DA identity in the new codex

[shabbadoo]

But you are still comparing apples and oranges.  If RW try to run as White Scars, yes they will get stomped.  Good thing that RW play different and a skilled general will know how to use them correctly.

 

1st.  Our 7 man squads will split into 3 scoring units instead of 2 (fine, the first blood argument, I've heard it and I've not given it up except againt my buddies wolves)

2nd.  RW Attack Bikes shooting is not  underutilized shooting at the same things the Bolter Bikes have to shoot at, (or vice versa the bolter bikes are not wasted shooting at a tank)

3rd.  You did not touch on anything other than bikes like Black Knights, banners,  Yes the speeders, Termies (even tho you will say that they are even less cost effective(In fact you already have at least once))  But some of us do know how to use these other units to cover some shortfalls in the basic list.

4th.  I dont believe that a White Scar player will actually bring the 60 bikes in your example,  the tedium and expense (dollars not points) will cause him to invest in some other units like sterngaurd vets, tanks, Termies, Libbys and Thunderfires.  Also, running that many bikes will run out of real estate and will be less mobile not more because they will get in each other's way.

 

My 1500 list runs 12 bikes, 2 attack, 3 speeders, 5 BK and a bike Libby and I am doing alright, 75% outside of my Wolfbrother...  No, there are no Scars in my local Meta.

DarkAngelDentist actually places in top tier in Tournies with RW. I would not dismiss what he is saying

 

I am very much not comparing apples and oranges. That would equate to comparing bikes to jetbikes.   I am comparing bikes....to bikes, and bikes to bikes that are practically the same rules-wise.  As to a skilled general, a skilled general will play either force well, so this is worthless to mention- it is a non-factor so far as the point values of the units are concerned.

 

1st: RW do split into one additional more scoring unit, but, as you say, First Blood is then an issue, and one attack bike or  a 3-bike unti is easier to wipe out than five or three and an attack bike.

 

2nd: The shooting of the Whtie Scars' attack bikes is not as margianrlized as you may think.  I put them in the Bike Squadrons, but I didn't need to. White Scars, your see, can buy Attack Bike Squrdonsas as Fast Attack choices, and so they are barely limited in the way you suggest.  I could have set it up as three squadrons of two attck bikes for Whtie scars instead of attaching them to the squds (which they can still do for protection). I'll call that a wash.

 

3rd:  What do you mean? I very specifically just touched on standards and black knights in the form of RW Command Squads.  BKs are the same as the command variant, ergo I wouldn't think that I would have to mention the same thing for them too.  Of course if you want to include a unit of Black Knights (which we often will), five of them take the place of 6 RW bikes.  Another Attack Squdron gone. As that lost unit's attack bike can't exist on its own like it can with White Scars (as an FA choice; see below), it has to go away too, and the BKs gain another member.  Net loss one attack bike.  Now you are outnumberd 60-35.

 

4th:  Guess again.  I see Whtie Scars forces like this often enough because it works so well.  Look around on the net and you'll see more.  A 50+ bike White Scars force is not uncommon because they do numbers very, very well.  What I do often see, and which I left out, are a couple of Stormtalons included for anit-air/anti-armor ground attack. You may also see Rhino Squad full of various Whtie Scars PA untis too, as their Rhinos gain Scout and so can Outflank (nice bit of variety there to be sure).  Other than that, not much of a difference.  The comparison was about the discrepancies between the basic bikes though.  There is not much wrong with the cost of everything else (though the BKs are a bit weighted toward the expensive side of things too).

 

I don't dismiss what DAD is saying, but he is trying to put lipstick on a pig.  If he were playing White Scars, he would no doubt be doing even better than he is in the tournament scene, as he would be having 10+ extra bikes in his force to kill the enemy/take objectives with.  Whoever he does beat with his RW, he can hold that up as an even greater victory, as he is handicapped by about 250+ points if he includes a large number of RW bikes in his force.

[Darkangeldentist]

Brother Dean, thank you for the kind words, it does something glorious to my ego to hear such praise. However I fear you are praising me too much. I am no longer the keen tournament goer that I used to be and my last big event was at the start of the year as part of a team tournament. I did well but my team did not. If I still attended regular tournaments then there would be more battle reports from me.

 

I enjoy my 40k and always play with a competitive mindset but with mostly casual players around me, it does me no good to always run the most ruthless list I can think of. 

 

Sabbadoo, you may well have a point that I am trying to make something look better than it is, however it's all coloured by personal experience, perspective and local meta. For me, the Ravenwing have been such a potent and devastating force games have been over before turn 3. It's hard for your opponent to enjoy a game when nearly every model in their army is dead before the halfway point. My experience of Ravenwing places them very highly in terms of potency and effectiveness, with the proviso of getting first turn. I also know that I could not achieve what I have with a White scars army. Ravenwing work better for the way I want to play.

 

White scars play aggressive and like to charge into combat, in this regard they are superior to Ravenwing and if I played to this style then I wouldn't be arguing with you. However thanks mostly to the standard of devastation and black knights (and command squads) with their plasma talons and grenade launchers Ravenwing can play a ranged game. The black knights also allow something of a close combat presence but for the most part I find Ravenwing do most of their work at range.

 

You suggested a number of changes that might be made to the Ravenwing list but you didn't take the one I suggested with only the points from dropping the sergeant wargear. Dropping the wargear and changing to the standard of devastation buys you a 4 man unit of black knights which would actually make the number advantage of the scars less pronounced and the firepower balance changes significantly. 3+ saves, be they regular armour or jinking cover saves still fail a third of the time and if you turbo-boost the command squad to spread the area of effect from the banner you could get all of the ravenwing squads to benefit. That is a lot firepower without even including the attack bikes or black knights.

 

There are no local White scar players in my local meta, a couple of others do play Ravenwing but I've not really had a chance to see it play out on the table. 

 

Point cost is at least influenced by the other options available. Based upon their intrinsic rules and abilities only for themselves then I would probably agree with you that they are too expensive. In spite of this however, I have never felt that their cost was so far above their value that it impinged on my efficacy on the table. Particularly when exploiting certain combinations, such as the standard of devastation.

 

All this list discussion is getting away from the original topic though. 

 

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yes, the DA vs WS discussion is sidetracking the topic. If any of the intervenients want, feel free to open a thread for it.

[Varizel]

To add to the discussion, the identity of DA has always been all over the place in fluff and game, i think. In fluff, we are noble knights with american indians totem/emblems/trappings who uses ancient tech weaponries and has organizations within organizations within organizations that keeps secret from each others that we hunt our own not so noble traitorous brothers, thus making us not so noble too.

Geebuz, i don't even understand what i just wrote up there because it is so all over the place.

For in game though, i never got the whole part where plasma is supposed to be our schtick besides the plasma cannon for Tacts at 3rd ed. I am looking at most major artwork for DA as in book covers...

- the 3rd ed codex has a cover of a chaplain with plasma pistol and a bunch of marines surrounding him, and one of the marine is holding a meltagun.

- On 4th ed, we got another cover of a chaplain with plasma pistol and a bunch of marines surrounding him holding swords and bolters.

- On 6th ed rulebook cover, we got a company master with plasma pistol, and a bunch of marines surrounding him, and one of the marine is holding a meltagun.

If i go by pics alone, i would've though that Dark Angels LOVED their plasma pistols, swords, and meltaguns. Sadly when you open the rulebook to look at the rules, there is nothing indicating that Dark Angels loved their plasma pistols, swords, and meltaguns.

I mean, look at our Special Characters... besides Seraphicus, nobody carries plasma pistols. There's not even a relic plasma pistols.

For swords, sure thing our Special Characters loved swords... sword of secrets, sword of silence, raven sword, traitor's bane, but all the new stuffs for melee that came out for Dark Angels in 6th ed codex are... maces... with only 2 swords -- The Monster Slayer of Caliban and Blade of Caliban. We got.... mace of absolution, mace of redemption, black knight mace, hell.. i'll count the flail here too because it functions like a mace in game.

For Meltaguns... yeah.... nothing in the book about meltaguns.

Instead, what i got in the book was mace and plasma cannons galore. I mean, we got Plasma Cannons EVERYWHERE. I mean our Termies got plasma cannon, we got a new LS with plasma cannon, hell even our relic has a combi plasma cannon. Why Plasma Cannon anyway? That thing is new tech, that's why the traitor marines don't have it and the loyalists have it. They could've gone the route of making a new weapon like every other variant chapters. I mean, blood angels got hand flamers and infernus pistols. Space Wolves got Hellfrost. Marines got Gravs. Us... plasma cannons... why plasma cannons, everybody got plasma cannons. It's not even a distinct weaponry only Dark Angels has. So uncool and uncreative, imho.

Well... we might consider that it is the special issue wargear that might differentiate us from normal marines or other marines... and this is true. But then i look at our distinctive special issue wargears, why does all of them involves invulnerable saves besides the porta-rack. I mean we got 3 invulnerable saves related items:

- Displacer Field

- Conversion Field

- Powerfield Generator

Why do we need even 3 invulnerable saves items?

TL:DR version:

We are a defensive, not so noble marines who hunt our not so noble brothers... using our ancient plasma cannons,mace, and defensive techs. Please ignore all our major artwork where we have plasma pistols,swords, and meltaguns mostly.

My 2 cents, and sorry if it sounds like ranting, cuz i think i just did .

[Interrogator Stobz]

You aren't too far from the mark there Varizel, there are many people that would like some clarity of theme (and some decent swords ;) ). I actually quite like the current dex, but as discussed in many threads it still needs lots of work.

 

stobz

[Brother dean]

You've left out the ancient stasis and rad weapons there Varzial.

 

I feel we need a couple more additions like conversion beamers and volkites but they barely existed when our book came out.

[Firepower]

You aren't too far from the mark there Varizel, there are many people that would like some clarity of theme

I look forward to the rants when one feature or another is shucked for the sake of a coherent, singular image. For instance, 'Where did my feathers go? This is an outrage! Everyone knows Dark Angels are Native American conflicted clandestine European Knights of not really so unique organization!'

As for all the stasis rad grenade bubbles of glistening archeotech, I do remember lots of Wargear Cards like that back in Angels of Death, but I don't remember if they were just for DA or for DA and BA...

[Bryan Blaire]

Almost all the Wargear that has become specific to a certain Chapter/gene line was originally generic and usable by anyone IIRC.

 

All the different "Fields" are part of those, but seems to have been made DA specific based on Belial's displacer field gear from Storm of Vengeance.

 

As far as the "plasma schtick", it seems that GW took its cues from the armament of the Chapter Master as to what the Chapter likes most.

 

It's simplistic, but really, it doesn't have to be that complicated.

[Varizel]

Almost all the Wargear that has become specific to a certain Chapter/gene line was originally generic and usable by anyone IIRC.

 

All the different "Fields" are part of those, but seems to have been made DA specific based on Belial's displacer field gear from Storm of Vengeance.

 

As far as the "plasma schtick", it seems that GW took its cues from the armament of the Chapter Master as to what the Chapter likes most.

 

It's simplistic, but really, it doesn't have to be that complicated.

 

Ooo... i understand that most of our "Fields" are actually old wargear avalaible to everyone before. I am just saying that why all of them involves invul save. Why not have other effects too. 

 

I don't believe on the armament of the chapter master reflects what chapter likes most though. Calgar uses powerfists and underslung bolters... are Ultramarines Power Fists fetish marines? Dante uses Combi Melta and Power Axe, are we to believe that Blood Angels uses Axes and meltas? 

 

If we are going by the plasma schtick, i would've expected other weapons too besides plasma cannons love in our codex. We only got plasma talons afterall for a non plasma cannon stuffs. It is more that our schtick now is Plasma Cannon... not plasma. Otherwise i would expect to see a variant plasma guns... and plasma pistols. 

 

The reason why i am a bit miffed with plasma cannon that we got is, that

1. it doesn't change the way the plasma cannon works compared to other chapters. You could've made it like .... the plasma cannon is the prototype plasma cannon or ancient tech plasma cannon, thus can be overloaded for a large blast, or can fire single shots or something along the lines. But nope... it is the same plasma cannon. I understand in terms of balance, but it just feels..... mediocre in the creativity part of the design studio, especially they then gives out distinctive weaponry to other variants and vanilla marines.

 

2. Plasma cannon has been a pretty unremarkable weapon compared to the gun variant in terms of gameplay. Plasma Cannon against an opponent that spaces his dudes apart properly only got 1 or 2 hits on him. We cannot move if we wanna shot it. It cannot fire overwatch, it cannot fire skywards. The 2+ save guys we have to fight with usually are packing a 3++. It doesn't stop me taking them, but i just felt disappointed that the plasma cannon was the plasma of choice that the design studio focuses instead of all plasma weaponries.

 

This of course can be fixed come next edition, like what brother dean said... volkite, conversion beamer, etc. or they can redesign some of our weapons. And just like brother stobz said... i want my swords :D. 

 

It IS simplistic though as you said... more like GW screw up on our pix with meltaguns and swords and plasma pistols :D. They should've made pix with us, holding maces in one hand and plasma cannon in another.... with shields aura shimmering, wearing robes... with american indians imagery. That btw would've been a cool pix imho :D.

 

And no... i don't hate our codex, i love them. I am just saying it kinda not in line with what i had in mind when i look at the pix and you know... the SWORD emblem. Hell, i even use a displacer field on my company master. 

[Bryan Blaire]

The Ultramarines are "odd" in that they aren't supposed to be specialists anyway. But given the Centurions, yeah, those almost look like big Calgars actually.

 

As far as the BA, they do have special meltas that no one else can get now (flamers and flamer armament on a vehicle as well). Yes, it is just one small thing, but it is there. Our additional small thing is the plasma talons (and plasma cannons on a lot of other things). It doesn't have to be overwhelming to be a "theme". Themes aren't things that slap you in the face over and over again with their obviousness. That's a cliche, not a theme.

 

There is no Plains Indian theming any more. Folks are going to have to let that one go (even me). The feathers are our "Angel" legacy, most likely, or possibly left overs of Caliban (which fits my proposed theme that the DA have as "the relics of Caliban" or "legacy of Caliban" - to borrow the term from the book series).

 

On the fields for invulnerable saves, they do have some other effects. But their functions all include protection, so what other kind of save is it going to grant?

 

I'd like better swords too. But I don't get my hopes up. ;)

[Phoebus]

Fluff-wise, I don't think the Dark Angels are a muddled concept.  Ten years ago?  Fair enough.  Now?  No.

 

There is only one prevailing theme nowadays, and that is of a knightly order in the vein of the Christian military orders of western Europe - like the Knights Templar. What remains of the old Native American theme has been relegated to sidebar mentions of the Deathwing origin story*.  Instances of a feather hanging from a weapon or a belt aside, there is no evidence of the old "Plains World" iconography that dominated the Dark Angels two decades ago.  The iconography is instead overwhelmingly Calibanite/chivalric.  And while the "Plains World" culture clearly existed "in the background" during the era of the "Deathwing" short story (Dark Angels might have adopted formal names, but remembered their tribal lives and names, as well as their relatives), what we now see is Dark Angels giving up their connections with their past lives (as early as Third Edition) and being outright mentally conditioned to lose memories prior to their initiation (Ravenwing).

 

Now, don't get me wrong.  If you like the Native American theme and still wish to incorporate it in a Dark Angels army, there will always be room in the nebulous "canon" of Warhammer 40k to make that happen.  It just seems obvious to me that GW is moving away with it... and, as a result, the Chapter's background and theme is a lot less muddled.

 

* And, even as the new Codex suggested that this story is apocryphal (meant as "instruction" for younger Dark Angels, by reinforcing themes of "coming home only to discover betrayal"), The Unremembered Empire dropped the bomb that the Deathwing existed as a formation before the Heresy had ended. Again, I'm sure you can find a way to reconcile this with the "Deathwing" short story (e.g., perhaps the Plains World simply adopted names, titles, themes, etc., from the Chapter that recruited from their tribes), but recent material just doesn't seem interested in validating "Deathwing" and its themes (among them, a Native American sub-culture that is prevalent within the Chapter's consciousness).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think there's no more native american going. The studio is painting feathers normally, not in native amercan style as before. That leads me to believe that there are feather s around the models because we are Angels,so the feather is just a tie in  motive for angelic theme, no longer for native american. AS phoebus pointed out the DW story now is more of a myth than an event that ocurred.

[Firepower]

Fluff-wise, I don't think the Dark Angels are a muddled concept. Ten years ago? Fair enough. Now? No.

There is only one prevailing theme nowadays, and that is of a knightly order in the vein of the Christian military orders of western Europe - like the Knights Templar. What remains of the old Native American theme has been relegated to sidebar mentions of the Deathwing origin story*. Instances of a feather hanging from a weapon or a belt aside, there is no evidence of the old "Plains World" iconography that dominated the Dark Angels two decades ago. The iconography is instead overwhelmingly Calibanite/chivalric. And while the "Plains World" culture clearly existed "in the background" during the era of the "Deathwing" short story (Dark Angels might have adopted formal names, but remembered their tribal lives and names, as well as their relatives), what we now see is Dark Angels giving up their connections with their past lives (as early as Third Edition) and being outright mentally conditioned to lose memories prior to their initiation (Ravenwing).

Now, don't get me wrong. If you like the Native American theme and still wish to incorporate it in a Dark Angels army, there will always be room in the nebulous "canon" of Warhammer 40k to make that happen. It just seems obvious to me that GW is moving away with it... and, as a result, the Chapter's background and theme is a lot less muddled.

* And, even as the new Codex suggested that this story is apocryphal (meant as "instruction" for younger Dark Angels, by reinforcing themes of "coming home only to discover betrayal"), The Unremembered Empire dropped the bomb that the Deathwing existed as a formation before the Heresy had ended. Again, I'm sure you can find a way to reconcile this with the "Deathwing" short story (e.g., perhaps the Plains World simply adopted names, titles, themes, etc., from the Chapter that recruited from their tribes), but recent material just doesn't seem interested in validating "Deathwing" and its themes (among them, a Native American sub-culture that is prevalent within the Chapter's consciousness).

While the Native American theme has been quietly side-lined, I think it's a mistake to simply focus on the knightly theme. Even as an aesthetic, that's only a relatively recent addition from the last dex. Prior to, the Angels were largely monastic in design.

I maintain that the knightly theme as an identity ended with the fall of Caliban, and since then the proud knight identity has been supplanted by the secretive, insular, shady identity of a Chapter with a very big secret which it will go to any lengths (including, ironically {or paradoxically}, treachery) to keep under wraps. The Fallen are the primary pillar of the Dark Angels' identity now, by a wide margin. Any attempt to drift away from that is, in my opinion, muddying the identity, because it's been that way from the beginning.

As a disclaimer, I'm not making this argument from the perspective of a Templar player. As I've said elsewhere, there's plenty of room in the 'knight' category of identity, because there are tons of different knightly historical orders and themes for different Chapters to draw from. Now, on the subject of the Knights Templar, it should be pretty obvious who has dibs there The Dark Angels are more in line with the autonomous knightly orders of Europe, rather than the ones working very closely with the whims and sanction of the papacy, which is more Black Templar-esque. Of course, later in their history, the Knights Templar drifted away and became more autonomous, and as a result invited the wrath of the church once they had enough influence and money to threaten total papal supremacy, but...

Ok, getting way off topic, and this is not a history lecture. I've said enough to get my point across

[Phoebus]

Firepower,

 

With respect, when you talk about "monastic" versus "knightly" concepts, you present a false choice.  The Christian military orders I was referring to were both monastic and knightly by definition.

 

Also, when you say the Dark Angels' knightly identity disappeared with the fall of Caliban, you fall into somewhat of a trap.  The identity still exists; it is the entire concept of the Inner Circle.  What you have, essentially, is a Codex Chapter with a rather limited Calibanite identity whose most trusted and proven warriors are eventually initiated in certain truths and secrets.  The further into the Inner Circle a warrior is drawn, the stronger the "knight of Caliban" identity becomes, culminating with - you guessed it - the Deathwing Knights.

 

This incidentally, is not that much of a departure from the military order theme I referenced: whether one is talking about the Knights Templar, the Knights Hospitaller, the Teutonic Knights, etc., the knights themselves were actually a minority within the overall fighting force they fielded.  Their mounted sergeants and men-at-arms technically outnumbered the knights by a comfortable margin.

 

And all this, of course, certainly reconciles with the historical examples you brought up.  The historical Knights Templar were brought down because they became too powerful and influential (vis-a-vis their various strongholds and banking networks).  The way they were brought down, though, was through (probably trumped-up) accusations of secret heretical practices.  The Dark Angels, too, can be accused of dark secrets... but have managed to keep theirs concealed.

 

Finally, thematically speaking, the concept the Black Templars have "dibs" on are the Teutonic Knights.  Usage of the term Templar aside, your iconography is practically a "copy and paste".  Additionally, your hatred of witches, etc., is also a rather direct parallel of the Teutons, whose crusades were primarily against eastern European pagans.

[Brother dean]

RE: Feathers.

 

See also Winged Hussars and Cavalry Picks.

[Firepower]

I was not suggesting that a monastic focus was mutually exclusive with a knightly focus, in terms of fluff. I was suggesting that it was nearly exclusively monastic in model design, prior to the recent releases. With exception to a few sword icons here and there, DA models were differentiated almost exclusively by their robes, censers, etc. The knightly aesthetic was hammered on with the latest codex. This is simply in reference to models, not the Angels' fluff.

Nor did I mean to suggest that the knightly aspects disappeared entirely with the fall of Caliban. I was suggesting that it became a veneer, or at best a distant second, to the theme of the Fallen. The noble knightly order trappings still exist in the form of Chapter structure, but even that is now shaped around the hunt of the Fallen. So even as the Chapter's highest echelons resemble the knightly origins of the Legion and the Order, the ideals they stood for are almost dead, consumed by millenia of obsession over a stain on the honor of those knightly origins. In an attempt to satisfy honor, they've all but destroyed it.* Words are sort of failing me in this paragraph, but I hope I'm communicating the point well enough.

*This, by the way, is the one feature of Dark Angel fluff I actually like. On the surface it's paradoxical idiocy, committing treasonous acts to cover up a really big, very old treasonous act. But I've come to regard it more as a Captain Ahab styled self destructive obsession, wherein a singular goal corrupts the reasoning and sense of the Angels. They're not idiots, but simply the product of 10,000 years of a self sustaining downward spiral moral entropy, lost to their senses until they sacrifice the very nobility they have been trying to preserve.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think that what this conversation is really revealing is that the Dark Angels have, frankly, a weak premise. They are the "best gear hiding the fact that many went bad during the heresy and are obsessed with hunting them down" marines. The trouble is that all marines have access to incredible gear, every legion had some traitors, and everyone tries to kill Chaos legionnaires when they get the chance. So where does that leave Dark Angels? It leaves them with players who aren't satisfied because their models aren't the best and a chapter's who's fluff seems immature and inconsistent.

 

If you ask me, the Dark Angels need a serious rewrite, from the bottom to the top.

[knife&fork]

There's also the fact that Marine chapters are already a sci-fi version of monastic knightly orders. I think that's why it feels a bit off to just make them more monastic and more knightly. At least when you get to things like the DW knights who are some sort of monk-monk knight-knight-knights with super special secret keeping.

 

Then again people don't seem to mind when grey knights turned into literal grey knights so I might be alone in this. 

[ElectricPaladin]

There's also the fact that Marine chapters are already a sci-fi version of monastic knightly orders. I think that's why it feels a bit off to just make them more monastic and more knightly. At least when you get to things like the DW knights who are some sort of monk-monk knight-knight-knights with super special secret keeping.

 

Then again people don't seem to mind when grey knights turned into literal grey knights so I might be alone in this. 

 

At least they don't have monk-claws and knight-strike missiles...

[Epimetheus13]

The noble knightly order trappings still exist in the form of Chapter structure, but even that is now shaped around the hunt of the Fallen. So even as the Chapter's highest echelons resemble the knightly origins of the Legion and the Order, the ideals they stood for are almost dead, consumed by millenia of obsession over a stain on the honor of those knightly origins. In an attempt to satisfy honor, they've all but destroyed it.

Bang on - and to me, this is what Cypher is all about. His raison d'etre is the restoration of the ideals of the Order.

 

And the corollary is: Cypher cares nothing for the Imperium or the Emperor - they are useful only as a means for the Order to live up to/demonstrate their commitments to their old Order's ideals. The irony being, as long as Dark Angels continue to go to extreme lengths to hunt Fallen, they continue to disappoint the Orders' ideals. It's a vicious/negative circle.

 

Is that enough to uniquely define a whole Chapter? Kind of...but it's buried in multiple sources (Black Library novels, dataslates), not all in our Codex. If we stick to our Codex we only get half the story and we seem only partially defined.

 

Of course, our attempt as hobbyists to piece this identity together parallels the Dark Angels' search for clues in the fluff...or maybe I'm getting too meta! Others may have a completely different view. :-)

[Bryan Blaire]

Think you lost me ElectricPaladin, because I actually do think the DA models are the best. Additionally, the fluff seems more mature and grimdark than the tragically noble "ten seconds from turning into a frothing crazy all the time because our beautiful mutant daddy got slapped down so hard we feel it 10K years later" Space Vampires; and much more mature than the Mary-Sue Smurfettes or the Wolfy-Wolfy everything Space Pups.

 

The fact is, the premise for ALL big Four chapters are weak and cliched, and honestly, I like them all for it. I like the darker sides of all of them even more. This game is all about the camp, IMO, always has been. ;)

 

All the Chapters could do with a re-write to be more original. Heck, the whole game could do with that.

[Firepower]

All the Chapters could do with a re-write to be more original. Heck, the whole game could do with that.

 

No!  NO!  Ye gods man, haven't you seen the supplements!?

[knife&fork]

 

All the Chapters could do with a re-write to be more original. Heck, the whole game could do with that.

 

No!  NO!  Ye gods man, haven't you seen the supplements!?

 

 

What he said :D I don't want another Ward treatment of the fluff! 

[ElectricPaladin]

Think you lost me ElectricPaladin, because I actually do think the DA models are the best. Additionally, the fluff seems more mature and grimdark than the tragically noble "ten seconds from turning into a frothing crazy all the time because our beautiful mutant daddy got slapped down so hard we feel it 10K years later" Space Vampires; and much more mature than the Mary-Sue Smurfettes or the Wolfy-Wolfy everything Space Pups.

The fact is, the premise for ALL big Four chapters are weak and cliched, and honestly, I like them all for it. I like the darker sides of all of them even more. This game is all about the camp, IMO, always has been.

All the Chapters could do with a re-write to be more original. Heck, the whole game could do with that.

Well, it's certainly true that the entire world of Warhammer 40k suffers from a great deal of creative glut. However, attempting to put the entirely entertaining practice of chapter preference trash-talk aside, let me try to outline why I feel that the Dark Angels suffer in particular:

• The chapter's identity is based on two big secrets, neither of which are unique to the chapter.
  • A goodly chunk of the chapter went rogue during the Heresy. This is true of all chapters.
  • The "parent" chapter is manipulating its successors, suborning their command structures in order to remain, in some sense, the legion they once were. This is also true of the Black Templars and was true, at one time, of the Astral Claws.
• As a result, the chapter's actions come across as incoherent, inconsistent, and schizophrenic. They are terribly concerned with keeping a secret that nobody cares about, and they pursue this with an entirely pedestrian form of Astartes malfeasance.

To me, it feels like... I don't know. If you went to work at an American corporation and discovered that not only were they engaged in the typical tax-dodging nonsense that American corporations do all the time, they treated it like a big secret, to the point that they would gather in the board room wearing masks and robes in order to discuss the dark secret of... our tax shelter in the Virgin Islands. Dum dum dum!!! If you were any kind of American businessman, you'd laugh your off.

I agree that the other "big four" chapters have issues with creative glut, but I think that they are much more consistent. The Blood Angels are dying because of a degenerative genetic flaw, but are dedicated to remaining noble guardians of mankind for as long as they can, and their successors each represent various ways of dealing with this inevitability, from the Lamenters (denial and grief) to the Blood Drinkers (magical thinking) to the Flesh Tearers (rage). The Space Wolves represent Astartes as atheist ritualist transhumans who cling to what remains of their humanity by emulating the gritty and gleeful violence of their space frontiersmen forebearers.

The point is that both the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves are pure style. They aren't dependent upon plot elements - either history or current circumstances - to define their nature (although both their history and their circumstances contribute to their nature).

The Dark Angels, on the other hand, are based on history and circumstances that just don't make sense. They are keeping a secret that isn't a secret, and they go about keeping this secret through organizational slight-of-hand that is entirely mundane.

I'm sympathetic. I think that the Dark Angels could be awesome - secretive monkish/knightly Astartes who are caught between their ingrained urge to act as Mankind's defenders and regain their former nobility and their desire to be seen as noble by keeping their terrible secret... the trouble is that when their secrets aren't that terrible - when they're entirely mundane - it falls apart.

There are a number of things you could do to fix the Dark Angels, and it wouldn't be that hard.

1. What if it was Luther who was loyal and the Lion who had gone rogue? Then the Dark Angels could be keeping the secret shame of their own Primarch's treachery.
2. What if the Dark Angels were motivated by compassion, not vengeance, and were willing to accept "reformed" Fallen - as well as those engendered with their geneseed - into their numbers? Those hoods could hide the stumps of hacked off or pried out Chaos mutations and eight-sided scars from flayed-off tattoos.
3. What if the Dark Angels had a motivation tangential to the Imperium? What if the Lion was still alive and his chapter was trying to find a way to put him on the throne of Terra?

But it's none of those. It's a non-secret that nobody cares about. I'm sorry, but the fact that GW needs better naming conventions doesn't really compare to the enormous number of missed opportunities, inconsistencies, and irrational behavior in this codex's fluff.

[Bryan Blaire]

Of everything you named, only the DA seem like a non-cliche in there. ;) What you see as style is cliche. There is zero original or of interest in what you described, comparatively.

 

I understand that you don't get the DA and feel like it falls short. All of the other Chapters and Successors feel similar for all other Legions to me (well, the Iron Hands are interesting to me, I'd play Fists, but they'd be BT anyway if I did, so not really gaining anything there, still a cliche). It happens for people.

 

BTW, the BT aren't manipulating any Successors, they don't have any they are aligned with. They just have larger than usual numbers themselves.

 

None of your suggestions for a re-write are more interesting or make sense compared to what we already have. ;)