Dark Angels 30K Relic Revealed

[shabbadoo]

No, we are not. I'll assume that you are simply ignorant that the relic in question is apparently a "scawy box " DA version of the Ark of the Covenant, and doesn't have anything to do with "tactical acumen" or anything other than being scary. And I think everyone here is clever enough to interpret rules as being able to represent some less obvious effect. There are plenty of rules which can represent what you describe, they being Counter-Attack, Hatred, Precision Strikes, Preferred Enemy, Rampage, Shred, Zealot, etc., and they are not countered by Fearless (as it would be rather moronic to have Fearless counteract "tactical acumen", don't you think?). You know, rules that actually work all of the time for the DA. But no, none of these proactive special rules could possibly be retasked to represent the enemy being shocked into some form of inaction or being caught off guard, such that the DA unit would gain some sort of outright benefit not based on a snowball's chance in hell of it actually happening (or not happening at all). Instead, the DA are required to rush in, open the "scawy box", and hope that the enemy fails a Ld test that it will rarely fail, meaning this relic will rarely work at all.

Also, there are plenty of other ways to represent "tactical acumen" in tthe game. The rules you claim do not exist are staring you in the face every time you look at various Warlord Traits charts in particular, but there are also the above rules I mentioned, plus Scout, Outflank, and Hit And Run to hold up as examples of things which are much better suited to representing "tactical acumen". Wouldn't it be nice to instead have a rule that simply worked, like "Enemy units within 12" of the Pyrix Extasis are -1 BS/WS, and cannot fire Overwtach." You have to get in the enemy's face for it to even matter, which I get the impression was part of the point of this relic, and its rules wouldn't castrate its effectiveness. What do I know though.

[Bryan Blaire]

So it's a relic that magically increases tactical acumen? ... How? And if they wanted to represent Tactical Acumen with a rule, you can be sure they could have created one. They created rules for "Crusader", "Hatred" and "Zealot". Those are all mental states that also don't necessarily have to have rules, but could have been just been left up to the player to play out themselves. Heck, the "Supporting Fire" rule would have been a great one to show some exceptional tactical fighting skill (ie, the DA position their guys so well, they can provide Overwatch fire even if they aren't the target of an attack).

 

Also, it's hard not to assume that Fear actually means "fear" when the description of the USR specifically says "Some beings are so monstrous or alien that they can force their foes to recoil in horror."

 

Now, maybe the relic itself is absolutely terrifying, that's fine. Terrifying enough to mess with other Astartes, okay, it probably has some Warp-based power to play with their mind some. But that still hasn't been shown to be the 30K DA bailiwick, that's part of the 40K DA version.

 

It's sad that we all have to be clever enough to realize that what we have to go off of is the descriptions written for the rules as to what they represent, rather than other things we come up with.

 

;)

 

Edit: :ph34r: Dangit Shabbadoo!

[Interrogator Stobz]

VH Brother, I think they disagree with you :P

[Cactus]

Pyrix Extasis - A small but weighty casket manufactured at the very close of the Dark Age of Technology, it is held by some that the Pyrix Extasis was meant as a super-wepon for holding at bay the oncoming horrors of the Age of Strife. The Pyrix contains a psycho-disruptive resonator that acts upon the most primal regions of a victim's brain to induce feelings of utter dread and in their mind transform the bearer into a figure from nightmare.

[Master Avoghai]

You guys seem to be confusing being scary with the fear rule mechanic.

You are right that DA are not more scary than others.

The DA are known for tactical acumen, but there isn't a clear way to show that in game. There isn't a good way rules wise to make a poor player a tactical genius.

It isn't like they can write down a list of good traps to lay and expect our opponents to always fall for them.

That being said, the penalty imposed by the fear USR could also be used to show our troops catching an opponent off guard.

It is just a shame that they didn't create a rule that shows that tactical acumen more consistently, but maybe that should be something we bring to the game.

It saddens me that not one of you was clever enough to see that.

They did few years ago.

 

It was called Pete Haines rules. They took the BT and the IW and created lists that even a cephalopod could win with... :P

[shabbadoo]

Hey, don't you be talking bad about Tyranids.  They may have hard shells, but they have soft insides.

[ValourousHeart]

It saddens me that not one of you was clever enough to see that.

Perhaps I should have left that part off... I seem to have gotten some peoples briefs in a twist... and maybe I shouldn't have said that either.

No, we are not. I'll assume that you are simply ignorant that the relic in question is apparently a "scawy box " DA version of the Ark of the Covenant, and doesn't have anything to do with "tactical acumen" or anything other than being scary. And I think everyone here is clever enough to interpret rules as being able to represent some less obvious effect. There are plenty of rules which can represent what you describe, they being Counter-Attack, Hatred, Precision Strikes, Preferred Enemy, Rampage, Shred, Zealot, etc., and they are not countered by Fearless (as it would be rather moronic to have Fearless counteract "tactical acumen", don't you think?). You know, rules that actually work all of the time for the DA. But no, none of these proactive special rules could possibly be retasked to represent the enemy being shocked into some form of inaction or being caught off guard, such that the DA unit would gain some sort of outright benefit not based on a snowball's chance in hell of it actually happening (or not happening at all). Instead, the DA are required to rush in, open the "scawy box", and hope that the enemy fails a Ld test that it will rarely fail, meaning this relic will rarely work at all.

Also, there are plenty of other ways to represent "tactical acumen" in tthe game. The rules you claim do not exist are staring you in the face every time you look at various Warlord Traits charts in particular, but there are also the above rules I mentioned, plus Scout, Outflank, and Hit And Run to hold up as examples of things which are much better suited to representing "tactical acumen". Wouldn't it be nice to instead have a rule that simply worked, like "Enemy units within 12" of the Pyrix Extasis are -1 BS/WS, and cannot fire Overwtach." You have to get in the enemy's face for it to even matter, which I get the impression was part of the point of this relic, and its rules wouldn't castrate its effectiveness. What do I know though.

First off let me remind you that I never said I liked the rules for this relic. My comments were directed specifically at those individuals that brought up that fear is more of a NL rule and not DA.

But since you offered some solutions lets address that and figure out something that could work as a good representation of a DA relic. From the novels and other fluff sources, we know that Johnson was a tactical genius. The best examples we have show him taking a preemptive action that is decisive enough to eliminate the problem before it becomes a threat.

The next question is do we want this relic to represent Johnson's tactical genius? FW didn't want it to represent that... but we can do something different.

I think that the rule should give DA a CHANCE to taking a decisive action early on that cripples the opponents ability to effectively respond later. Please note that I don't think this should be guaranteed... it is one thing to know that your main force of DW is coming in on turn 1 or 2 (you decide) it is another to know that your opponent is going to lose on turn 2, because I am going to hit the "I win" button.

None of the rules you suggested except for precision strikes/shots really does that very well and most all of them only happen in CC

So it's a relic that magically increases tactical acumen? ... How? And if they wanted to represent Tactical Acumen with a rule, you can be sure they could have created one. They created rules for "Crusader", "Hatred" and "Zealot". Those are all mental states that also don't necessarily have to have rules, but could have been just been left up to the player to play out themselves. Heck, the "Supporting Fire" rule would have been a great one to show some exceptional tactical fighting skill (ie, the DA position their guys so well, they can provide Overwatch fire even if they aren't the target of an attack).

Also, it's hard not to assume that Fear actually means "fear" when the description of the USR specifically says "Some beings are so monstrous or alien that they can force their foes to recoil in horror."

Now, maybe the relic itself is absolutely terrifying, that's fine. Terrifying enough to mess with other Astartes, okay, it probably has some Warp-based power to play with their mind some. But that still hasn't been shown to be the 30K DA bailiwick, that's part of the 40K DA version.

It's sad that we all have to be clever enough to realize that what we have to go off of is the descriptions written for the rules as to what they represent, rather than other things we come up with.

Edit: Dangit Shabbadoo!

No this relic represent a fear causing device. I never said that fear can't represent fear... I just said that the fear mechanic could also represent any other situation where you wanted a chance that opponent's effectiveness was reduced.

VH Brother, I think they disagree with you

Yeah... I sure know how to stir the pot don't I.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

It saddens me that not one of you was clever enough to see that.

It saddens me that you used such that a strong strong statement as "not being clever enough" to emphasis your point.

I think I will sadden you further by saying that the DA and NL relics are downright switched!!!! NL could used a fear causing relic that goes for their theme and DA could have a something akin to a beast or moster catcher harkening back to the Order days on Caliban which would fit in so nicely.

[Phoebus]

Consider me not at all surprised.  This relic seems to have been designed with the same mentality as the absolutely ridiculous "porta-rack".

[HaSY]

The First Legion causes fear that even Astartes know, unlike Night Lords. Night Lords are just amateur, First Legion have more way terrifying methods thanks to their experience.

I have mixed feelings about the relic, it's cool from fluff point but the rules could have been better; it will not cause only fear but also reduce WS, BS and Initiave for instance to be emphasized the transhuman dread.

Before the relics come out, I actually speculated DA to at least get

Mantle like Imperial Fist - Sammael's Adamantium Mantle

Night Lord's Mancatcher - Really suits Knights of Caliban in hunting monsters

Blood Angel's Photonic blade- We deserve a cool relic blade

Death Guard's rad grenade = Because Dreadwing

Thousand sons = Neural Shredder compliments DA

Sons of Horus armor= thought we can have cool cataphractii terminator armor with adamantium robe and energy shield

Word Bearer's stuff in reducing invulnerable save also good for DA to do area denial for wipeout

Salamanders' cool shield since we have a variety of relic shield system, our shield is so good that we get to keep part of rock of Caliban


Please dont treat us like how GW did. 

[depthcharge12]

So people looked at me funny because as of right now I believe I'm the only DA 30k player at the moment on this forum (correct me if I'm wrong) and one of 2 constant 1st legion posters on heresy30k and I :cuss ed up a storm about how dumb this relic sounds.

 

Now I'm sorry if we got this due to my bad luck (I started off with World Eaters and they have the crappiest rules as a result I believe) but hopefully the legion rules farther out will be better :D

 

Even the Ark of the Covenant thing is out of place and just hooky. If they really have to go in depth and justify the dang thing, then it really shouldn't belong. I love FW and Alan Bligh, but I'm going to have to get out of my fanboi mindset and yell from the top of my lungs: "THA HELL WERE YOU GUYS THINKING?!"

 

 

For those interested, I made some fan rules for the first legion that I've been play testing against Athrawes 2nd Legion:

 

 

"Weapons of a Bygone Age"

Many weapons in the possession of the Dark Angels come from their founding as the first legion. Their armories are rich with hand crafted relics made lovingly by individual tech priests rather than the mass produced bolters of the mid and latter crusade. Volkites may reroll to wound for deflagrate and plasma weapons may reroll 1's on to hit rolls. However, due to the ancient and unstable nature of the plasma weapons, rerolls that roll a 1 again automatically cause the wielder to take a wound without any armor or cover saves (invulnerables still allowed).

 

"Knightly Code"

The tenacity of the first legion to uphold their honor is legendary. All units with the rule "Dark Angels Legion" gain stubborn but characters must issue and accept challenges whenever possible in combat.

[Tanyr]

I've been building an HH 1st legion army slowly, but surely! Waiting on the infantry goodies before i take a deeper plunge, but a cataphractii focused pride of the legion list with heavy armor support is sitting forlorn in lil FW baggies. As for other conquest news, while 1st legion presence in the book is small, I did love our relationship with House Orhlacc. Seems like a helluva strong ally for Caliban.

 

As for the relic, like many, I'm not fond of it. It's a moot point though, since until we get our own list I wouldn't be kitting out any character's beyond bare bones to begin with. It's too risky to me to put so many points into something that could easily be one shot. While it's far from evidence, the relics effect does seem to imply ( to me at least ) that we'll have more of a dedicated assault element than present. Which is rather nice, since logic be damned, biologically enhanced, power armor bedecked super soldiers with the most technologically advanced weapons of the future running at the enemy with swords makes me smile!

[shabbadoo]

So people looked at me funny because as of right now I believe I'm the only DA 30k player at the moment on this forum (correct me if I'm wrong) and one of 2 constant 1st legion posters on heresy30k and I ed up a storm about how dumb this relic sounds.

Now I'm sorry if we got this due to my bad luck (I started off with World Eaters and they have the crappiest rules as a result I believe) but hopefully the legion rules farther out will be better

I wouldn't bet on it. Not even the combined psychic power, latent and otherwise, of the entire Unforgiven brethren can counteract the dark machinations of those who put pen to paper when it comes to most Dark Angels material. You are blameless in this, but please report to cell 42 for thinking that you should report to cell 42.

[depthcharge12]

 

So people looked at me funny because as of right now I believe I'm the only DA 30k player at the moment on this forum (correct me if I'm wrong) and one of 2 constant 1st legion posters on heresy30k and I :cuss ed up a storm about how dumb this relic sounds.

Now I'm sorry if we got this due to my bad luck (I started off with World Eaters and they have the crappiest rules as a result I believe) but hopefully the legion rules farther out will be better :D

 

I wouldn't bet on it.  Not even the combined psychic power, latent and otherwise, of the entire Unforgiven brethren can counteract the dark machinations of those who put pen to paper when it comes to most Dark Angels material.  You are blameless in this, but please report to cell 42 for thinking that you should report to cell 42. :D

Isn't that a Catch 22? :P

 

Here's some shameless plugging of some 1st legion I've done:

 

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/treacyjohn2/7cd6ee2610c7bd0a193c4bf153050649_zps5d6a90b7.jpg

 

And then my praetor who I won't be adding this relic to :D

 

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/treacyjohn2/b372c78237a84d5b8df9c12757d8c9d4_zpsc895a720.jpg

 

 

...I still need to add MOAR robes