Total Walker Attacks: Specialist & non-Specialist

[Jolemai]

In the latest Blood Angels Codex they have clarified the weapons on the Furioso Librarian Dreadnought. One arm has a Powerfist while the other has a Furioso Force Halberd, with the latter not being a Specialist Weapon. This has spawned a long-winded argument here on how many attacks he has in combat.

 

The Furioso Librarian has two base attacks. On the charge he will get +1 in the first round of combat, but what of any weapon bonuses? Specialist Weapon rules state that he wont get any more attacks, while the Walker rules state that when having two or more melee weapons, he gets +1 A after the first. Which takes precedence here?

 

Personally, I am of the opinion that the Specialist Weapon rule takes precedence as in this context, this is the advanced rule while the Walker rule is the basic one.

[bigted]

It seems to me that the dread will get another attack. Let me explain my reasoning. In this situation the dread is charging at a unit. 2 attacks base plus 1 for charging is three attacks. Then you check if the dread has an extra attack due to having 2 specialist weps or 2 normal ccw, which it doesn't as one wep is specialist and the other isn't. Finally, and on a completely unrelated note, you reference the rule which says that walkers get +1 attack for an extra ccw. The dread has 2 ccw (it doesn't matter that they're a mix of specialist and not) so it gets another attack. Of course, I will not attempt to explain this to my opponents before/during a game as the rule is quite open to interpretation and I can't be bothered arguing for a single extra attack .

[Dam13n]

There is nothing in the Walker rules that over-rides the rules of Specialist Weapons.  Therefore, unless both weapons equipped by the walker have the Specialist Weapon rule (or neither weapon has the Specialist Weapon rule) then the Walker will not gain +1 Attack for having 2 Melee Weapons.

 

(This has been discussed before, the focus being Defilers rather than Furioso Dreadnoughts.  Searchy is your friend...)

[Kristoff]

There is nothing in the Walker rules that over-rides the rules of Specialist Weapons.  Therefore, unless both weapons equipped by the walker have the Specialist Weapon rule (or neither weapon has the Specialist Weapon rule) then the Walker will not gain +1 Attack for having 2 Melee Weapons.

 

(This has been discussed before, the focus being Defilers rather than Furioso Dreadnoughts.  Searchy is your friend...)

Correct. It may have not been intended that way by the authors, they miss a lot of connections, but until an errata comes out saying otherwise, them's the rules as written.

[Jolemai]

In the thread I linked I even used the Defiler as an example... Thanks for the replies all the same.

[Remtek]

I honestly think GW just messed up here, since they merged blood fist and talons into str 10 talons and gave all dreads powerfists as base. It's a HQ close combat dread with 2 attacks? I'm sure they will FAQ this, but look's like it's only 2 attacks for the time being.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The dread gets its extra attack (Defilers too). The Specialist Weapon rules states that a model doesn't get +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless they both have the Specialist Weapon rule. That is in reference to normal models getting +1 Attack for having two CCW, as dictated on page 49. However, Dreadnoughts do not function thusly; instead they gain +1 Attack for each Melee weapons beyond the first. Ergo, the provisions of Specialist Weapon does not apply.

[Kristoff]

The dread gets its extra attack (Defilers too). The Specialist Weapon rules states that a model doesn't get +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless they both have the Specialist Weapon rule. That is in reference to normal models getting +1 Attack for having two CCW, as dictated on page 49. However, Dreadnoughts do not function thusly; instead they gain +1 Attack for each Melee weapons beyond the first. Ergo, the provisions of Specialist Weapon does not apply.

Not quite. Walkers still operate on the same principle, they just are not limited to just 1 Additional Attack. That is the only difference. Walkers are not allowed to override the Specialist clause because they cannot even get the first Additional Attack.

[librisrouge]

I'm actually on the fence but...where does it actually say that Kristoff? IIRC, Specialist Weapon specifies not getting the bonus attack for not having two weapons unless both have this rule. Walkers have a rule saying, basically, 'gets an extra attack for each weapon passed the first.' Paraphrased, of course, but that means a genuine argument could be made that these rules don't even intersect. Walkers abiding by their own rule only need to ask how many CCWs they have since they don't get extra attacks for having more than two, just any number more than one.

 

Just playing devil's advocate.

[Kristoff]

I'm actually on the fence but...where does it actually say that Kristoff? IIRC, Specialist Weapon specifies not getting the bonus attack for not having two weapons unless both have this rule. Walkers have a rule saying, basically, 'gets an extra attack for each weapon passed the first.' Paraphrased, of course, but that means a genuine argument could be made that these rules don't even intersect. Walkers abiding by their own rule only need to ask how many CCWs they have since they don't get extra attacks for having more than two, just any number more than one.

 

Just playing devil's advocate.

Read up on Additional Attack, then Walkers in Assault, then Specialist Weapon.

 

Walker rules basically say instead of getting just one attack no more, they can get more. Nothing about Specialist weapons is mentioned, ignored or still applied, so it stays applied.

 

Specialist Weapons say you can't get an extra attack from two weapons unless both are Specialist.

 

No matter how you work it, Specialist Weapon trait stops the first additional attack from occurring. Since there is no first, there can be no second. Simple math.

 

In the case of the Dreadnought, the point is still moot, as it IS two weapons providing the Additional Attack, and not like the numerous ones a Defiler can carry. So a Librarian still has to decide between Force or no Force.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Kristof, that is not what the rules say. You are making inferences. A dreadnought never gains +1A attack for fighting with two Melee weapons; it gains +1A for every Melee weapon after the first. Ergo, a rule that says you don't gain the +1A for fighting with 2 Melee weapons can't apply to a dread because it's not how they gain their bonus attacks.

[Remtek]

That would mean a normal Furioso has 5 attacks on the charge? 2 base, +1 dualwielding 2 specialist weapons and +1 for having more than one weapon.

 

They didt really write the specialist rule for Dreads, though it seems they would still apply. 

 

Edit:

 

And the dread rule is clearly intended for models with more than 2 close combat weapons. If only GW wrote what they meant :D

[Kristoff]

Kristof, that is not what the rules say. You are making inferences. A dreadnought never gains +1A attack for fighting with two Melee weapons; it gains +1A for every Melee weapon after the first. Ergo, a rule that says you don't gain the +1A for fighting with 2 Melee weapons can't apply to a dread because it's NOT HOW THEY GAIN THEIR BONUS ATTACKS.

Considering there is not a single Dreadnought that has access to more than close combat weapons, it is a stretch to say they do not get +1 Attack for having two weapons.

 

Specialist Weapons also doesn't say that this isn't cumulative for the same result, either.

 

Yes, the Specialist weapon type was obviously not written with Walkers in mind. But it is not written that Walkers are exempt from it any more than they are exempt from firing Ordnance causing Snap-Fire for them.

[Remtek]

Really needs a FAQ, glad i have no plans on using them in the near future. Would be eaiser if they included bonus attacks on his profile like in the old dex. 

[elithren]

Deff dread would like a word with you.

[Deschenus Maximus]

That would mean a normal Furioso has 5 attacks on the charge? 2 base, +1 dualwielding 2 specialist weapons and +1 for having more than one weapon.

They didt really write the specialist rule for Dreads, though it seems they would still apply.

Edit:

And the dread rule is clearly intended for models with more than 2 close combat weapons. If only GW wrote what they meant

I'm not sure where you're getting the +1 for dualwielding spec weapons.

Considering there is not a single Dreadnought that has access to more than close combat weapons, it is a stretch to say they do not get +1 Attack for having two weapons.

It's not a stretch - it's Rules as Written (RAW). You may think it's wrong, you may think it makes no sense, but that's how the rule is written - dreads get an extra attack not because they are dualwielding; they are getting an extra attack because they have an additional Melee weapon. Simple.

Specialist Weapons also doesn't say that this isn't cumulative for the same result, either.

It doesn't because it doesn't need to. If GW had intended for SW to appy to Walkers, the SW rule would have specificaly mentioned it. Something like "Note that a Walker receives no bonus attacks for extra Melee weapons unless they are all Specialist Weapons or none of them are."

Yes, the Specialist weapon type was obviously not written with Walkers in mind. But it is not written that Walkers are exempt from it any more than they are exempt from firing Ordnance causing Snap-Fire for them.

What exempts them is the way they gain extra Attacks. There is no need to actually spell it out.

Comments in red.

[Kristoff]

It's not a stretch - it's Rules as Written (RAW). You may think it's wrong, you may think it makes no sense, but that's how the rule is written - dreads get an extra attack not because they are dualwielding; they are getting an extra attack because they have an additional Melee weapon. Simple.

You missed the point. No Dreadnought can have more than two close combat weapons of any type (To an earlier poster: Deff Dread is NOT a Dreadnought). They receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons, no more, because they cannot carry more legally.

 

Specialist weapon literally says: "A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

The Specialist weapon doesn't care if it is a Walker, unlike Unwieldy. Walkers do not state that they ignore the Specialist Weapon rule.

 

Specialist Weapons can only receive bonuses when they are combined with other Specialist Weapons, period.

 

It doesn't because it doesn't need to. If GW had intended for SW to appy to Walkers, the SW rule would have specificaly mentioned it. Something like "Note that a Walker receives no bonus attacks for extra Melee weapons unless they are all Specialist Weapons or none of them are."

It doesn't need to state that Walkers are included, because it is already included by the virtue of the "unless it is armed with two or more" part and by it NOT being excluded by either Unit Type or USR.

 

What exempts them is the way they gain extra Attacks. There is no need to actually spell it out.

 

They gain them the same way anyone else does, by adding more close combat weapons than one. The only difference is that Walkers can stack this bonus while no one else can, period. It's not even listed as a separate rule, just mentioned in passing as part of the Assault rules.

 

Just because they can get more does not make them exempt from Specialist Weapons without explicit permission. Just like they cannot fire all weapons without explicit permission (which they do, twice), nor move 12" in Movement without explicit permission (which one does), nor Zoom without explicit permission (I don't think one does).

[Venemox]

So, the defiler with two Power Fists (Specialist) and a Power Scourge (not specialist) bypasses the Specialist Weapon rule, since the Specailist Weapon rule speaks only to a +1 bonus for fighting with 'two weapons', and the flail is weapon number 3?

 

The +1 attack for dual wielding weapons, or specialist weapon, applies to all models capable of wielding melee weapons.  Walkers gain a separate, different way to gain bonus attacks.  These overlap, but do not conflict. 

 

Another way to look at this is how specialized the rules are:  Attacking (all models) > Dual Wielding (all models capable of getting two melee weapons) > Specialist Weapons (all models capable of getting specialist weapons) > Walker bonus attacks (walkers capable of assaulting AND getting two melee weapons).

[Kristoff]

So, the defiler with two Power Fists (Specialist) and a Power Scourge (not specialist) bypasses the Specialist Weapon rule, since the Specailist Weapon rule speaks only to a +1 bonus for fighting with 'two weapons', and the flail is weapon number 3?

 

Depends on which weapon is being used. Specialist Weapons still do not allow +1 Attacks from having two weapons unless that weapon is another Specialist Weapon. The Flail is not Specialist, so cannot provide an additional attack when using Power Fists, as the Power Fists won't accept it.

 

The +1 attack for dual wielding weapons, or specialist weapon, applies to all models capable of wielding melee weapons.  Walkers gain a separate, different way to gain bonus attacks.  These overlap, but do not conflict.

No, they don't get them in a different way. This is not like Rampage or Rage, this is about additional weapons granting additional attacks, which Specialist Weapons restrict. The only difference is how far the bonus goes, nothing else. The Walker rule isn't even separated out in bold, just a quick paragraph on how it works with notes on how Weapon Destroyed results affect them.

 

Another way to look at this is how specialized the rules are:  Attacking (all models) > Dual Wielding (all models capable of getting two melee weapons) > Specialist Weapons (all models capable of getting specialist weapons) > Walker bonus attacks (walkers capable of assaulting AND getting two melee weapons).

And where does it say that the Specialist Weapon rules are superseded by the Walker's rules? I can't seem to find it in the Walker's rules or the USR's. At best, the Walker's rules are a modification of a basic rule, nothing else.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

It's not a stretch - it's Rules as Written (RAW). You may think it's wrong, you may think it makes no sense, but that's how the rule is written - dreads get an extra attack not because they are dualwielding; they are getting an extra attack because they have an additional Melee weapon. Simple.

You missed the point. No Dreadnought can have more than two close combat weapons of any type (To an earlier poster: Deff Dread is NOT a Dreadnought). They receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons, no more, because they cannot carry more legally.

 

Specialist weapon literally says: "A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

The Specialist weapon doesn't care if it is a Walker, unlike Unwieldy. Walkers do not state that they ignore the Specialist Weapon rule.

 

Specialist Weapons can only receive bonuses when they are combined with other Specialist Weapons, period.

 

 Let's spell out the SW rule completely:

 

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive the +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

Does a Walker equiped with more than two Melee weapons gain a single Attack? No, it gains several. Ergo, its clear that the SW rule does not apply because they CAN'T. They don't intersect. For it to work, it would have needed to be written thusly: "A model fighting with this weapon does not receive any bonus Attacks for fighting with two or more weapons unless it is only armed with Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule.

 

It doesn't because it doesn't need to. If GW had intended for SW to appy to Walkers, the SW rule would have specificaly mentioned it. Something like "Note that a Walker receives no bonus attacks for extra Melee weapons unless they are all Specialist Weapons or none of them are."

It doesn't need to state that Walkers are included, because it is already included by the virtue of the "unless it is armed with two or more" part and by it NOT being excluded by either Unit Type or USR.

 

The part you quoted is actualy proof that they ARE excluded, because unlike a normal model, Walkers don't gain a single Attack when equiped with more than one Melee weapon - they gain several.

 

Comments in red.

[librisrouge]

Quoting Maximus:

Let's spell out the SW rule completely:

 

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive the +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

Wait, wait, wait...if that is the rule then why are we even arguing. When I'm fighting with the force halberd I'm not fighting with the power fist. I get the +1 Attack then. If I chose to fight with the fist (why?) I do not. You're not actually fighting with two weapons in the rules. You're fighting with one and having another. The SW rule applies to weapons, not models.

[Quixus]

That is a good point. The new codex solved that problem. With the previous the force weapon did not get S x2 AP 2 force, but used the normal rules for force weapons, so at best you had S 7 AP 2 force (with an axe/halberd). Then there was a reason to attack with the power fist.

[Teetengee]

Would that also mean that defilers get more attacks depending on which weapons they are actually using? (i.e. they get the full complement only if they use only non specialist weapons?)

[librisrouge]

It would seem that way to me, assuming that quote of the SW rule is accurate (I really wish my copy of the main book wasn't packed up right now.)

[Kristoff]

Let's spell out the SW rule completely:

 

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive the +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

Does a Walker equiped with more than two Melee weapons gain a single Attack? No, it gains several. Ergo, its clear that the SW rule does not apply because they CAN'T. They don't intersect. For it to work, it would have needed to be written thusly: "A model fighting with this weapon does not receive any bonus Attacks for fighting with two or more weapons unless it is only armed with Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule.

You are still missing the part where to get a bonus attack of any kind with a Specialist Weapon by quantity of weapons, they have to be Specialist Weapons, too.

 

The part you quoted is actualy proof that they ARE excluded, because unlike a normal model, Walkers don't gain a single Attack when equiped with more than one Melee weapon - they gain several.

No, they don't. They gain one for each weapon beyond the first, but it is still a +1 Attack per weapon, each additional one being paired with the first, and you still need two or more Specialist Weapons to gain even one bonus Attack with them.

 

Specialist Weapons reference no rule directly, just a condition. The Walker rule does not have a name to exclude, just a condition. The +1 Attack rule doesn't really have a name, per se, but is listed as a condition as well.