Various views on Machine Spirits (and one i made)

[Battybattybats]

How do you see Machine Spirits?

Superstitious explanation for basic machineries function?
Computer programs?
Limited A.I.?
Remnants of digitised organic consciousnesses?
Organic brain components wired into machinery?
Actual spirits?
Some combination of or all of the above?

I decided i would make a miniature of one, a guardian protecting an archaeotech hoard in Necromunda with nasty capacity to make weapons explode and attack cybernetics etc. And also to function as a 40k objective marker.

It's almost entirely a fantasy spirit host spirit (from the Mortarch kit) i just added the keys (from the mortis engine), I will give it industrial basing and am contemplating ways to paint it that might enhance the idea that it's a machine-spirit. I reasoned it's appearance worked as aspects represented symbolically to those noospherically able to see it, it's kill-code subroutine ability to attack and harm equipment taking the appearance of a knife and the access codes it holds being perceived as keys.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f250/supreme_martian_overlord/PICT0215.jpg

More pictures here (and back one page is pics of my Mechanicus Bookmark that Graham McNeil shared on twitter)

I'm not sure if i favour an actual soul for machine spirits or instead computer programs designed to respond to religious ritual to make them easily used without understanding. I'm quite interested in other views about what a machine spirit actually is and how anyone else would represent a machine spirit if they did.

[Teetengee]

When you factor in the warp and the various different ages of technological advancement and utilization within the Imperium, I imagine that machine spirits can be any or all of those things depending on the circumstances. I believe that most commonly they are either organocomputers or pure mysticism however.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Superstitious explanation for basic machineries function?

Computer programs?

Limited A.I.?

Remnants of digitised organic consciousnesses?

Organic brain components wired into machinery?

Actual spirits?

Some combination of or all of the above?

 

All but actual spirits, as only warp entities are spirits, and Machine Spirits are not (barring Dark Mechanicum heresy) warp entities, they're machines and thus wholly of the material plane. 

 

The Ad Mech use the term interchangeably to mean a bunch of things. The most common meaning is the automatic reactions of say a lasgun to being loaded (it hums with power spooling up into the capacitor). It's not actually a spirit or intelligence, its just the gun going through a process, but of course both the Ad Mech and the Guardsman who wields it are indoctrinated to believe it is. 

 

The next tier would be the semi-sentient intelligence found inside say a Land Raider. They're not true AI, but they are complex enough to take over driving or even fire weapons in reaction to their environment (ie even if the driver or gunner is dead/absent). They are probably the easiest to dominate, as they wish to be directed by a human intelligence, as that's how they are built to operate. 

 

The third tier would probably be battle-robots and the defensive spirits inside forge-shrines. The former are cybernetic constructs with a semi-organic brain, which allows them to act on their own to a certain degree (although again, they crave and function much better with direction from a master). The latter are wholly comprised of code and exist to defend Mechanicum computers and systems (the noosphere etc) from scrapcode, hacking and interference (whether from machines or from malicious intrusion by a human being or even alien). They can sometimes physically manifest by taking over gun turrets, or locking doors, activating laser fields etc, but they're ultimately just code. 

 

The final tier is the intelligences at the heart of Titans, Knight-Titans, Imperial spaceships and even some forge worlds/space stations. They're aggregation of both computers and automated processes, plus the code that runs them. They also unusually absorb a ghost presence of their former masters. Titans for example store a memory of their princeps, and develop a crude personality that is a mixture of said human echo and their own aggressively-programmed core (they're war engines after all). Knight-Titans do the same thing. It's most likely a by-product of the MIU technology, which basically bridges the gap between the human brain and the artificial world and thus allows both to bleed into the other somewhat. The age of these intelligences is also a factor, they've typically developed over at least decades if not hundreds or thousands of years. 

 

The tier beyond MIU-caused machine spirits is abominable intelligence (AI). Given that AI shattered the first interstellar human empire and nearly caused the extinction of the human race, its banned and feared with good reason. I'm sure the Dark Mechanicum have no issue creating such things, but they also mix in daemons and warp taint so they're not exactly pure AI anyway. 

 

None of them can physically manifest without a physical vector though (either a shell like a battle robot or servitor, or even sometimes they take over a human host with sufficient augmetics). Maybe Necron intelligences can, but not human-created ones. 

[Battybattybats]

Superstitious explanation for basic machineries function?

Computer programs?

Limited A.I.?

Remnants of digitised organic consciousnesses?

Organic brain components wired into machinery?

Actual spirits?

Some combination of or all of the above?

All but actual spirits, as only warp entities are spirits, and Machine Spirits are not (barring Dark Mechanicum heresy) warp entities, they're machines and thus wholly of the material plane.

You are declaring Heresies in flagrant conflict with the 16 Universal Laws of the Omnissian Cult

10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.

11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.

Playfulness aside, might they be at all right? Is there an actual Omnissiah? The way the warp works is that emotion and belief accrue and gain sentience, (perhaps explaining the Imperial Truth, Emperor trying to turn the rest of the galaxy other than the Mechanicum atheist during the Great Crusade), while everyone remembers the 4 major warp powers people often forget that minor ones also exist (including the Emperors cast-out nice side going by 1st ed realm of chaos vol 2) and after thousands of years of belief even if it started as purely false myth the power of the warp could have made the Omnissiah real (or bestowed that power on the Emperor) and perhaps made machine spirits real.

In the Dark Heresy 40k rpg FFG sourcebook The Lathe Worlds...

There are Discordants, rare people with the capacity to suppress machine spirits causing machines to turn off, malfunction or even explode. As to be expected these are not very popular people to most of the Mechanicus, though some want to control them and use them against their factional enemies or Hereteks etc) This is an effect rather similar to the old 1st Ed 40k psychic power Jinx which makes any complex machine cease working, though it is not described as a psychic power as such nor functions using the psychic rules of the game either. It could well be warp-related.

Also in Graham McNeil's 'Of Mars' trilogy...

There is a character who is 'Machine Touched' and has an ability to make broken machine spontaneously work again. This is treated as Holy rather than Psychic. It could well be warp-related and perhaps sign the Omnissiah is a real entity.

Of course though in the novel Mechanicum by the same author..

The Emperor similarly heals a machine, which is why he was believed by many to be the Omnissiah, and of course he may have just done this psychically to convince the Mechanicum that he is the Omnissiah. Nevertheless much as faith in the Emperor long since his 'ascending' to the Golden Throne appears to have caused miracles to occur so to might the faith in him as the Omnissiah likewise lead to such miracles.

As for manifestation, mine is noospherically manifest, ethereal in a sense, able to harm machines in range but only able to be seen and fought by those noospherically enabled. Fighting in the liminal space between the physical realm and the datasphere.

[miteyheroes]

In Gods of Mars someone has the ability to shut machines down by severing the machine spirit. This also works with other spirits-in-machines, including things that had some sort of sentience.

[apologist]

I like the inherent contradictions of the setting, and the fact that two things can be equally true – and simultaneously false! With that borne in mind, I think my very favourite conception of the machine spirit is based on the designer's notes from the back of Rogue Trader:

 

 

Except on the occasions where a technical explanation or description was felt useful to an understanding of the rules. such explanations have generally been avoided. The book contains few descriptions of how specific items are used or function – it is enough within the context of the game that the item has the effects attributed to it. This has been a deliberate policy throughout the rules. The main reason for this is simply that the Age of the Imperium is not a technically inclined age.

 

To have included description of 'head-up displays', 'computer links', etc, would have given the wrong impression entirely. This is an age where problems are solved by brute force and ignorance, where dangers are either too gross or too unthinkable to elicit any other response. The other reason why technical description has been avoided is that the Age of the lmperium lies more than forty thousand years in the future – at a stage in history when those head-up displays and computers are about as innovative as stone circles.

 

What scientific knowledge persists from the Dark Age of Technology is far above and beyond anything we can imagine from the perspective of the Twentieth century. That understanding lies only with a select few - the Adeptus Mechanicus - the Tech-priests of the Imperium. Even their knowledge is somewhat debased and the popular image of technology can be compared with that of witchcraft in medieval times. Those who come into contact with technology use it with reservations and a reverence that are almost religious.

 

The Space Marines, for example, treat their weapons and armour as if it were imbued with a will of its own – a fine chest-plate, well looked after and constantly maintained – may reward its wearer by saving his life; whereas a Marine who neglects his equipment may be struck down by a leaking suit or malfunctioning weapons. Such is the will of the Gods.

 

With that in mind, I love the idea that the setting as a whole is in the Pathetic mode – i.e. it's just miserable and depressing; no magic, no spirits; just misunderstanding and distrust.

 

In this view, a machine spirit is simply the particular qualities of a machine, nothing mystical. Ever had an old car or motorbike that needed to be started in a very specific way? The ignitition turned twice, and the clutch let in just... right? And you had to have the heater on so hot your leg hairs crackled, because if you tried turning it off the electrics blew? Or the electric roof only opened halfway on wet days?

 

That sort of thing is how I like to think of machine spirits.

 

Similarly, have you ever taught someone how to use a computer, and checked in three months later and found out they're still opening every single window with a double click because that was exactly how you showed them? Or they unplug the mouse and keyboard after they've finished?

 

That's how I like to think of low-ranking techpriests.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh yeah its definitely a function of superstition. But in terms of 'what kind of manifestation can a machine spirit make?', anything bar the physical (as it needs a vector). 

[Teetengee]

I imagine if there was some sort of holoprojection device or a psychic residue, it could at least appear physical. Also, I think it affecting technology would be easy enough to justify. So model on!

[Battybattybats]

With noospherics in the novels appearing to be a kind of 40k wi-fi with Augmented Reality aspects (techpriests seeing code moving around them, seeing data-files on the people they are interacting with etc) it'd be possible for a machine spirit if it is a software program attached to a machine in such a system to act within the range, to move to (possess) other machines attached to the system or accessing it, to attack (deliver infectious code to, hack, to send delete commands to), held at bay with rituals of protection (firewalls), cleansing (virus-scan) and command (admin codes).

To the superstitious it'd be a spirit-world only the initiated can see, full of things that power the universe around them that they can interact with and others cannot. Where knowledge enables greater control of spirits and access to more secrets, where dangers of malign spirits lurk for those not yet knowledgeable enough.

A whole separate but real, though misunderstood, occultism full of mediumship, necromantic summonings, darke artes, jealously guarded series of magic numbers and words of power....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh yeah, the average person in 40k things their lasgun has a machine spirit. So outside of the Ad Mech, Astartes, Inquisition etc, no one else has a more nuanced understanding of machines or code. And even then, a trained person only does things in ritual form, they lack the ability to invent or improve. 

 

You also have to appreciate that the Mechanicum is compromised by the Necrontyr (or more specifically the Dragon). So, while a lot of their knowledge is human, their cult is influenced by the dreams of an alien entity. 

[Battybattybats]

Though maybe a lot of 'simple' tech has software in it. A Lasgun might have temperature regulators or other systems of response (like my printer recognising when i put in name-brand ink lol).
Actually.. i think this is the case as in Gods of Mars

a Magos was able to prevent a lot of weapons from firing from a short distance.

Also at another point in Gods of Mars

a hostile code was somehow placed onto weapons including an Astartes chainsword and the Black Templars Champion obsidian sword which impeded the regenerative nanotech of an enemy, this suggests storage devices in the weapons and short-range emitters to transfer the code. Suggesting that even simple swords in much of the 40k universe may be much more complex than we expect, and that their wielders and makers probably realise!

I also wonder if during the Dark Age of Technology a lot of machinery was made to be operated by the religious to be carried out in faith rather than understanding, so the software 'spirits' actually designed to respond to rituals, which fits into the Asimov's Foundation Scientism influence mentioned in the discussion of red colour. This would be undoubtedly compounded after Old Night if it existed before it.

As for the Dragon's influence i wonder how extensive it is and it's nature.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This is a cool conversation on one of the things I've always loved about the Mechanicum. I've always personally considered the "Machine Spirit" reverence to be a drilled and trained obedience to technology by the Mechanicum, though I've only ever read fluff written from an outside perspective of them. I work in tech support for an offshore firm, so I know how the mentality of, "do this because otherwise it will refuse to work," takes precedence over spending time and effort trying to explain why, (especially as most of our staff are biologists, and thus are great at biology, but couldn't tell you Ohm's Law or how to change a fuse...no really.)

 

Let's face it, at best those of us here have a basic working knowledge of how an iPhone works, but could never have to replicate/repair one. As a result, the increasing complexity of technology is going to demand we keep up the mentality of, "just do this because that is what makes it work" for the majority of people. As a result, Mechanicum personnel would train all outsiders not trained/blessed enough to revere the rites of repair and maintenance necessary to maintain their weapon.

 

For a Lasgun, it's a simple matter of keeping it running, but it could prevent a Plasma Gun killing its bearer or exploding, and thus is valuable to drill into the general populace at the lowest level. Heck, it's likely the Mechanicum itself sees technology as something to be tamed and held to rigorous ritual no matter what, because things like Cyclonic Torpedoes and Warlord Titans are too dangerous and powerful to risk tinkering with the design and introducing a fatal fault. The "Machine Spirit" is probably just a catch-all term for the quirks and machinery within each design, like how in Helsreach, one of the Storm Troopers is training some conscripted dock workers, and tells them the Lasgun charge pack on the Armageddon pattern needs force to properly connect, as the Machine Spirit is unruly for a while after creation. He then notes another pattern that operates smoothly and cleanly straight off the line, showing that part of it is simple quality of manufacture, much like the quirks and traits we see people anthropomorphise in their cars and such today.

 

Aaaand I probably waffled on way too long over this...sorry!

[Ion]

Considering how long mankind has been around, and how old tech used AI and could have evolved, it's possible that Machine Spirits are the evolved/remnants of the previous civilization that remain in certain machines (and have been replicated into newly made versions of said machines), such as those inherent in Land Raiders and the like. In this explanation, some of those AI might in fact get offended when not treated properly, and so the Mechanicum took a 'better safe than sorry' approach which became dogmatic superstition.

 

If you could piss off a land raider to the point it runs you over, or upset a starship so it vents the atmosphere, you're not going to take risks when shooting a gun either.

[Yodhrin]

In Gods of Mars someone has the ability to shut machines down by severing the machine spirit. This also works with other spirits-in-machines, including things that had some sort of sentience.

 

Yes, by deploying what is essentially extremely potent scrapcode, ie a virus - it's still technological. The only possibly-supernatural behaviour on show in the of Mars series is the "Machine Touched" guy, and it's never made clear whether his abilities are genuinely supernatural, psychic ability, or simply the Speranza(which is obviously a pre-Strife AI) acting through him.

 

In my view, Machine Spirits are almost entirely superstition, they're what happens when you take the normal human propensity to anthropomorphise inanimate objects(berating your coffee maker when it doesn't work right, begging your PC to turn on normally and not be broken after it crashes, referring to cars and ships with feminine pronouns, giving things nicknames etc) and filter it through centuries of ignorance and dogma. A combination of ritualisation of basic necessary maintenance to facilitate easy rote learning, and basic human confirmation bias.

 

Of course, because they believe in Machine Spirits, that means occasionally they are something more(unrecognised[or a convenient way to ignore/downplay the fact you're working with] AI, Turing-capable but not sentient programs, manifestations of undetected psychic potential in the user and so on), simply because if you start with the presumption that machines have a will, even an intelligence of their own, when you see a machine exhibiting those qualities your belief is validated and so it must be a Spirit.

 

I don't mind a wee bit of the "woooOOOooo, Machine-Jeebus did it" stuff, it's 40K afterall, but that interpretation diminishes the Mechanicus as an entity IMO, because it robs them of their narrative value as a warning about the dangers of dogmatism and willful ignorance, and about allowing extreme circumstances(remember the Cult Mechanicus developed out of the besieged and deprived survivors of the collapse of Mars' terraforming during the Age of Strife)  to rob us of our more noble attributes.

[Battybattybats]

 

In Gods of Mars someone has the ability to shut machines down by severing the machine spirit. This also works with other spirits-in-machines, including things that had some sort of sentience.

 

Yes, by deploying what is essentially extremely potent scrapcode, ie a virus - it's still technological. The only possibly-supernatural behaviour on show in the of Mars series is the "Machine Touched" guy, and it's never made clear whether his abilities are genuinely supernatural, psychic ability, or simply the Speranza(which is obviously a pre-Strife AI) acting through him.

 

In my view, Machine Spirits are almost entirely superstition, they're what happens when you take the normal human propensity to anthropomorphise inanimate objects(berating your coffee maker when it doesn't work right, begging your PC to turn on normally and not be broken after it crashes, referring to cars and ships with feminine pronouns, giving things nicknames etc) and filter it through centuries of ignorance and dogma. A combination of ritualisation of basic necessary maintenance to facilitate easy rote learning, and basic human confirmation bias.

 

Of course, because they believe in Machine Spirits, that means occasionally they are something more(unrecognised[or a convenient way to ignore/downplay the fact you're working with] AI, Turing-capable but not sentient programs, manifestations of undetected psychic potential in the user and so on), simply because if you start with the presumption that machines have a will, even an intelligence of their own, when you see a machine exhibiting those qualities your belief is validated and so it must be a Spirit.

 

I don't mind a wee bit of the "woooOOOooo, Machine-Jeebus did it" stuff, it's 40K afterall, but that interpretation diminishes the Mechanicus as an entity IMO, because it robs them of their narrative value as a warning about the dangers of dogmatism and willful ignorance, and about allowing extreme circumstances(remember the Cult Mechanicus developed out of the besieged and deprived survivors of the collapse of Mars' terraforming during the Age of Strife)  to rob us of our more noble attributes.

 

Though how much of the 'machine spirits' are programs and some degree of A.I.?

In the second of Mars book

a warhound titan is damaged and it's spirit acts to help save a crewmember opening a hatch itself, but later the machine spirit is said to have died and a new one drawn forth to put in it's place. This was i think signs of it being a program, no biggie there that's standard titan fluff.

 

 

Still the question is how common are such in imperial machines? We have programming in all sorts of things, so the Imperium might have it in most tech. That doesn't rule out or dilute the superstition theme at all i think, but it may mean that every servo skull and maybe even a lot of firearms might have sophisticated programs in them which would be perceived as spirits.

 

Also in Knights of the Imperium we have

a Binaric Saint, an early apostle of the Omnissian faith whose consciousness was apparently uploaded in some fashion and which while apparently much faded and degraded over time nevertheless seems to respond to external circumstance.

 

 

Early Titan fluff (Adeptus Titanicus) if i'm recalling it correctly, said that the consciousness from the brains of wolves in the case of warhounds and bears in reavers and battle titans, were uploaded to form the core of the titans mind granting it it's reflexes instincts and it's own will. The human crew then connected with this forming the higher thought of the titan and worked with and where needed overrode the strong will and instinct of the animal uploaded into it.

 

In a way Knights work similarly to this early titan fluff, which raises the question how much of imperial tech may involve uploading parts of the minds of biological entities to become the software systems and programs within machines? I'm thinking not much, but it's a question that's worth asking.