Champions of Fenris?

[Joasht]

Greetings!
I just got myself Champions of Fenris and I must say I was pretty impressed by it; fairly surprised I barely heard anything about it during its initial release.....and I honestly still hear very little about it. I figure it probably isn't considered a competitive option over the regular dex, and I can see army building being somewhat challenging if not careful. I reckon the army needs to maximize bodies and minimize special wargear, but I am uncertain if taking more Wolf Guard (even with their free +1 WS) is worth the notable price difference.

 

Has anyone tried the rules out, and if so, how did it go?

 

Thanks!

[Lord Blackwood]

Oh it can be competitive  infact one of our best Wolf Lord options comes out of it. It's a great book , I like it better than our actual dex. All my lists are built from that book and I do fairly well  when I get to play. 

[ORKILL]

I have had pretty good results using Champions of Fenris. I play 3 tournaments a month, sometimes more and the last few months have netted me 2 1st places, 1 second, and three third places. The build is definitely strong and best of all I can reliably assault again. It has been a lot of fun.

[skeletoro]

There is very little opportunity cost to ensuring that all your wolf guard and thunder wolf packs are in a COF formation/detachment (and you can still take troops in a combined arms detachment on the side, for ObjSec.)

[Frater Cornelius]

Champs of Fenris is damn fine because you to get avoid the troops tax. If you want performance, I have written up a small batrep for my current TDA+TWC force. Take a look: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299291-a-storm-gathers-list-building-30/?p=3867713

[TopToffee]

Really tempted to use 2 CoF detachments to make a 2000pt list with 24 Thunderwolves (22 plus WL and WGBL) and not much else.

 

Probably ultra uncompetitive but could be pretty funny.

[Rift Blade]

Have to agree with everyone here. CoF is very competitive. Lets Wolves field all the different types of Great Companies they talk about in the fluff. My last game with them I played against an Armoured Co. list & decided to give him a taste of his own medicine with an Iron Wolf style list. LR & 2 LRC's, 2 Vindis & a Sicarian with min. WGTDA in 3 LR's, 2 IP's with a servitor each & a RP. He conceded by turn 3. He had 5 Russes of various types, 3 or 4 Chimeras plus a lot of melta vets.. 

[Raulmichile]

So do you think CoF supplement is superior to CSW? In which situations does theb CSW fares better than the supplement?

[Joasht]

Thanks all, appreciate the feedback thus far. Has the lack of objective secured been an issue?

[Lord Blackwood]

Thanks all, appreciate the feedback thus far. Has the lack of objective secured been an issue?

Ive never had it been an issue my units usually overrun and slaughter troop choices and score when they are the only things on the objective. OR  My units slaughter such a large amount of the enemy army that they dont have the time to worry about objectives because they are being tabled. WS5 on all your Wolf Guard and Thunderwolves makes them fantastic troop clearers if you wanna run decent bikers ? Wolf Guard Bikers are now WS5 T5 BS 5   And higher leadership  than swiftclaws OH and they dont take up a fast attack SO MORE THUNDERWOLVES!  You can run some very nasty assault heavy quick gap closing lists with CoF  you can force yer opponent to react to you and deal with what yer gonna do.  They on the objective you need? Kill them off of it , CUT THE THREADS OF WHOEVER IS IN  YOUR WAY.  

 

You can also always take a second detachment of an HQ  and Troops and such since the COF only requires 1 HQ and 2 Elites its very easy to take as part of a split detachment army. 

[TopToffee]

 

Thanks all, appreciate the feedback thus far. Has the lack of objective secured been an issue?

Ive never had it been an issue my units usually overrun and slaughter troop choices and score when they are the only things on the objective. OR  My units slaughter such a large amount of the enemy army that they dont have the time to worry about objectives because they are being tabled. WS5 on all your Wolf Guard and Thunderwolves makes them fantastic troop clearers if you wanna run decent bikers ? Wolf Guard Bikers are now WS5 T5 BS 5   And higher leadership  than swiftclaws OH and they dont take up a fast attack SO MORE THUNDERWOLVES!  You can run some very nasty assault heavy quick gap closing lists with CoF  you can force yer opponent to react to you and deal with what yer gonna do.  They on the objective you need? Kill them off of it , CUT THE THREADS OF WHOEVER IS IN  YOUR WAY.  

 

You can also always take a second detachment of an HQ  and Troops and such since the COF only requires 1 HQ and 2 Elites its very easy to take as part of a split detachment army.

 

Exceptionally so, since if you so desired (and yes, it's not al all fluffy, and very very cheesy), you can fill all the CoF force org requirements for a total of 70pts

[Frater Cornelius]

Actually, 20 points. Take two separate naked Servitors and no Iron Priest. That way they take up an Elite slot each and you have two drooling retards to park on an objective and forget about.

[TopToffee]

Actually, 20 points. Take two separate naked Servitors and no Iron Priest. That way they take up an Elite slot each and you have two drooling retards to park on an objective and forget about.

havent got my book to hand, but fairly sure you need an HQ as well, hence 70pts total.

[Rift Blade]

I would not say that Cof is superior to the CSW, just different. IMO, it comes down to play style. I play both CoF & CSW as stand alone ne army lists(I'm still making sure I know the rules) & have had great success with both. What CoF does for us is give us a flexability in making pure SW lists that is probably the envy of most other SM's out there. As for Objective Secured, as the others have stated, really has not been an issue. Your opponent has the objective? Clear them off it & take it. I personally find in the games I play that Objective Secured has hardly ever mattered & the flexibility that Wolves Unleashed or CoF detachments give you more then makes up for it. My two cents anyways.

[Frater Cornelius]

Oh it can be competitive  infact one of our best Wolf Lord options comes out of it. It's a great book , I like it better than our actual dex. All my lists are built from that book and I do fairly well  when I get to play. 

 

Not quite true. Our bestest of the bestest Lord of bestness actually comes from the regular book. Wolf Lord, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunderwolf, Armour of Russ, Helm of Durfast. 255 points. 7 Attacks either with S6 AP3 Shred Rending at effective I10 or S10 AP2 Rending at effective I5 all with WS6 and re-roll to hit all while having 4HP, T5, 2+/4++. There is no IC in the game that can match the offensive capabilities of this dude. If you really want to go overboard you can give him Wulfenstone as well :D

[bebe]

I just had a match last night against this list:

 

Champions of Fenris - Bretheren of the Fell Handed

HQ – Bjorn the Fellhanded, Helfrost Cannon, Drop Pod 255

Elites - 2x Venerable Dreadnought, Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield, Drop Pod 360

Elites – 3x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Great Wolf Claw,  Drop Pod 540

Elites: Murderfang , Drop pod 170

Fast Attack - 15 Fenrisian Wolves 120
Fast Attack - Drop pod 35

Allied Detachment:

Knight Errant 370

 

I played my Eldar Wave Serpent list against it. First off this list will go first about 75% of the time - Roll and then try and seize with a +!. Bjorn himself might be among the most durable HQs in the game now too.  Helfrost cannons are nasty and any vehicle you can catch with your dreads is dead. Of course the trick is to block off your opponent's movement. The guy I played was pretty good leaving little room on the table to move my wave serpents out of harm's way. Seven drop pods nd IK and seven dreads can take up space when deployed cleverly.

 

The muderfang is killable but ridiculous when it hits - up to TEN attacks. Seriously? And the helfrost is a very nice weapon. Everything had 5+ inv. save too. And Admantium will - well. So a little psychic defense at least. It happened I was playing a summoning Eldar list which helped and I field 21 swooping hawks, lol. Still - it was a match. It is a very tough list if you like elite forces

[Lord Blackwood]

Oh it can be competitive infact one of our best Wolf Lord options comes out of it. It's a great book , I like it better than our actual dex. All my lists are built from that book and I do fairly well when I get to play.

Not quite true. Our bestest of the bestest Lord of bestness actually comes from the regular book. Wolf Lord, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunderwolf, Armour of Russ, Helm of Durfast. 255 points. 7 Attacks either with S6 AP3 Shred Rending at effective I10 or S10 AP2 Rending at effective I5 all with WS6 and re-roll to hit all while having 4HP, T5, 2+/4++. There is no IC in the game that can match the offensive capabilities of this dude. If you really want to go overboard you can give him Wulfenstone as well

well looks like I have to model another wolf lord on a thunderwolf CURSE YOU IMMERSTURM

[TopToffee]

Oh it can be competitive infact one of our best Wolf Lord options comes out of it. It's a great book , I like it better than our actual dex. All my lists are built from that book and I do fairly well when I get to play.

Not quite true. Our bestest of the bestest Lord of bestness actually comes from the regular book. Wolf Lord, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Thunderwolf, Armour of Russ, Helm of Durfast. 255 points. 7 Attacks either with S6 AP3 Shred Rending at effective I10 or S10 AP2 Rending at effective I5 all with WS6 and re-roll to hit all while having 4HP, T5, 2+/4++. There is no IC in the game that can match the offensive capabilities of this dude. If you really want to go overboard you can give him Wulfenstone as well

That's a nice build. Though it's worth mentioning that those Initiative ratings are only when fighting in a challenge (and I think they're equivalent I10 and I6 respectively - an enemy with I6 would have their initiative brought down to 1, and would then strike simultaneously with the Wolf Lord)

[Frater Cornelius]

Still worth it :D

[skeletoro]

That is definitely a nice build. If only the effective I6 (not 5) applied outside challenges. I find myself putting my pack leaders into challenges to get preferred enemy.

 

Also, true i6 would go before i1 - i5 but the build in question would only go simultaneously. Which makes a difference when you're fighting other opponents using fists, or other hard hitting ap2 weapons. The wolf claw might be an option but s6 rending is significantly less dangerous against many foes than s10 ap2.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

CoF is an awesome book.  Good read and great mix of rules.  Only downside is the Sagaborn rule.  Ask any CSM how much they like this rule (dif name) in their book.  Certainly, there are ways to work around it.  And you may be issuing and accepting challenges anyways.

[skeletoro]

Depending on the unit you're fielding, pack leaders seem to be pretty good in challenges.

 

My TWC pack leader took out a legion cataphractii sergeant and the spill over wounds then IDed the legion praetor warlord hiding behind him. Note that the praetor failed to score any wounds against the 3++ models the wounds he caused with his paragon blade were allocated to; if the praetor had accepted the challenge and struck at the pack leader, the outcome would have been the same.

 

And all the while he gave preferred enemy to the pack.

[Frater Cornelius]

That is definitely a nice build. If only the effective I6 (not 5) applied outside challenges. I find myself putting my pack leaders into challenges to get preferred enemy.

 

Also, true i6 would go before i1 - i5 but the build in question would only go simultaneously. Which makes a difference when you're fighting other opponents using fists, or other hard hitting ap2 weapons. The wolf claw might be an option but s6 rending is significantly less dangerous against many foes than s10 ap2.

 

S6 Rending on I5 is important if you want to make casualties faster than the enemy. Also, against T5 with 1 wound, MEQ and worse S6 AP3 Shred is more wounds than S10 AP2 no re-roll to wound. T5 with several wounds or higher T, then the Fist will b used. Against TEQ with S8 weapons I also use the Claw to get some of those out of the game before they strike.

And the PE in challenges is only PE (Characters) so most of the time the unit does not get any benefit from it, so might as well put the Lord in and get it over with.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

 

That is definitely a nice build. If only the effective I6 (not 5) applied outside challenges. I find myself putting my pack leaders into challenges to get preferred enemy.

 

Also, true i6 would go before i1 - i5 but the build in question would only go simultaneously. Which makes a difference when you're fighting other opponents using fists, or other hard hitting ap2 weapons. The wolf claw might be an option but s6 rending is significantly less dangerous against many foes than s10 ap2.

 

S6 Rending on I5 is important if you want to make casualties faster than the enemy. Also, against T5 with 1 wound, MEQ and worse S6 AP3 Shred is more wounds than S10 AP2 no re-roll to wound. T5 with several wounds or higher T, then the Fist will b used. Against TEQ with S8 weapons I also use the Claw to get some of those out of the game before they strike.

And the PE in challenges is only PE (Characters) so most of the time the unit does not get any benefit from it, so might as well put the Lord in and get it over with.

 

Immersturm beat me to it.

[Z00Z]

 

 

That is definitely a nice build. If only the effective I6 (not 5) applied outside challenges. I find myself putting my pack leaders into challenges to get preferred enemy.

 

Also, true i6 would go before i1 - i5 but the build in question would only go simultaneously. Which makes a difference when you're fighting other opponents using fists, or other hard hitting ap2 weapons. The wolf claw might be an option but s6 rending is significantly less dangerous against many foes than s10 ap2.

 

S6 Rending on I5 is important if you want to make casualties faster than the enemy. Also, against T5 with 1 wound, MEQ and worse S6 AP3 Shred is more wounds than S10 AP2 no re-roll to wound. T5 with several wounds or higher T, then the Fist will b used. Against TEQ with S8 weapons I also use the Claw to get some of those out of the game before they strike.

And the PE in challenges is only PE (Characters) so most of the time the unit does not get any benefit from it, so might as well put the Lord in and get it over with.

 

Immersturm beat me to it.

 

 

This is mathematically simply not the case, and I really wish people would stop using mathhammer for their statistics. It simply is wrong the way its done as we not dealing with proportions but probabilities

 

The probability of wounds follows the following table on a 6 wound pool vs MEQ or worse. 

 

no. of wounds S6 AP3 Rend S10 AP2 1 98% 100% 2 89% 98% 3 66% 90% 4 34% 68% 5 11% 35% 6 2% 9%

 

Thereafter, a separate pool is created for the re-rolls. This is not additive, these are completely separate events and inverse of wounds achieved using S6 AP3 Shred. 

 

As an example, based on a second pool of dice qty 4. 

 

1 94% 2 69% 3 31% 4 6%

 

With certainty, or probability, when making certainty statements or coming to conclusions, you will want to work on at least 90%+. Meaning, for every 100 games you play, at least 90% will follow these probabilities guaranteed.  When pre-planning a units performance and build, its up to you to determine with what certainty you know to what percentage outcome. In the example above, S10 AP2, at least, performs as well as STR 6 AP3 Shred in the number of wounds created.