Altasmurf Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 In a recent post I listed of various styles of guard armies and another poster asked if I'd be willing to expand on my ideas. I figured why not and this way others can come in with their opinions and perhaps a good breakdown of the various army styles of the guard could be explored as a group not just an individual. One of the things that has kept me interested in guard since 2nd edition is that they are capable of making so many different army types. IE. Horde, mechanized, heavy tank ect. However they are also capable of other styles that some might not even think of IE. Airborne, Rapid Attack, Elite Trooper. I plan on breaking down some of style I'm familiar with and ask that others add in their opinions and own army style so that we all can see what exactly this codex is capable of.So a few notes before I begin.1. I have played competitivly but I'm not a WAAC guy and this will be seen in my lists. Usually they are built more around a theme and style and thus will not always include whatever the internet says must always be included in an army.2. This post is really just my opinion, it's not set fact. Hell I'll probably even be wrong but really this just for the sake of generating some friendly discussion.3. I'm going to stick to just the Guard Codex I won't be adding allies, formations, defenses, or forgeworld as I'm just not familiar with everything that is out there, I do however recognize that these are great additions to guard armies and have no problems with people telling me when an out of codex unit would be benificial for an army style. 4. The lists prestented will be 1500 points bound. If anything it's a baseline with room for improvement. So with that out of the way I figured I'd start on the most basice style and probably the most simple, but also effective, build for guard.Combined ArmsCombined arms is really just a catch phrase for anything in the codex is fair game. You choose units from all over the codex with particular roles in mind and then try and create redundancy across the list in various forms so that no matter what you can tackle any situation. Be warned however this army becomes a jack of all trades but master of none type of army. You will have firepower, speed and resiliancy but not in every unit. You will have anit-tank, anti-flyer, anti-troop, but not an abundance of it. Well you get the idea. The key is to choose units that can support each other and make up for the failings of other units, as well as spread out your weapons types, unit types, and tactical options so there is always a layer of redundancy.Pros- No lynch pin unit. In this army any unit can be lost with out your overall game plan being affected.- You always have the right tool for the right job. No matter what your opponet throws at you, you will have somthing to deal with it.- Classic guard stlye. Nothing says cool like infantry supporting tanks, while sentinels walk by, and psykers shoot lightning bolts.Cons- Target rich enviornment. No matter what weapon your opponent has he will have a target, there's no need for him to waste a lascannon on a guardsman because there's probably a tank around Sample List CCS Autocannon, Astropath, Chimera - This unit is a support unit giving out orders from the saftey of a chimera, and lending supporting fire with an AC. Astropath is a cheap warp charge and Telepathy has some nice powers. Primarius Psyker Level II - Psychic support, great for buffing units Priest - Hitches a ride in the blob squad. Veterans, 2 x plasmagun, 1 x heavy flamer, Chimera - A utility unit capable of tackling quite a few different targets, and using mobility to capture objectives. Veterans, 3 x meltagun, chimera - Mobile anti tank, anti monsterous creatuer, anti big stuff unit. PCS Flamer x 4 - Will hitch a ride in a vendetta for a great drop BBQ. Don't forget also has objective secured. Infantry Squad x 2 Plasmagun, autocannon - These 2 get blobbed together to provide great firepower and objective defense. In a pinch can be used to snap shot at fliers. Vendetta - Excellent anti-big stuff, and anti flyer Vendetta -As above Wyvren - Just a super useful tank vs. any infantry. Leman Russ Executioner Hull Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponson - Excellent fire support vs. heavy infantry, monsterous creatures, and light vehicles. Leman Russ Eradicator Hull heavy flamer - Just some excellent anti infantry on a leman russ chasis. As you can see there are many layers of redundancy. Your opponent's fire power will be stretched to put the hurt on any aspect of your army, and you can easily survive the loss of any unit in the list. I will attempt to add new styles and lists periodically as time permits but invite everyone to please contribute. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 This is a good start, could do with some styling and formatting to make it more readable though but this will be another great addition to the resources topic :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3873465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatmandoo Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Thanks for this and a great start to a Tactica. This is very much a generalist list and i may have even included a Valkyrie instead of a 2nd Vendetta to provide movement for one of the vet squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3873470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 I apologize as I have been busy lately but I will be adding the next list right away. I just figured I'd reply to some comments Thanks for this and a great start to a Tactica. This is very much a generalist list and i may have even included a Valkyrie instead of a 2nd Vendetta to provide movement for one of the vet squads. The beauty of the combined list is that it is so easy to tweak and make changes, in your example if I did that I'd scoring some points to the swap the vets chimera for a devil dog. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3878488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 No need to rush, better to do a good article and take longer :) I'd like for you to embellish on the nature of balanced lists, perhaps with counter points to specialist ones as well as a bit on battle forged and unbound :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3878529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Air CavalryIf you feel the need to have your minatures come flying on the board while "ride of the Valkyries" plays on your I-Pod, then this is probably the army style for you.Really the main goal of this list is to try and bring as much firepower to bear in surgical arial strikes as possible and then land to clean up the remanants. The workhorse of this type of army is Valkyries loaded with veterans. You can sub in either infantry squads or storm troopers but these suffer compared to the vets with the former not having the hitting power, and the later being more expensive. Remember this is a finese army, a scalpel, not the sledge hammer of the Emperor and as such you must plan each turn well in advance to make sure you can accomplish what you need to. The biggest issue with an army of this style is to make sure whatever starts on the board (remember your reserves don't show up until turn 2) will survive up to 2 turns of play.Pros- Extremly mobile. With the amout of flyers you have that can carry troops you can get your squads to where ever you want them to be.- Flyer heavy. Lets face it even a prepared opponent can still struggle against the amout of fliers you will bring.Cons- Vulnerable to alphastrike. Because most of your units are in reserve a well planned alpha strike can wipe you out first turn.- Not an easy to play list. An air cav list has to be able to plan in advance and make choices as the game ebbs and flows. Air cav can not survive a a bad turn.Sample ListThis list will not be listed by FOC but instead as 2 parts. This first will have the Air Cav including units and which flyer they will start in, the second will be the starting ground forces.Air CavCCSMelta x 4Vendetta- Big game hunters, both the flyer and the unit can engage the same target in order to maximize damage against it or split up and engage 2 seperate big threats.Veteran SquadMelta x 3ValkyrieRocket Pod- I would probably squadron this unit with the one below as both are meant to hit heavy targets and it would allow you to focus fire power against a rather larger threat while the Valkyries engage infantry.Veteran SquadPlasma x 3ValkyrieRocket Pod- A specialist squad specializing in killing heavy infantry or light tanks. Pairs well with the unit above in order to tackle any major threat.Veteran SquadPlasma x 2, Heavy FlamerValkyrieRocket Pod- A swiss army knife unit that can plug a hole in your lines or engage just about any target in the game.Ground ForcesCCSLascannon, Vox, Master of the Fleet- Here to provide orders for the ground units and give a bonus to the reserve roll for your Air CavPCSAutocannon, Vox- A little bit of extra fire support that is also Objective Secured.Infantry SquadPlasma, Autocannon, VoxInfantry SquadFlamer, AutocannonPriest- This group is blobbed in order to maximize survival rate and focus firepower. Infantry SquadPlasma, Lascannon, VoxInfantry SquadFlamer, LascannonPriest- Same as above One thing to note is that I used an Infantry based ground force. There is no requirement for this. For the ground forces feel free to use what you want IE. mechanized, heavy armour, scions, ect. Just bear in mind what ever your ground forces are they will be outnumbered to start, or if you put to many points into them they begin to take away your Air Cav feel. Let me know what you think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3878949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I think infantry ground forces work better, seems more dramatic to have the day saved by air support that way - vehicles wouldn't have the same feel! Plus the infantry will likely be more survivable so you can bring on your expensive flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3879102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatmandoo Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Including a bunker with a shield and Comms relay will help your ground units survivability. Even the trusty Aegis with a Comms relay on a budget would help. Either are theatrical too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3879119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 A bit of thread necromancy here. So life kind of dragged me down and I was not able to continue on this topic and I appologize for that. Now it looks like my hobby time is returning so I thought I'd keep trucking on. I figured I'd jump right in with another army style. Rapid Attack The guard are normally a ponderous sledge hammer advancing at a snails pace pounding the opponent into dust. The only problem is that opponents can achieve objectives in certain style of missions (mainly Malestorm missions) before the guard can react. The codex does actually contain a few units capable of responding quickly to any situation and a rapid attack army utilizes these units to create a Guard army Capable of being more mobile then most armies out there. True you will never match the speed of the Eldar Codexs or the mobility of the Tau, you will however be ably to keep up with Orks in trucks and actually surpass most marine armies. The fast units you should be focusing on are the fliers, hellhounds and their ilk, rough riders, and storm troopers in Taurox. The key is to keep your fast units moving from location to laction and your slower units moving to support those units at range. Some key support units are veterans in transports, sentinels, and LRBT. These units can still at least move and provide fire support. Much like Air Cav this army is a bit of a finesse armyrequiring planning to see the day through, but most opponents will not be prepared for such as fast moving guard army still brining the firepower. Pros - Very mobile, this army style is able to compete in objective based games better. - Unexpected, people aren't prepared for such speed from a guard army and are often caught off guard in the begining. Cons - Low model count, guard pays for speed and mobility, that and general infantry squads just have no place in the list. - Fast attack fills up fast, pretty much all the speed comes from the Fast atack section this can make it tough to get all the units you want. Sample list CCS 2 x plasma, medic, Chimera - orders and fire support in one neat little package Veterans 3 x melta, demolitions, Taurox - heavy hitter, a classic anti tank unit. I chose the Taurox for the built in terrain re-roll to keep it moving. Veterans 3 x plasma, grenadiers, Taurox - anti everything, and in a pinch can disembark to hold ground while the Taurox stays on the move. Hellhound Squad 2 x Hellhound - Speed, anti-infantry firepower, and a pretty solid tank hull. Devil-Dog Squad 2 x Devil-Dog with multi meltas - These are the heavy hitters of the list, play them smart and they can melt anything. Storm Trooper Platoon Tempestus CS 4 x melta, Taurox with gatling cannon Tempustus Squad 10 Man, 2 x plasma, Taurox with missle launcher -This is a little self sufficient platoon capable of engaging any target. Use these to support your main force or act as their own small attack group accomplishing tasks on the side. As you can see only 40 men and 9 smaller tank hulls can make this a fragile army so you have to play smart and keep on the move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3991182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Good to see you back, and an update to this topic! The speed list is unexpected as you say which is one of the reasons I like such a style, that and I like our Fast Attack options. Speed also opens up a lot of tactical options which is great to have as you can respond and react so much better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3991244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Mechanized: No infantry that doesn't have a chimera. That's really the only requirement. Beyond that, there's a lot of flexibility. HQ could be a tank commander or a CCS with chimera. Troops...well....veterans are easiest, since you're committing to three chimeras and twenty five men minimum for a platoon, but that platoon is actually the fluffiest. I built my mech list under the old dex, where vets were overpriced, so I had two platoons of 35 men and 4 tracks each... Either way is fine. Obviously, it makes perfect sense to include russes, hellhounds, sentinels, etc, according to your preferences. If you like, I can edit this post with two lists, my mech platoons list, and my mech vets list. Mech Platoons List: HQ: Company Command Squad with 3 plasma and chimera Troops: Platoon Command Squad with two meltaguns and chimera Infantry Squad with autocannon and chimera Infantry Squad with autocannon and chimera Infantry Squad with autocannon and chimera Platoon Command Squad with two meltaguns and chimera Infantry Squad with autocannon and chimera Infantry Squad with autocannon and chimera Infantry Squad with autocannon and chimera Heavy Support: Demolisher with dozer blade and extra armor Demolisher with dozer blade and extra armor 2x Leman Russ with lascannon Mech Vets List: HQ: Pask in vanquisher with hull-mounted lascannon Leman Russ wingman with hull-mounted lascannon Troops: Veteran squad with forward sentries, autocannon, and chimera Veteran squad with forward sentries, autocannon, and chimera Veteran squad with forward sentries, autocannon, and chimera Veteran squad with forward sentries, autocannon, and chimera Fast Attack: Hellhound Hellhound 2 Scout Sentinels Heavy Support: Demolisher with extra armor and dozer blade Demolisher with extra armor and dozer blade 2 Wyverns Fortification: Skyshield Landing Pad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3991476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Do it up I say. The more examples the better. Just trying to give people ideas of what's possible with the guard codex. @ WarriorFish glad I've got time to be in the hobby again hopefully I can add some more lists before the next life interference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3991497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 These lists would be great if I still played ! Had a look back through my old lists and these are much more different. March's mechanized lists really open my eyes as to what people take in an Armoured Fist. The last looks like a sensible list for the Veterans. All those Chimeras are quite nice! Looking at the whole thread, I wonder at what point does it become "spamming"? What I mean is this: do most Guard players take, say, three meltaguns with their Veteran Squads? It just seems like too much of the same thing to me but, then again, this was the army I started and told myself I wouldn't look at the internet when a list was made. There was a guy in my ex-gaming group that would do things like that with his Space Marines and it made everyone's stomach churn. Then again, I think he had to since his "tactics" were a bit off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3991521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 @Mehman Spam really is in the eye of the beholder. For me spam comes in when you take what is more often then not considered overpowered (riptide, dreadknight, wraithknight) and fill their force org chart section with them. I don't mind a couple of anything especially if they're equipped different. It's when you see 4 riptide (CAD and ally) that the game is probably going to be no fun. I also never consider anything troops to be spam but it is nice to see weapon variation. But that's just me, everyone has a different opinion. As for arming a squad like vets with all the same weapon, to do otherwise would dilute your army. This isn't a game where melta gunner Joe shots at a tank while his squad covers him from advancing cultists, nope those guardsmen have to fire their flashlights at the land raider. Generally weapon matching is accepted, it's when 4 or 5 squads are equipped the same that raises flags. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3991724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Thanks for helping me understand! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 There's not really such a thing as spam for Guard, as it either isn't a viable plan/good use of points or is perfectly fluffy to do. Spam is mostly in the eye of the beholder, usually as he beholds his second place funnily enough... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The elysians are probably the best way to do Air assault, with their combat drop rule, getting valkyries in turn 1, which means getting vets and stormtroopers on the table turn 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I won't take credit for this list as I saw it somewhere else but I've always thought that it was a pretty cool list idea although it would be painful to play with and against I think. Infantry Swarm Commissar Yarrick Lord Commissar 2 Priests Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - rad grenades, force axe, ML1, 3 servo skulls, Tome of Vethric PCS Infantry Squad - flamer, power axe, meltabomb Infantry Squad - flamer, power axe, meltabomb Infantry Squad - flamer, power axe, meltabomb Infantry Squad - power axe, meltabomb Infantry Squad - power axe, meltabomb PCS Infantry Squad - LC, meltabomb Infantry Squad - LC, meltabomb Infantry Squad - LC Infantry Squad - LC PCS Infantry Squad - LC, meltabomb Infantry Squad - LC, meltabomb Infantry Squad - LC Infantry Squad - LC Vendetta Vulture with Punisher Cannon Wyvern Wyvern 1849 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altasmurf Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 @wulfgar I've seen those types of list before and wondered how well they would really do because the footprint of the blob is so massive. It seems like an army with some artillery would just take chunks out of an army like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I agree, although if you space them out 2" it would somewhat mitigate the impact of the artillery. Things like manticores and deathstrikes would ruin entire blobs though. The army is also very slow so would suffer significantly in maelstrom missions. I do like the idea of ignores cover lascannons though, especially against things like wave serpents. This would be a very mentally taxing army to play I believe because you would have to pay close attention to spacing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampyrerodent Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Oh my god! That game would take an hour for each turn just to move around. I ought know as I ran several light armor lists way back in 3rd....All I had for armor were Sentinels and we never got through three turns in tournaments. In fact that's what I'm slowly working towards again! FLAMERS TO THE FRONT!! It is quite imposing to look across the table and just see a mass of armed troops coming your way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I think if someone were to seriously contemplate playing a list like that you would have to use movement trays or something to speed up the movement phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 It would be quite an effort to play such a list, but it does look a little boring. I can only imagine it being more boring still as you slog through the phases of the game... would be interesting to see how it gets on though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3992889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I agree, although if you space them out 2" it would somewhat mitigate the impact of the artillery. You're joking, right? With three blobs on the table, there quite literally isn't room for that sort of spacing, especially in your deployment zone. Now, I did try something like that in the last army book, but I used al'rahem to outflank one of the blobs....that worked well enough. But 150 infantry at 2" spacing is quite literally impossible in a normal deployment zone, ask any ork player. Worse, it's not the time that it takes to move them, the real problem is that they're ALWAYS rolling for difficult terrain, which gives the enemy extra turns to rip them apart before they cross the table...and then the enemy can just multicharge one of the three blobs with 2-3 squads. Wanna guess what happens when what used to be 50 guardsmen four turns ago get stuck in with 30 marines? Nothing good...it's a great idea on paper, though. /edit/ The concept works for orks because the survivors of the table-crossing-slog are actually competent in melee. Guard tries to emulate this, but a low density of WS3 S4 AP2 attacks in the survivors is pitiful when you consider the rest are after all generic guardsmen who have no business in melee. So you lose 15-20 guardsmen at I4, kill 7 marines at I1, and then are actually outnumbered...oops. It only works if it's 50 guardsmen against 10 marines...2-3 squads of marines, and you lose. If anything, get 50 guardsmen inside of 12" and open up with 150 flashlight shots via FRFSRF....but actually, it'd be more like 90, since 40% of the men die enroute... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3993952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Obviously I don't have your vast experience playing with Guard so it was simply an idea. I offered it as an example and maybe an idea for others to expand upon. No need to be condescending about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299770-army-types-of-the-astra-militarium/#findComment-3993974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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