Phalanx Warder Squads (How to equip them)

[marshal seanisi]

What do you guy's think as far as equiping a 10 man Warder Squad in a Land Raider?   I was thinking 7 Power Axes, 2 Meltas and the SGT with a Power sword ( for initiative in Challenges)

Oppinions?

[Slips]

I would go for a more balanced approach, personally. Mainly due to how our Legion Rules affect them. With 7 Power Axes and 2 Meltas in a 10 man squad, thats only 1 bolter left to shoot and we get BS5 when shooting those so by not maximizing on that, you're (to me at least) wasting some of that potential.

 

I'd say 4 Power Axes, 1 Power Weapon of Choice on Sarge with Artificer armor and Melta Bombs. If you wanted Melta or Plasma I'd go for a Combi-Weapon over a Meltagun or Plasma Gun because that way you always have the BS5 Shooting option Available. Also makes it cheaper.

 

That way you still have AP2, Still make good use of the +1 Initiative when Charged and make good use of the +1BS when shooting. With Combi-Weapons, It lets you cheaply tailor the unit to a particular role beyond their normal one: Melta for armor, Plasma if you want more AP2 and Flamer for Hordes. (we also have Combi-Grenade launchers but no-one talks about that...)

 

Preferably, you'd have a squad of 20 in a Spartan and divide it 50/50 with Power Axes. That way you have 10 shooty bolter dudes that hit at I5 in CC and 10 Ap2 Power Axe Wielders who will make terminators Cry. Also, the amount of bodies also permits you to take more special Weapons or potentially 10 Combi-Weapons on the Non-Axe Marines.

 

Then you take the RoW and make them All T5.

 

But, this is only how I would do it. If you want them to be a Powerful counter-assault unit, then you're set up loots good. Maybe take flamers for D3 auto-hits when charged.

[Moonstalker]

Slipstreams, I think you're focusing too much on the benefits of BS5.  Yes, it's great for your line troopers who only get bolters, but it's only a ~17% additional hits.  How does that even compete with near-doubling of strength and the power of AP?

 

2 bolter shots @ BS5 vs marine
1.666 hits
0.833 wounds
0.277 failed armor saves
0.185 failed FNP saves

1 melta shot @ BS4 vs marine
0.666 hits
0.555 wounds
0.555 failed armor saves
0.555 failed FNP saves

 

2 plasma shots @ BS4 vs marine

1.333 hits

1.111 wounds

1.111 failed armor saves

0.740 failed FNP saves

 

 

Obviously, the bolter can hit at 24 inches where the meltagun cannot, but the meltagun is going to perform much better against harder targets (like Contemptors, Rhinos, Castellax) and can be fired before assaulting.  The power of special weapons vs bolters cannot be overcome with a simple +1 to BS, the str/ap difference (especially in a MEQ-heavy environment, such as the Heresy) is simply too great for that.

 

Combi vs full on specials... if the entire squad could take combis for that price, it's obviously the correct choice.  That much firepower and alpha strike would pay for itself in one go.  However, with the 1-in-5 restriction, you need to ask yourself the age-old question: how many turns of shooting will I get?  If the answer is 1 (like if you've loaded them in a Spartan), then yeah, combi's all the way, save the points where you can.  But if you think you'll get in 3 turns of shooting, or more?  Well, the specials are 3x the price of the combis.

[caladancid]

If you are wanting an assault unit wouldn't it just be better to take Terminators? The Phalanx warders with axes have fewer attacks and have less survivability that a 5 man termi squard.

 

I guess if you were full on elites already that might play into it. I dunno, I have been looking at the warders bc the models will look so awesome, but the rules (especially with axes taking away the initiative boost) don't seem to be good.

 

All that being said, if you need a good fast attack choice, they are probably better than the overpriced assault squads and the land raider will help them get into combat. I'd guess in that case your setup is decent.

[Nusquam]

Don't forget they have bolt pistols to use BS5. And if they're in a LR you probably want to charge so bolters will prevent you.

[marshal seanisi]

Yea I was considering them as a Fast Attack Assault Squad.  BS 5 with the Bolt Pistols  T5 With the IF ROW and +1 S with AP2 from the Power AXE.  But I will Probably Drop the Melta Guns and give them Melta Bombs since I plan on using them as an assault unit. 

 

I plan on using Sigismund and a 9 Man Templar unit in another Land Raider.  So between those 2 units and Sigismund,  they should be able to dish out enough punishment to handle whatever I may run accross.

[TemujinZero]

I think it's best to equip them with house rules so that they don't suck so spectacularly.  They're fairly widely acknowledged to be the worst unit in 30k, so if you're dead set on running them for thematic reasons (nothing wrong with that), I'd suggest spending as few points on them as possible.  Don't throw good points after bad.  Give the power weapons to a squad that has more than one attack and can get the bonus attack from their pistols.  Split the templars into 2 units and put them both in land raiders - 5 is more than enough against anything in power armour.  Leave your warders to hold an objective or something.  Consider running them as regular breachers - they're still not good by any means, but you don't have to waste quite so many points on them.

[marshal seanisi]

TemujinZero,  at 370 points for a 10 man squad that is T5 S5 AP2 and a 5 up Invul in CC  isn't that bad.  I would put them up against a Reaver Squad, Rampager Squad or Medusan Squad any day.

[Sevatar]

Eh. I disagree.

 

At 370 you can get 10, yes 10 Terminators, with Comvi weapons. Goodbye Warders.

 

Simlarly, you can stock up on the far superior Gal Vorbak or Red But hers who will slaughter them.

 

The problem is that at the end of the day, you are fielding 3+/5++ marines who die as easily to bolter fire as normal marines, have WS4, and who have power axes...but only 1 attack. For that many points, quite poor IMO.

[marshal seanisi]

The main idea is to have them in a Land Raider and Charge from it.  So on the Charge its 2 attacks at S5 T5 AP2.  So no..Gal Vorbak or Red Butchers won't hold up very well.  Hitting the Red Butchers on 3+ and The Gal Vorbak won't have the saves. 

 

I'm not saying they are the best unit.  The Templar Brethren are by far the better unit. (one of the best IMHO) but being able to count Warders as fast attack and using a Land Raider as a dedicated transport, couple that with all the bonus bumps they get with ROW and Power axes doesn't make them a bad unit. 

 

But as per everything, we are all entitled to our own opinions.  I'll see how they fare on the table top.  That will be the true test.

[Millicant]

As the kits have recently been released (ie earlier today) I find myself re-considering Phalanx Warders.  Specifically for games of Zone Mortalis.  

 

I dislike the idea of multiple Power Axes, since I will likely be running them with Alexis Polux and the Stone Gauntlet Rite of War.  Any reasons I should seriously think about power axes over bolters and flamers for Zone Mortalis games?

[Slips]

Terminators and other 2+ Saves, mostly.

 

Depending on Squad Size, I'd just run 5/10, 7/15 or 10/20 power axes to Bolter & Chainsword (HEYOOOOO!) and other Special Weapons. Maybe a Thunderhammer or Two (At most, again depending on squad size) if you think they'll be up against MCs / Multi-Wound Beatstick Characters for Concussive.

 

...Also Thunderhammer Warders would look pretty Baws.

[Millicant]

I don't know. 50% power axes seems ridiculous to me. At that point the warder squad is a similarly priced but less effective attempt at a terminator squad. Why bother with that many? I'd rather send terminators who have power weapons, bolters, and better armour AND invulnerable saves.

 

I want to like Warders. They seem cool. I guess I'm trying to figure out what niche they fill since they are way more expensive that breachers and way less tough than terminators. What's their role?

[Slips]

If anything I'd just keep 5 axes at all increments of squad size or for 15+ marines 3/4 axes and 1/2 Thunderhammers at most. And depending on the game type (ZM vs Normal Game) take a Flamer(s) or Plasma Gun(s), maybe? Breaching Charge I can't really get behind, Melta Guns are iffy, 

 

I Agree that for quasi Terminators that Terminators do the job better. I think the unit is made for the Stone Gauntlet RoW, ZM or a High-points Dorn List where they can be taken as Troops along with Terminators.

 

I dunno, I have to think about some more. Maybe if they had Counter-Attack as an additional rule they'd be better.

[Millicant]

See Slipstreams that's where I'm trying to use them!  I want to use them in Zone Mortalis, with or without their Rite of War.  They still don't seem viable.  I'm a pretty fluffy player, I typically stick with what I think is neat over "effective" but this is a stretch even for me.  

 

Anybody have any advice on equipping or using this unit?

[Nusquam]

Don't forget that their boarding shields also count as defensive grenades. So while they don't have Counter Attack, your opponent won't gain any benefit from charging them if they're unengaged.

 

They can go two ways overall off the top of my head. Both using the IF RoW. The first is for bigger games as a QRF in a Spartan. Big squad, fair number of axes and a Medicae and/or Navigator, Chaplain etc. Use your normal IF shooting to take down anything that would give them a problem and have them either attack into the weakest part of the enemy line or intercept incoming units. They do a Shield Charge and get as many HoW in as possible. Normal punching ensues then the axes clean house.

 

The second being multiple units inside Storm Eagles with a handful of axes for big games and one inside an Eagle for under 2.5k. Also as QRF. Normal Breachers keep your objectives while the Eagles and Warders grab midfield and/or go Tac marine hunting. Big guns support.

 

They are point defense and are for moving and doing their jobs. They aren't for Primarch hunting or punching out Termis or other Deathstars. You have plenty of big guns for that job and should you absolutely have to charge a beatstick unit soften them up as much as possible. Don't go using them outside their use. Use them to grind down enemy scoring and keeping objectives(hence why they have Resolve of Stone, Shield Wall and Boarding Shields).

 

That said I don't think there is a "standard catch-all" load out for them. It depends on the points, mission type and so on. They would really shine in a Strategic Raid Mission as the defender.

[Millicant]

Nusquam I like your post, but ultimately I feel I still have the same question. Even in the scenarios that you describe, what do warders offer that breachers don't? What do they offer that terminators don't do better for a nominal price increase?

 

I even plan to use them in their best-case-scenario environment of Zone Mortalis and I can only see them as a middle-ground between terminators and breachers. Sort of a Breacher+/Terminator- deal.

 

Maybe that is their role. Mildly more deadly than breachers with their axes, less survivable than terminators with their saves.

[Nusquam]

Warders are arguably better offensively and defensively. The IF RoW does up the ability of Breachers, but Warders are the "Elite" version. They have access to axes, which not only are AP2 but +1S which help significantly against AdMech automata as well as PA. Breachers can get bogged down fighting other infantry where as Warders will cut them down. Plus they can have basic Apothecaries in them as well. You pay more points for +1I when charged and access to more deadly weapons.

 

Where as you can put more Breachers on the board, Warders are better at removing enemies from the board. With a handful of axes Warders can clear off other blobs from objectives. What do normal Breachers offer over Warders? An extra body or two and access to graviton(which is heavy and there are better AT options) and volkite chargers. When I look at them I can't help but think the IF RoW would be better if Warders could be compulsory too.

 

Now on the extreme end(max bodies, upgrades etc) Warders will be around 100 points more depending. These points make them better at holding objectives(Shield Wall) and better at killing off attackers(access to AP2 in spades). The normal Breachers hold down the fort and Warders support them. Keep the Warders mobile(Eagle, Spartan) and the go where needed.

 

On Warder v Terminators it's apples v oranges. Warders are point defense and Terminators are offense. Terminators are good for going in and taking out big baddies; Templar Brethren, heavy automata and so on. Warders are for taking out Tacticals, other Breachers.

 

If we're getting down to knitty-gritty game-state, shooting will be better than Breachers, Terminators and Warders offensively and normal tacs for objectives in all games not Zone Mortalis. But one of the big draws of 30k is cinematics and an assortment of battlefields(Which I think is a frequently missed point of 30k, but that's another topic).

[Millicant]

Please don't misunderstand me - I am ALL about the cinematic of the game.  That's the reason I started 40k and it's the reason I'm so into 30k.  

 

That being said, I figured out one of the things that bothers me, but also a solution (kind of).  It's that adding more Breachers to a squad costs 10pts while adding more Warders with the exact same statline cost 15pts!  That seems crazy.  How do I overcome this?  Why, run a 10-man squad of Warders, of course!  Instead of paying extra for more marines, I'll just leave it as is and enjoy.  If I want larger squads, then I'll use Breachers.  Which makes sense anyways - the larger breacher formations vs the more elite Warders.  

 

One more item: access to axes - while nice - seems a little overrated.  Since they are equipped with the boarding shield they never get an additional attack (except for charging of course, but then you forfeit the +1T from The Stone Gauntlet).  A single power axe attack per model doesn't exactly scream "arguably better" to me, unfortunately.  I'll probably still throw a few in there to add the threat factor, but I'm with you on there not being one "best" loadout.  Also, not to be argumentative, but when "maxed out" there is almost a 200-point gap between warders and breachers.  (4 special weapons each, 1/2 warders with axes.)

 

Ultimately, I think the squad size thing is what will help me overcome my disappointment with Warders.  Leaving them as a 10-man squad seems to be the most cost-effective, while staying in line with their fluff.  

[Nusquam]

That extra 5 points is from Shield Wall and access to better gear. Inversely you also get HoW when you charge instead of T5, then the next turn T5 comes back. Also S5 AP2 is strictly better than S4 AP-. Which will kill more marines.

 

They aren't the best possible 2.0 of Breachers but they do have merits over them, while Breachers have some over them too.

[Slips]

Also, as we've just found out in the Tactica Section: As per RAW, a unit with a Breacher Shield is counted as having defensive grenades meaning you can technically throw Blind grenades, en masse, at whats you are or is charging you.

 

Thread for those curious: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301474-boarding-shields-defensive-grenades/?do=findComment&comment=3910946

[Millicant]

Slipstreams, I posted over there too but until Forgeworld says otherwise, I have a hard time swallowing that one. I don't see any reason a marine with a boarding shield could throw a defensive grenade and cause a blind test. RAW yes there is an argument. I just don't think its a good one. I won't be playing them that way.

[Slips]

I did too: I think it comes down to the Wording.

 

Its stated as "Counts as being" instead of straight up "Are equipped with". Very subtle wording difference.

 

And lets be honest a 20 man breacher squad throwing 20 blind grenades? Seems a bit absurd. I won't be playing it that way either.

[Nusquam]

A note on the above: Only one model can throw a grenade per unit.

[Slips]

Well, its obvious that I don't use grenades all that much by my statement alone :p Thanks Nusquam.