and want large bike squads to help them win fights convincingly. Ravenwing do not play this way effectively. I've always enjoyed most success with Ravenwing by playing the ranged harassment game using positioning to force opponents to chase me whilst I pick off specific targets sacrificing small units (often attack bikes) along the way to achieve this.

So, you believe that a base unit should cost more simply because it may have access to an option that improves it? The options are irrelevant, but I'll take the bait. Taking the Standard of Fortitude (and I'll add in a Dark Shroud too because people do take them), will give more survivability due to 5+ Feel No Pain and another +1 to many Jink saves (the latter of which the White Scars all come with as standard), but at the cost of another 6 bikes. Drop a whole Attack Squadron. Sure, you are tougher now, but now you are now outnumberd 60 to 42, have less wound absorbing capability, and put out even less firepower. Attrition is not your friend, not that it ever was. Maybe I need to add RW Land Speeders though. Those Typhoon + multi-melta ones are viscious, so I put those in for the loss of about 3 more bikes each. I include three, so drop another Attack Squadon and then some. Now you are outnumbered 60 to 37, but you 've got some real firepower, right? That is until you remember that those Whtie Scars bikes all have a 3+ Jink save as standard, and will be coming to kill your AV 10 WS 1 land speeders in close combat with their krak grenades, laughing as they do so. But your RW Command Squad will surely kill stuff dead, and the White Scars Command Squad in no way compares to the RW Command Squad, right? Wrong again. The 3+ jink save they have will keep them relatively safe from the plasma talons, and they could be set up to favor that which they are best at- assault, and for the the same points as your RW Command Squad, the White Scars Command Squad can have an apothecary, four powerfists, and a champion with a power sword. Kiss the RW Command Squad Goodbye, orany RW unti thatcomes to grips with them.

The RW are going to get stomped a mudhole even when fielding a more varied, strongly themed list, because what they can bring to the table is over costed to the point of handi-capping them. Regardless of what you put in the list, the White Scars will still have greater wound absorbing capability and put out more firepower, outclassing the Ravenwing at all levels, even when the Ravenwing force includes every gimicky thing it could possibly take. The main point is, properly costed/structured units would allow for a viable RW force, but they just don't have it going for them. Good thing they look cool!

[Edited for one messed up cost equating to loss of two bikes]

[knife&fork]

RW and vanilla bikers aren't even trying to do the same thing. 

 

RW can pull off the salvo bolters and loads of melta in a reasonable way. For vanilla bikers it's all about those tanky chapter masters and spamming as many relentless grav weapons (savior of the SM codex) as you can.

[Brother dean]

Shabbadoo, I feel your analysis is flawed. The on paper comparison certainly does favour the white scars but you neglected to acknowledge in your break down the full difference of the command squad and the impact the standard of fortitude, or how both unit composition and army build would normally differentiate them on the table. The standard alone skews the comparison as feel no pain on a huge chunk of the army whilst it's on the table can equate to almost a third increase in the size of the force in regards to attrition. Your lists are also designed to over-state the cost difference without acknowledging the options available to each list. The core of any Ravenwing or White scar army will be the bikes but there really isn't anything keeping either force to field only bikers. I think your example lists work too hard to match list design and as a result the Ravenwing list is not like those I've fielded or seen. Few if any squads of Ravenwing are likely to have veteran sergeants let alone with power-fists/weapons and that's a 150pts of the list. You could get a min unit of black knights and melta bombs for 5 of the sergeants with that (almost). Ravenwing in my experience do not operate in the same way as white scars, partly due to the difference in unit size, only being able to get 6 models, independent attack bikes it all affects how you use these models on the table. White scars like to sweep forwards and charge in, they do it quite well and want large bike squads to help them win fights convincingly. Ravenwing do not play this way effectively. I've always enjoyed most success with Ravenwing by playing the ranged harassment game using positioning to force opponents to chase me whilst I pick off specific targets sacrificing small units (often attack bikes) along the way to achieve this.

So, you believe that a base unit should cost more simply because it may have access to an option that improves it? The options are irrelevant, but I'll take the bait. Taking the Standard of Fortitude (and I'll add in a Dark Shroud too because people do take them), will give more survivability due to 5+ Feel No Pain and another +1 to many Jink saves (the latter of which the White Scars all come with as standard), but at the cost of another 8 bikes. Drop a whole Attack Squadron and then some. Sure, you are tougher now, but now you are now outnumberd 60 to 40, have less wound absorbing capability, and put out even less firepower. Attrition is not your friend, not that it ever was. Maybe I need to add RW Land Speeders though. Those Typhoon + multi-melta ones are viscious, so I put those in for the loss of about 3 more bikes each. I include three, so drop another Attack Squadon and then some. Now you are outnumbered 60 to 35, but you 've got some real firepower, right? That is until you remember that those Whtie Scars bikes all have a 3+ Jink save as standard, and will be coming to kill your AV 10 WS 1 land speeders in close combat with their krak grenades, laughing as they do so. But your RW Command Squad will surely kill stuff dead, and the White Scars Command Squad in no way compares to the RW Command Squad, right? Wrong again. The 3+ jink save they have will keep them relatively safe from the plasma talons, and they could be set up to favor that which they are best at- assault, and for the the same points as your RW Command Squad, the White Scars Command Squad can have an apothecary, four powerfists, and a champion with a power sword. Kiss the RW Command Squad Goodbye, orany RW unti thatcomes to grips with them.

The RW are going to get stomped a mudhole even when fielding a more varied, strongly themed list, because what they can bring to the table is over costed to the point of handi-capping them. Regardless of what you put in the list, the White Scars will still have greater wound absorbing capability and put out more firepower, outclassing the Ravenwing at all levels, even when the Ravenwing force includes every gimicky thing it could possibly take. The main point is, properly costed/structured units would allow for a viable RW force, but they just don't have it going for them. Good thing they look cool!

But you are still comparing apples and oranges. If RW try to run as White Scars, yes they will get stomped. Good thing that RW play different and a skilled general will know how to use them correctly.

1st. Our 7 man squads will split into 3 scoring units instead of 2 (fine, the first blood argument, I've heard it and I've not given it up except againt my buddies wolves)

2nd. RW Attack Bikes shooting is not underutilized shooting at the same things the Bolter Bikes have to shoot at, (or vice versa the bolter bikes are not wasted shooting at a tank)

3rd. You did not touch on anything other than bikes like Black Knights, banners, Yes the speeders, Termies (even tho you will say that they are even less cost effective(In fact you already have at least once)) But some of us do know how to use these other units to cover some shortfalls in the basic list.

4th. I dont believe that a White Scar player will actually bring the 60 bikes in your example, the tedium and expense (dollars not points) will cause him to invest in some other units like sterngaurd vets, tanks, Termies, Libbys and Thunderfires. Also, running that many bikes will run out of real estate and will be less mobile not more because they will get in each other's way.

My 1500 list runs 12 bikes, 2 attack, 3 speeders, 5 BK and a bike Libby and I am doing alright, 75% outside of my Wolfbrother... No, there are no Scars in my local Meta.

DarkAngelDentist actually places in top tier in Tournies with RW. I would not dismiss what he is saying

[Mr Bill]

I have to admit that it was Black Knights that attracted me to Dark Angels.  I hope the knights continue to be one of our defining units.

 

Brother Dean, how do you kit your speeders?  

[Brother dean]

I'm old school.  I have 4 metal speeders, one as Sableclaw, 2 AC/HB and one partially assembled with MM and Missile Launcher (that one is waiting on a squad to go with.)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/The%20Ravenwing/DSCN9869.jpg

 

Oh and I do have one Supa Speeda that I usually run as a Dark Shroud.