Changes to Chaos Marines #2: Fixing Dud Units

[Caustic63]

This post will be perhaps the most divisive, so I'll try my best to explain why I think these changes are the best thing for the Codex.

 

Changes to the Standard Codex:

 

Additions to the Armory (Special Issue Wargear):

 

- Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorcerers with a Mark of Slaanesh can take a Doom Siren for the same price as a Noise Marine Champion

- Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorcerers with a Mark of Tzeentch can take Inferno Bolts for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, and Combi-Bolters for twice the cost of Meltabombs

 

Updates to the Icons:

 

- Icon of Despair: In addition to the standard benefits, enemy units within 6" of the Icon have -1 to their Leadership.

- Icon of Flame: In addition to the standard benefits, enemy units targeted by ranged weapons from this squad have -1 to their Cover Saves.

- Points costs of the two above Icons would be adjusted accordingly.

 

Updates to Units:

 

- Lucius the Eternal: Exchange Armour of Shrieking Souls rule for Aura of Dark Glory and add the following new rule:

Eternal Slaughterer: If Lucius is killed in close combat, roll a dice. On a 3+ he gives up no Victory Points to your opponent (for Warlord or otherwise)

- Lucius the Eternal: Gains the Exalted Champion Warlord Trait

- Lucius the Eternal: Lash of Torment is a Close Combat Weapon that reduces your opponents attacks by -1 (to a minimum of 1)

- Lucius the Eternal: Blade of the Laer is a Power Sword with AP2 and Shred.

 

- Possessed Marines gain +1 WS and are Beasts (the Crimson Slaughter book would be FAQed to something more fighty)

- Mutilators gain +1 WS and can take Chaos Land Raiders as dedicated transports

- Chosen have the following new rule:

Champions of the Long War: At the start of the battle, the unit of Chosen gains one of the following SRs: Tank Hunters, Infiltrate or Furious Charge.

- Chaos Land Raider gains two new variants:

Chaos Land Raider Infernus: Transport Capacity is 12. Has two Sponson mounted Inferno Cannons. -10 points.

Chaos Land Raider Diabolous: Transport Capacity is 12. Has two Sponson mounted Reaper Autocannon Batteries.

 

- Up to two Khorne Berzekers can replace their Close Combat Weapon with a Power Weapon or a Power Fist for the standard costs.

- Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer has a 15 point cost reduction.

 

Updates to Psychic Powers:

 

- Tzeentch's Firestorm has its AP improved to AP3.

- Boon of Mutation is replaced with Reckoning of Tzeentch, a WC2 Blessing that grants the Psyker and his squad's weapons the Fleshbane and Armourbane special rules.

- Breath of Chaos is WC1.

 

- All Sorcerers with a Mark of Chaos and Daemon Princes gain +1 to manifest Warp Charges when casting powers from the school of their patron god.

 

 

I know its a lot of changes but let me know what you think! I'm open to changes if they make sense.

[King Jackal]

You have some cool ideas.

 

 

 

Updates to Units:

 

- Lucius the Eternal: Exchange Armour of Shrieking Souls rule for Aura of Dark Glory and add the following new rule:

Eternal Slaughterer: If Lucius is killed in close combat, roll a dice. On a 3+ he gives up no Victory Points to your opponent (for Warlord or otherwise)

 

 

Add to this: on a 6, the model that kills Lucius in a challenge is replaced by Lucius and reverts back to the Chaos players control.

 

 

 

- Possessed Marines gain +1 WS and are Beasts (the Crimson Slaughter book would be FAQed to something more fighty)

 

I'd really like to see a return to stable Possessed with purchasable upgrades, I think Tzeentch random Possessed makes some sense but I just don't get constantly changing Possessed otherwise.

-Wings (Jump pack)

-Beasts

-Monstrous Creatures

-Shred etc.

 

I would love to have possessed that fully upgraded can be one of the most expensive infantry squads in the game.

 

Failing this I want an option or a roll for ranged attacks on these guys, short range small blast, torrent flamers - just something.

Finally, another great thing for them would be to have the Daemonic Instability rule so you can throw a Herald in there - bridges the 2 books

 

Say:

 

Daemon of Tzeentch (Possessed): same stuff + counts as Brotherhood of Psychers (with the same rules for Horrors in regards to numbers to Mastery Levels) knows flickering fire

Daemon of Slaanesh (Possessed): same stuff + initiative drop like Fiends

etc

 

Majorly speaking, the marks really need to be looked at and redesigned for different units I think.

 

Daemon of Khorne Obliterators: Fire Frenzy - May fire twice in the shooting phase if x requirement is met

Daemon of Slaanesh Obliterators: Replace SnP with Relentless, replace Missile Launcher and twin linked flamer with Blast Master and twin linked Doom Siren respectively

etc

 

 

- All Sorcerers with a Mark of Chaos and Daemon Princes gain +1 to manifest Warp Charges when casting powers from the school of their patron god.

 

 

Completely agree with this

[brother_contagion]

This post will be perhaps the most divisive, so I'll try my best to explain why I think these changes are the best thing for the Codex.

 

Changes to the Standard Codex:

 

Additions to the Armory (Special Issue Wargear):

 

- Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorcerers with a Mark of Slaanesh can take a Doom Siren for the same price as a Noise Marine Champion

- Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorcerers with a Mark of Tzeentch can take Inferno Bolts for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, and Combi-Bolters for twice the cost of Meltabombs

 

-Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorcerers with a Mark of Nurgle can take Plague Bolts (+4 Poison) for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, and Combi-Bolters for +5pts or replace their Chainsword with a Plague Knife +10pts.

-Chaos Lords with a Mark of Khorne can take a Collar of Khorne (Adamantium Will) for +15pts

 

Also, I'd give Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles the same options that the Chaos Lords and Sorcerers have. Not letting them take bikes, jump packs or demonic steeds is weird and very limiting. Maybe make the Dark Apostle's Power Maul a Dark Crozius, making a Master Crafted Weapon. And give the Warpsmith the ability to take Chaos Servitors with the option to take up to 2 Heavy Bolters or Ectoplasma Cannons.

 

 

Add to this: on a 6, the model that kills Lucius in a challenge is replaced by Lucius and reverts back to the Chaos players control.

 

He should at least come back with 1 wound instead of all 3, otherwise that's too much and, even though he'd be the only unit, that's falling into Necron territory (I say this because would want it to be a unique Chaos thing instead of a copy). It is fluffy though, but I'd still say only 1 wound, because you are removing the (potentially healthy) enemy character from play, which is a very powerful ability even though it's only on a roll of a 6.

 

 

Updates to Units:

 

- Possessed Marines gain +1 WS and are Beasts (the Crimson Slaughter book would be FAQed to something more fighty)

- Mutilators gain +1 WS and can take Chaos Land Raiders as dedicated transports

- Chosen have the following new rule:

Champions of the Long War: At the start of the battle, the unit of Chosen gains one of the following SRs: Tank Hunters, Infiltrate or Furious Charge.

- Chaos Land Raider gains two new variants:

Chaos Land Raider Infernus: Transport Capacity is 12. Has two Sponson mounted Inferno Cannons. -10 points.

Chaos Land Raider Diabolous: Transport Capacity is 12. Has two Sponson mounted Reaper Autocannon Batteries.

 

- Up to two Khorne Berzekers can replace their Close Combat Weapon with a Power Weapon or a Power Fist for the standard costs.

- Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer has a 15 point cost reduction.

 

I agree, Possessed, Mutilators and Chosen all need some better rules.

The +1WS with Mutilators and Possessed makes sense.

I think Possessed should also have the option of Bolt Pistols and Frag/Krak Grenades.

Mutilators and Obliterators should be able to have up to 5 in a unit, that way they could be more effective units than being stuck with a 3 cap.

 

I like your Land Raider variants. I'd give the Infernus pattern the option to replace it's twin-linked heavy bolter with a twin-linked heavy flamer.

 

 

Updates to Psychic Powers:

 

- All Sorcerers with a Mark of Chaos and Daemon Princes gain +1 to manifest Warp Charges when casting powers from the school of their patron god.

 

I'd say this would be a good rule if we are continually forced to have Marked Sorcerers choose from their patron's discipline, it may not give us a reason to take patron only Sorcerers but it gives us a benefit to the draw back. However, I'd rather see the compulsory patron discipline rule go away. Our Codex: Demon brothers don't have to choose it AND THEY'RE FREAKIN MANIFESTATIONS OF OUR GODS! So, even though this is a sold rule change, I'd rather have the patron disciplines changed to optional, it really would make a world of difference.

[Carrack]

How about making mark of Tzentch giving + 1 to invul or cover saves. Models with an ++ and actually benefit from the current mark would remain the same, but you would have a reason to put the mark on regular CSM or even cultist, which currently seems useless.

 

This could be represented with sorcerous protections or eldritch mists/ lights etc...

 

The drawback would be it might be easily abused with psychic powers that grant shrouded or fortifications that grant cover saves. Would this make the MOT too powerful? Maybe cap the cover save the at 3. Hmmm

[totgeboren]

I like most of the suggestions, but even though it sometimes feels like it, we do not have a codex of only dud units.

 

For example, I think Mark of Nurgle should be toned down a bit, to be on par with the other marks. My suggestion would be that the MoN should be FnP. PMs could still get T5 on top of that, but units like Oblits and Spawn with MoN should only get FnP. Drop it in points so that it's on par with the other marks. I mean, when it comes to giving marks to Oblits or Spawn, you have 'cheap=no mark', 'really good upgrade=MoN', 'three pointless fluff options for people who are into that sort of thing = MoS, MoK, MoT'.

 

The divide in usefulness between the MoN and the other marks is just silly. The other marks are minor buffs that only helps you out in very special occasions, and so if MoN was FnP it would still be kinda overpowered, but not as bad as it is now.

 

Also, Icon of Excess should be brought back into something a bit less powerful. Maybe it could mirror the Fiends of Slaanesh's Soporific Musk ability to drop I to 1 for any unit assaulted by a unit carrying an Icon of Excess? Something like that.

 

And one other thing that needs to be changed. I'll say it. You will hate me. Sorcerers Familiar. It needs to be one use only, or at the very most 'use once per turn'. It's simply way too good for almost no points.

 

Other than that, I can't really think of any good CSM things that needs to be nerfed.

[King Jackal]

@brother contagion

 

What about a kind of Deny the Witch save on the character being replaced with Lucius.

Every wound is +1 to the result, ie. 1 wound left nullified on a 6, 2 wounds 5+ etc

 

Still we are talking about Lucius the Eternal who doesn't see any where near as much gameplay as he should.

 

Do you mind if we expand on this Caustic?

 

What would you guys do with Fabius Bile?

[Shuggnuggath]

A Lucius transmogrification test might make more sense as a leadership check.

[Iron Skull Mask]

I don't know, the changes I would make first are

 

Kick out champion of chaos rule.

Make the random table into buyable bonuses (at least some of them).

 

-2 pts on csm

-10 pts on the Icon of vengeance

+1 LP on the Warpsmith

 

+ Eternal Warrior on Daemon Princes

+ Allow non-dedicated Daemon Princes

+ Change dedications to marks and change the effects into the Mark bonus of the respective God.

 

+ Drop Pods

 

+ Teleport homers

 

+ Infiltration on Chosen

 

+ Veteran Skills

+ Legion Rules

[Beachymike123]

I don't know, the changes I would make first are

 

Kick out champion of chaos rule.

Make the random table into buyable bonuses (at least some of them).

 

-2 pts on csm

-10 pts on the Icon of vengeance

+1 LP on the Warpsmith

 

+ Eternal Warrior on Daemon Princes

+ Allow non-dedicated Daemon Princes

+ Change dedications to marks and change the effects into the Mark bonus of the respective God.

 

+ Drop Pods

 

+ Teleport homers

 

+ Infiltration on Chosen

 

+ Veteran Skills

+ Legion Rules

 

Agree with all of the above. I'd say the Veteran Skills is the key thing that made me really enjoy the 3.5 dex, and its a great way to distinguish each unit and make it individual. Each Legion also had a specific way of warfare and these can be incorporated into giving them Veteran Skills associated with it (eg - IW = Tank Hunters, AL = infiltrate, NL = fear etc) for a discount or free depending on the skill. These above all else would make me a happy bunny. 

[Goreshed]

Gah where to start...

 

Retinues...make it chosen that can do this like it was in the old days...

 

Marked termies...

 

I'd love to see more variation on the land raider even if it was say one entry but you could change the weapons and in turn also change out the troop capacity depending on what weapons you gave it. Would make it seem more...chaos in the fact that it's not its own entry for each variation but instead representing a land raider that has changed with the warband/legion as the years have gone on.

 

Marked vehicles were always fluffy and fun to play with.

 

I had been toying with an idea of how to get around the whole lack of drop pod thing and had come up with something simple but gets the job done. It would be similar to the drop pod that we know in how it gets there however when it unfolds it is some hellish looking ritual circle where units can then appear onto it from reserve. No need to have dedicated transport and would allow the chaos player to choose which pod they come out of.

 

Flavored rules for the traitor legions/warband. These don't have to be crazy and don't even have to be legion specific but something for the flavor of siege/assault/sneaky/footslog that sort of thing. Similar to what they have done for the chapter traits a while back for SM.

[Caustic63]

@brother contagion

 

What about a kind of Deny the Witch save on the character being replaced with Lucius.

Every wound is +1 to the result, ie. 1 wound left nullified on a 6, 2 wounds 5+ etc

 

Still we are talking about Lucius the Eternal who doesn't see any where near as much gameplay as he should.

 

Do you mind if we expand on this Caustic?

 

What would you guys do with Fabius Bile?

 

Sure. Remember though that this is 7th edition, and that as much as we want it to 3.5 is not coming back. I just wanted to propose some reasonable adjustments to the current codex to bring it more into line to where it should be, not to give ALL CHAOZ AP2 BOLTERZ (in otherwords, not get over the top)

[brother_contagion]

 

@brother contagion

 

What about a kind of Deny the Witch save on the character being replaced with Lucius.

Every wound is +1 to the result, ie. 1 wound left nullified on a 6, 2 wounds 5+ etc

 

Still we are talking about Lucius the Eternal who doesn't see any where near as much gameplay as he should.

 

Do you mind if we expand on this Caustic?

 

What would you guys do with Fabius Bile?

 

Sure. Remember though that this is 7th edition, and that as much as we want it to 3.5 is not coming back. I just wanted to propose some reasonable adjustments to the current codex to bring it more into line to where it should be, not to give ALL CHAOZ AP2 BOLTERZ (in otherwords, not get over the top)

 

 

What you've suggested and what's been said on here, so far, hasn't been "GIVE ALL CHAOZ AP2 BOLTERZ", it's been quite moderate. Though you seem to favor Slaanesh more than the other 3 (based on your other post, but Tzeentch seems to be up there too), cause I don't really see what's wrong with Lucius (though I wouldn't be against your proposal). I mean, yeah that would make him beefier, but he seems like a solid HQ as is, though not as solid as Khârn, but Khârn is Khârn.

 

Unless you're trying to balance the power of the other gods to Nurgle or just rounding them off to balance each other out. I don't necessarily think that is the problem though, it's the amount of options/customization that's missing. I mean, you don't gotta give us Drop Pods, but a Teleport Homer (or Personal Icon) wouldn't exactly be game breaking.

[Excessus]

Haha, maybe tone down a few things and look how they go together. This OP together with the #1 OP makes the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers ridiculous in close combat...

 

4 attacks on the charge, 4++, Ap2(axe) and fleshbane/armourbane, rerolling 1s, force. Now that's a nasty opponent for 43 points... :D

[King Jackal]

Haha, maybe tone down a few things and look how they go together. This OP together with the #1 OP makes the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers ridiculous in close combat...

 

4 attacks on the charge, 4++, Ap2(axe) and fleshbane/armourbane, rerolling 1s, force. Now that's a nasty opponent for 43 points... :D

43 points that can quite easily Perils himself off the table with that 2 warp charge power, re rolling a single 1, that will probably be killed before he swings.

 

 

@brother contagion

What about a kind of Deny the Witch save on the character being replaced with Lucius.

Every wound is +1 to the result, ie. 1 wound left nullified on a 6, 2 wounds 5+ etc

Still we are talking about Lucius the Eternal who doesn't see any where near as much gameplay as he should.

Do you mind if we expand on this Caustic?

What would you guys do with Fabius Bile?

 

 

Sure. Remember though that this is 7th edition, and that as much as we want it to 3.5 is not coming back. I just wanted to propose some reasonable adjustments to the current codex to bring it more into line to where it should be, not to give ALL CHAOZ AP2 BOLTERZ (in otherwords, not get over the top)

? I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.... To brainstorm on a forum about what community members would do with "dud choices" is hardly trying to resurface 3.5

 

My suggestion on Lucius is exactly what his gimmick should be, not necessarily how I've outlined the rules but above all else he should be: prideful, exceptional at duelling and when he dies should have a chance at re spawning within his killer. I'm not sure if anything in this topic is OP, but who cares if it is? It's good to debate, spitball ideas and get imaginative. It's not like what we write here will get picked up by the future C:CSM author....

[Caustic63]

Haha, maybe tone down a few things and look how they go together. This OP together with the #1 OP makes the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers ridiculous in close combat...

4 attacks on the charge, 4++, Ap2(axe) and fleshbane/armourbane, rerolling 1s, force. Now that's a nasty opponent for 43 points...

43 points that can quite easily Perils himself off the table with that 2 warp charge power, re rolling a single 1, that will probably be killed before he swings.

@brother contagion

What about a kind of Deny the Witch save on the character being replaced with Lucius.

Every wound is +1 to the result, ie. 1 wound left nullified on a 6, 2 wounds 5+ etc

Still we are talking about Lucius the Eternal who doesn't see any where near as much gameplay as he should.

Do you mind if we expand on this Caustic?

What would you guys do with Fabius Bile?

Sure. Remember though that this is 7th edition, and that as much as we want it to 3.5 is not coming back. I just wanted to propose some reasonable adjustments to the current codex to bring it more into line to where it should be, not to give ALL CHAOZ AP2 BOLTERZ (in otherwords, not get over the top)

? I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.... To brainstorm on a forum about what community members would do with "dud choices" is hardly trying to resurface 3.5

My suggestion on Lucius is exactly what his gimmick should be, not necessarily how I've outlined the rules but above all else he should be: prideful, exceptional at duelling and when he dies should have a chance at re spawning within his killer. I'm not sure if anything in this topic is OP, but who cares if it is? It's good to debate, spitball ideas and get imaginative. It's not like what we write here will get picked up by the future C:CSM author....

My statement wasn't directed at you, more so a general statement to the rest of the members posting here. I should've split them up and been more clear about that.

[Caustic63]

Haha, maybe tone down a few things and look how they go together. This OP together with the #1 OP makes the lowly Aspiring Sorcerers ridiculous in close combat...

4 attacks on the charge, 4++, Ap2(axe) and fleshbane/armourbane, rerolling 1s, force. Now that's a nasty opponent for 43 points...

Admittedly I didn't put as much thought into the Psychic Powers as the rest of the post, but the above Sorcerer would need to get off the WC2 power before this could happen, and he would also be vulnerable to being killed before striking. Should it also not be a trait of Chaos to be fairly powerful in challenges since they are forced into them?

He is also part of a unit that is expensive, and doesn't want to be in close combat so a bit of hitting power is unlikely to prove unbeatable.

[the jeske]

 

Should it also not be a trait of Chaos to be fairly powerful in challenges since they are forced into them?

yeah if geq was the standard stat line in w40k, it would[just like chaos champions are on par with other factions heros in WFB]. But it is not the case a 40+ +3sv dude even with a FW will just bite the dust too soon[and it is there for better to use him as a bullet catcher for other HQs and/or keep him super cheap].

 

 

The re working of marks would be interesting. if marks would work like "demon of" we would see a larger spread of marks being used, not just <MoN> everytime, all the time[for 3 editions back to back].

[Excessus]

That rule forcing challenges should be abolished and something else put in. Being forced to do something isn't fun...we should want to do it on our own!

 

...and what do you mean three editions jeske, I remember MoN and PMs being powerful as far back as 2nd ed and before...

[the jeske]

Mon sucked in 2ed. Wasn't worth it as most melee weapons were str8+ same with shoting. In 3ed, under the JJ dex it didn't matter what the chaos player took. Everything was bad . in 3.5 nurgle did ok, had a nice demon weapons, but meh demons and it was way off auto take. When 4th hit nurgle was the only options. 5th didn't change that. 6th didn't change that and it stays the same in 7th. So if going purely by numbers it could be 4editions, but as chaos was one of the last books in 4th and a supposed "new" edition codex I say it is 3.

[Excessus]

I'm dying to know what kind of insane armies you played with jeske, where most troops had S8+ shooting and melee weapons...

[Rasclomalum]

How about making mark of Tzentch giving + 1 to invul or cover saves. Models with an ++ and actually benefit from the current mark would remain the same, but you would have a reason to put the mark on regular CSM or even cultist, which currently seems useless.

 

This could be represented with sorcerous protections or eldritch mists/ lights etc...

 

The drawback would be it might be easily abused with psychic powers that grant shrouded or fortifications that grant cover saves. Would this make the MOT too powerful? Maybe cap the cover save the at 3. Hmmm

 

Or MoT could improve a nonexistent invulnerable save to a 5++, and otherwise work as it does now.

 

All models with the Character or Independent Character rule could also gain a Mastery Level. 

[the jeske]

I'm dying to know what kind of insane armies you played with jeske, where most troops had S8+ shooting and melee weapons...

Eldar. harli ignore T do 2d6 wounds per hit. TH ignore T stat. Demonic weapons str 7+. power fist str 9. shokka attack guns ignore T. pulsa rokkits ignore T. Plasma vets[good because 4 with plasma cost 99pts=which was worth 0 vp] str 7. battle cannons and barrages from IG[one extra battle cannon template shot pre game for each tank. with possible boosts of it with wargear]. AC str9 . Cyclons str9. Las str9 . Eldar exarchs with their range 36" d3 str9 las cannon shots[well 2xd3 everyone gave them the 2 shot exarch power] with a +2inv and flying. Combat drugs HQs[specialy those with gate or mounts like  chaos lords on fiends] with fists [the terminator prise of khorne one was the one given the demonic weapon].

Force weapons which could boost str[and give negative to saves] for burning force cards. I probably missed a lot of stuff.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

My suggestion on Lucius is exactly what his gimmick should be, not necessarily how I've outlined the rules but above all else he should be: prideful, exceptional at duelling and when he dies should have a chance at re spawning within his killer. I'm not sure if anything in this topic is OP, but who cares if it is? It's good to debate, spitball ideas and get imaginative. It's not like what we write here will get picked up by the future C:CSM author....

 

Have to disagree with Lucius replacing his killer. Not only because 'on a 6 your Abaddon is replaced with my Lucius' is kinda BS, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't work that way. From the codex "Whoever slays him...will find themselves transforming, slowly and painfully, into Lucius". So that should most definitely not be an in game ability.

 

- Lucius the Eternal: Blade of the Laer is a Power Sword with AP2 and Shred.

 

Have to disagree with this. While I don't like it, the variable AP power weapon phenomenon has made AP2 at initiative extremely rare. Initiative 6 AP2 Shred, for less than 200 points? No way.

[King Jackal]

 

My suggestion on Lucius is exactly what his gimmick should be, not necessarily how I've outlined the rules but above all else he should be: prideful, exceptional at duelling and when he dies should have a chance at re spawning within his killer. I'm not sure if anything in this topic is OP, but who cares if it is? It's good to debate, spitball ideas and get imaginative. It's not like what we write here will get picked up by the future C:CSM author....

 

Have to disagree with Lucius replacing his killer. Not only because 'on a 6 your Abaddon is replaced with my Lucius' is kinda BS, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't work that way. From the codex "Whoever slays him...will find themselves transforming, slowly and painfully, into Lucius". So that should most definitely not be an in game ability.

 

It could argued that the length of a battle could be taking place over (what we perceive as) days, weeks or months depending on points size, and to that end it could be argued from a Forge the Narrative point of view that Lucius' killer has been transforming 'slowly and painfully.' I tend to agree with you on the Abaddon front though, maybe something like, 'has no effect on models with Eternal Warrior'

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

My suggestion on Lucius is exactly what his gimmick should be, not necessarily how I've outlined the rules but above all else he should be: prideful, exceptional at duelling and when he dies should have a chance at re spawning within his killer. I'm not sure if anything in this topic is OP, but who cares if it is? It's good to debate, spitball ideas and get imaginative. It's not like what we write here will get picked up by the future C:CSM author....

Have to disagree with Lucius replacing his killer. Not only because 'on a 6 your Abaddon is replaced with my Lucius' is kinda BS, but from a fluff perspective, it doesn't work that way. From the codex "Whoever slays him...will find themselves transforming, slowly and painfully, into Lucius". So that should most definitely not be an in game ability.

 

It could argued that the length of a battle could be taking place over (what we perceive as) days, weeks or months depending on points size, and to that end it could be argued from a Forge the Narrative point of view that Lucius' killer has been transforming 'slowly and painfully.' I tend to agree with you on the Abaddon front though, maybe something like, 'has no effect on models with Eternal Warrior'

 

Thing is though, it's not just eternal warrior that becomes problematic. As the wobbly model syndrome webcomic had pointed out a couple if times, Lucius' ability is rather silly if actually examined. What if a tank kills him? What about a greater daemon? A C'Tan shard? Any Eldar (if Slaanesh can resurrect Lucius into them, it should be able to rip their soul out post haste)? The list of exceptions and clarifications you'd need isn't worht it. Better left off the table.

 

Also, I'd say that there's no way you can realistically claim that a single 40k battle takes place over any length of time longer than about a day, which is far too fast for a 'slow' transformation imo.