Total Walker Attacks: Specialist & non-Specialist

[Dam13n]

Whether you are using the weapon's profile, or just using the weapon in for support for +1 attack, you are still fighting with that weapon.

 

So regardless of whether you are using the Force Weapon or the Power Fist's profile, you are still fighting with 1 specialist weapon and 1 non-specialist weapon.  So you don't get +1 attack for having 2 melee weapons due to the Specialist Weapon rule.

[Kristoff]

Whether you are using the weapon's profile, or just using the weapon in for support for +1 attack, you are still fighting with that weapon.

 

So regardless of whether you are using the Force Weapon or the Power Fist's profile, you are still fighting with 1 specialist weapon and 1 non-specialist weapon. So you don't get +1 attack for having 2 melee weapons due to the Specialist Weapon rule.

The Specialist Weapon only cares if you are using it. Non-Specialist weapons don't care if another is Specialist, nor do Specialist Weapons care if they are second fiddle.

[Quozzo]

You guys are quoting the wrong rule.

If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a Walker with three Melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks.

No specialist weapons are mentioned, and unlike the rule intended for infantry (below), this rule clarifies that a defiler would get more than one extra attack for more than one extra weapon.

 

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule

A defiler simply defies this rule just by the number of weapons it is wielding, this rule is not intended for walkers. Hell, even if it was, there is nothing to prevent it either so it would be cumulative with the above rule. If it was intended for walkers, then the rule above would state that "it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the second".

 

You missed the point. No Dreadnought can have more than two close combat weapons of any type (To an earlier poster: Deff Dread is NOT a Dreadnought). They receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons, no more, because they cannot carry more legally.

Dreadnoughts cant have more than two weapons. But this is about "walkers", there is no "dreadnought" rule. Defilers are walkers and can carry 3 CCW.

[Dam13n]

Submitted to the GW FAQ team for consideration.

[Quixus]

Dreadnoughts cant have more than one weapon.

Where does it say that? The standard load out for a furioso or DC dreadnought is one power fist with built in storm bolter and one power fist with built in meltagun. The standard and only load out for a librarian dreadnought is a furioso force halberd and a power fist with built in storm bolter.

[Quozzo]

Whoops, meant more than one extra weapon. Changed. Thanks.

[Kristoff]

 

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule

A defiler simply defies this rule just by the number of weapons it is wielding, this rule is not intended for walkers. Hell, even if it was, there is nothing to prevent it either so it would be cumulative with the above rule. If it was intended for walkers, then the rule above would state that "it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the second".

 

It's a modification of the rule, not a defiance of it.

 

 

You missed the point. No Dreadnought can have more than two close combat weapons of any type (To an earlier poster: Deff Dread is NOT a Dreadnought). They receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons, no more, because they cannot carry more legally.

Dreadnoughts cant have more than two weapons. But this is about "walkers", there is no "dreadnought" rule. Defilers are walkers and can carry 3 CCW.

 

The OP was about Dreadnought, particularly the Librarian Dreadnought.

 

Now, check with my earlier post:

{I}t is still a +1 Attack per weapon, each additional one being paired with the first, and you still need two or more Specialist Weapons to gain even one bonus Attack with them.

 

Specialist Weapons reference no rule directly, just a condition. The Walker rule does not have a name to exclude, just a condition. The +1 Attack rule doesn't really have a name, per se, but is listed as a condition as well.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Kristof, I think the issue is that we both have a different way of looking at the rules. You read them in a literary manner, while I look at them in a computational manner. I'm afraid that we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

[Kristoff]

Kristof, I think the issue is that we both have a different way of looking at the rules. You read them in a literary manner, while I look at them in a computational manner. I'm afraid that we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Actually, I DO view them in a computational manner, but the languages we use seem to read them differently, such as between C and Pascal.

 

What I see is Specialist Weapon running a check to see if any companion weapons are Specialist as well before adding any Attack bonus. If condition applies, it adds the Attack bonus, if not, it doesn't.

[Quixus]

What I see is Specialist Weapon running a check to see if any companion weapons are Specialist as well before adding any Attack bonus. If condition applies, it adds the Attack bonus, if not, it doesn't.

The question is whether "fighting with this weapon" includes using it to gain an extra attack with another weapon or not. Combined with this rule:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

I'm inclined to say that "fighting with this weapon" only includes using the weapon's profile in the attacks.

So yeah a model with a pwoer fist and a power sword would get one more S user AP 3 attack than it has S x2 AP2 attacks IMHO. It is hardly clear so an official word from GW would be appreciated.

[Kristoff]

The question is whether "fighting with this weapon" includes using it to gain an extra attack with another weapon or not. Combined with this rule:

 

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

I'm inclined to say that "fighting with this weapon" only includes using the weapon's profile in the attacks.

So yeah a model with a pwoer fist and a power sword would get one more S user AP 3 attack than it has S x2 AP2 attacks IMHO. It is hardly clear so an official word from GW would be appreciated.

"Fighting with a weapon" is pretty well laid out. You can use only one melee weapon's stats and abilities in the Assault Phase.

 

The Specialist Weapon, if used, checks to see if any other Specialist Weapons are on the model and applies a bonus as the case pertains.

 

Regular melee weapons do not perform such a check, nor do Specialist Weapons prevent it.

 

A Sergeant with a BP and PF would gain an Attack when using the Pistol, but not with the Fist.

[Quozzo]

 

 

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule

A defiler simply defies this rule just by the number of weapons it is wielding, this rule is not intended for walkers. Hell, even if it was, there is nothing to prevent it either so it would be cumulative with the above rule. If it was intended for walkers, then the rule above would state that "it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the second".

 

It's a modification of the rule, not a defiance of it.

 

If it was a modification then it would have the change I suggested because it currently works all by itself. You assume that both rules somehow relate to one another because they're pretty much the same thing, giving extra attacks in CC, but the are completely separate entities that do not reference one another, do not cancel one another out and do not overwrite one another.

 

I have to ask. (although it seems like your avoiding the defiler for this very reason) but how many attacks would a defiler get with 3 power fists?

[Kristoff]

If it was a modification then it would have the change I suggested because it currently works all by itself. You assume that both rules somehow relate to one another because they're pretty much the same thing, giving extra attacks in CC, but the are completely separate entities that do not reference one another, do not cancel one another out and do not overwrite one another.

Actually the Walker and Specialist rules both reference the +1 Attack condition, they just don't reference each other, aside from changing how they are used under those considerations.

 

I have to ask. (although it seems like your avoiding the defiler for this very reason) but how many attacks would a defiler get with 3 power fists?

The OP is about the Dreadnought, that's why.

 

But keep in mind, Specialist Weapons require other Specialist Weapons to gain any Attack bonus, so +2 Attacks. But unless that Flail has the Specialist rule, it would not provide a Bonus when using the Fists.

[Quozzo]

Only the special weapon rule references the +1 attack rule. The walker rule doesnt reference it, instead it explicitly states they gain an extra attack for every extra weapon.

 

Also the title is called "Total walker attacks". The examples given are about various dreadnoughts but the rule in question is not explicity limited to dreadnoughts. If the defiler gains 2 extra attacks then it must have ignored the special weapon rule becuase it states that a model can only receive +1 attack for more than two weapons with the special weapon rule.

[Kristoff]

Only the special weapon rule references the +1 attack rule. The walker rule doesnt reference it, instead it explicitly states they gain an extra attack for every extra weapon.

 

Also the title is called "Total walker attacks". The examples given are about various dreadnoughts but the rule in question is not explicity limited to dreadnoughts. If the defiler gains 2 extra attacks then it must have ignored the special weapon rule becuase it states that a model can only receive +1 attack for more than two weapons with the special weapon rule.

Um, no. It's been quoted here many times already, but one more time:

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule.

 

WALKERS AND ASSAULTS

...

If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a Walker with three Melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks. If one of its additional Melee weapons is destroyed, one bonus Attack is lost. If the destroyed weapon is a Dreadnought close combat weapon, the Walker loses the bonuses conferred by that Dreadnought close combat weapon.

Total Walker Attacks doesn't exist in the digital book I have. I'll try to look it up in my hardcover when I go out to my car again, but I doubt I'll find it there.

 

The Defiler comes armed with two Power Fists already and can add a third. This would have applied even in 5th when they had to be the same weapon, not just all Specialist. Now, the Specialist Rule just says it cannot receive +1 Attack unless it is armed with two or more Specialist Weapons. Those have been fulfilled using the same verbage as referenced in "Number Of Attacks" and in "Walkers and Assaults". The Specialist Weapon rule is a gateway blocking a condition unless it is applied.

[Jolemai]

I see it as there being an list of checks we make.

 

Basic:

~ A model in combat with two close combat weapons has +1 A

 

What is the model? A Walker. So:

~ A Walker adds +1 for each close combat weapon it has

 

Then we check to see what the weapon confers. If the weapon has the Specialist Weapon rule, it needs a paired weapon to gain the extra attack.

~ If A Defiler has three Power Fists and a Power Scourge, it will only ever get +2 A despite having three extra weapons because the Power Scourge lacks the Specialist Weapon USR

 

Regarding the Furioso Librarian Dreadnought, it therefore wont gain a bonus attack from having two close combat weapons as one it not Specialist.

[Quixus]

What happens if the defiler uses the profile of the power scourge in close combat? Is he still fighting with the power fist in this case?

[Jolemai]

Honestly, I don't think anyone does unless they have no Power Fists left! Merely equipping one is enough to allow the Flail rule to work.

 

If they were to, it would probably be the same amount of attacks. A model with a Power Sword and Power Fist has the same number of attacks regardless of what weapon he uses after all. Unless I am very much mistaken there.

[Kristoff]

What happens if the defiler uses the profile of the power scourge in close combat? Is he still fighting with the power fist in this case?

 

No, he is not fighting with the power fists, officially. By that I mean that no rules on the power fists may apply, including the Specialist Weapon. So with 3 Power Fists and the Scourge, using the Scourge, apply the rules of Flail and +3 Attacks. A LITTLE better at fighting hordes, especially low toughness ones. If they have a decent WS, even better.

 

Remember, the Specialist Weapon only blocks the Attack bonus when that weapon is used.

 

Honestly, I don't think anyone does unless they have no Power Fists left! Merely equipping one is enough to allow the Flail rule to work.

 

If they were to, it would probably be the same amount of attacks. A model with a Power Sword and Power Fist has the same number of attacks regardless of what weapon he uses after all. Unless I am very much mistaken there.

No, the Flail rule can only be used when using the Scourge. A Power Fist does not gain Shred when paired with a Lightning Claw, nor does a Bolt Pistol gain Concussive when paired with a Chaplain's Crozuis (though, why you would use a pistol instead of the Crozius, I don't know).

 

This is under the rules for "More Than One Weapon" in the Weapons section, you don't mix and match rules of weapons.

[Jolemai]

I am fully aware that a Power First would not gain Shred from a Lightning Claw, etc, nor am I saying it does.

 

RAW you only have to be in combat with a thing armed with a Power Scourge, not using it but this is an isolated case.

[Quixus]

 

What happens if the defiler uses the profile of the power scourge in close combat? Is he still fighting with the power fist in this case?

 

No, he is not fighting with the power fists, officially. By that I mean that no rules on the power fists may apply, including the Specialist Weapon. So with 3 Power Fists and the Scourge, using the Scourge, apply the rules of Flail and +3 Attacks. A LITTLE better at fighting hordes, especially low toughness ones. If they have a decent WS, even better.

 

Remember, the Specialist Weapon only blocks the Attack bonus when that weapon is used.

 

I would have preferred an answer from Jolemai. Anyways, if this is the case, the Furioso Librarian Dreadnought gets an extra attack as long as he is using the Force Halberd instead of the power fist, which Jolemai denied. BTW there is no more reason to use the fist because both weapons have the same profile, except for Specialist Weapon and Unwieldy (which doesn't apply to vehicles anyways).

[Kristoff]

I am fully aware that a Power First would not gain Shred from a Lightning Claw, etc, nor am I saying it does.

 

RAW you only have to be in combat with a thing armed with a Power Scourge, not using it but this is an isolated case.

No, it is not an isolated case. They are exactly the same thing. You cannot mix and match the rules of weapons, you use the rules of one weapon when generating Attacks.

 

If the Flail rule was listed not as part of the type of the weapon, but part of the equipment, then yes, they would apply (see grenades as an example), but it is listed as a trait of the weapon, so it doesn't apply unless the weapon is in play, just like the Power Fist's Specialist Weapon's rule.

[Jolemai]

 

 

Flail: lf one or more enemy models are in base contact
with a model with a Flail weapon at the beginning of the
Fight sub-phase, roll a D3 and subtract the result from the
Weapon Skill of those models (to a minimum of I ) for the
duration of that phase.

 

This is completely different from Shred, Two-handed, etc. Merely having it equips triggers the effect. If it only worked when you used the weapon it would be too late to apply the effect. Or do we have a similar retroactive affect like we do when a Leman Russ wants to fire it's Battlecannon last?

[Quozzo]

 

Only the special weapon rule references the +1 attack rule. The walker rule doesnt reference it, instead it explicitly states they gain an extra attack for every extra weapon.

 

Also the title is called "Total walker attacks". The examples given are about various dreadnoughts but the rule in question is not explicity limited to dreadnoughts. If the defiler gains 2 extra attacks then it must have ignored the special weapon rule becuase it states that a model can only receive +1 attack for more than two weapons with the special weapon rule.

Um, no. It's been quoted here many times already, but one more time:

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule.

 

I know the quote, I wasnt talking about that one. My argument is that the walker rule (that you quoted below) doesn't reference it.

 

 

WALKERS AND ASSAULTS

...

If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a Walker with three Melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks. If one of its additional Melee weapons is destroyed, one bonus Attack is lost. If the destroyed weapon is a Dreadnought close combat weapon, the Walker loses the bonuses conferred by that Dreadnought close combat weapon.

Total Walker Attacks doesn't exist in the digital book I have. I'll try to look it up in my hardcover when I go out to my car again, but I doubt I'll find it there.

 

The part I underlined is the same language used as the previous rule which denotes that models gain additional attacks. It doesn't reference the previous rule. It states it does not apply like it does for infantry.

[Teetengee]

 

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule.

 

 

WALKERS AND ASSAULTS
...
If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a Walker with three Melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks. If one of its additional Melee weapons is destroyed, one bonus Attack is lost. If the destroyed weapon is a Dreadnought close combat weapon, the Walker loses the bonuses conferred by that Dreadnought close combat weapon.

 

 

Ok so speaking of the above, RAW it appears to be this:
Some walker has a specialist weapon and a regular weapon.
It gets +1 attack except if it fights with the specialist weapon (see rule 1)

The defiler has 3 power fists and a power scourge:
It would get +1 attack for multiple ccw. Except it is a walker, so it would get +3 attacks for having three melee weapons after the first.
Except (again) that if it fights with the specialist weapons it checks the specialist weapon rule. The question that rule asks is this: is the model armed with two or more specialist weapons. The answer is yes (it has 3 power fists). Therefore it does receive the bonus attack from multiple close combat weapons, which is further modified to +3 because of the walker rule. (And since the walker is armed with 2 or more specialist weapons regardless of which weapons it fights with, it will always get +3 attacks no matter weapon choice.)

TLDR: RAW, it appears to me that as long as the character is armed with 2 or more specialist weapons it has the same number of attacks as if it had all specialist, (or no specialist) weapons. If a character fights with the non specialist weapon only, it also is given the extra attack(s). Only if a character has only 1 specialist weapon and only if the character fights with that weapon* does that character not gain an extra attack for an extra ccw.

*I would argue that fights with should be taken to mean uses the profile of because of the wording of the multiple special close combat weapons rule, but I concede that such may not have been conclusively proven. Thus I suggest we figure out exactly what is meant by fight with before we return to the conversation of multiple attacks.