Total Walker Attacks: Specialist & non-Specialist

[Deschenus Maximus]

So can we all agree that at a strict minimum, a Libby dread does get an extra attack as long as its using its force halberd as its CC weapon rather than its power fist?

[Quozzo]

That would be a tall order. Apparently its ok for walkers to ignore unwieldy and fight with an AP2 Strength 8+ weapon at initiative, but it cant get another attack because... reasons.

[Kristoff]

So can we all agree that at a strict minimum, a Libby dread does get an extra attack as long as its using its force halberd as its CC weapon rather than its power fist?

That follows the rules for it.

 

Still, as Quozzo said, it's odd that Walkers can ignore Unwieldy, but not Specialist weapons. I can see how using a Lightning Claw and Pistol could be hard for a human (much less Power Fist and Hammer), modified or not, but that doesn't necessarily apply to a giant humanoid machine, especially since Specialist Weapons are as much a part of their general equipment as Unwieldy weapons are.

 

*shrug* GW rules don't always make sense.

 

*I would argue that fights with should be taken to mean uses the profile of because of the wording of the multiple special close combat weapons rule, but I concede that such may not have been conclusively proven. Thus I suggest we figure out exactly what is meant by fight with before we return to the conversation of multiple attacks.

This would be the interpretation I see.

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON

Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

[Quixus]

Unfortunately that does not say that attacking with one weapon is equal to fighting with this weapon. It does not say the opposite either. While you can attack solely with say a baton, using only the baton (i.e. not using any parts of your body) in a fight will make you a very ineffective combatant.

 

We will need clarification from GW.

[Kristoff]

Unfortunately that does not say that attacking with one weapon is equal to fighting with this weapon. It does not say the opposite either. While you can attack solely with say a baton, using only the baton (i.e. not using any parts of your body) in a fight will make you a very ineffective combatant.

 

We will need clarification from GW.

Well, just to use basic common sense (I know, this is GW we're talking about), it's kind of hard to be fighting with a weapon that literally does not apply all of it's abilities to the fight.

[Teetengee]

I figured fight with was game jargon, rather than meant to be taken literally.

[Quixus]

Well, just to use basic common sense (I know, this is GW we're talking about), it's kind of hard to be fighting with a weapon that literally does not apply all of it's abilities to the fight.

Well the model must do something with the additional weapon in a fight, otherwise it would not get one more attack than without it. That could be called fighting. Someone using sword and shield in combat is also usually referred to as fighting with sword and shield even though the primary source of damage is the sword.

 

I agree with you that it would make sense to only count the damage dealing weapon, but it is not clear IMHO.

[Spinsanity]

Not sure I understand why everyone insists the scourge wouldn't give +1 attack to a defiler...

 

The rule sais a specialist weapon gives +1 as lng as at least 2 of the weapons are SWs, but doesn't otherwise require that all other weapons be SAws too. In the case of the defiler, as long as two fists remain, the restriction remains (two of the weapons are SWs) so all weapons should be able to give their respective +1A, no?

[Kristoff]

It's more that the Power Fist doesn't gain one Attack from the Scourge...

[Spinsanity]

It's more that the Power Fist doesn't gain one Attack from the Scourge...

once again, why?

 

As long as at least two of the Defiler's weapons are fists, why doesn't the scourge give an extra attack too? Which part of the rule says it doesn't?

[Kristoff]

 

It's more that the Power Fist doesn't gain one Attack from the Scourge...

once again, why?

 

As long as at least two of the Defiler's weapons are fists, why doesn't the scourge give an extra attack too? Which part of the rule says it doesn't?

As I stated earlier, from a procedural point of view, the Specialist Weapon runs a check against it's companion weapon to see if it also is Specialist before gaining +1 Attack from it.

[Spinsanity]

No, the Specialist Weapon simply requires that at least two of the weapons be SWs.

 

A Defiler armed with two PFists and a scourge does meet that requirement, so why wouldn't it get +1 A from the Scourge?

[Kristoff]

No, the Specialist Weapon simply requires that at least two of the weapons be SWs.

 

A Defiler armed with two PFists and a scourge does meet that requirement, so why wouldn't it get +1 A from the Scourge?

It also says they only get one, not multiple.

[Spinsanity]

Which, as pointed out earlier, gives some (little) credence to the theory that this was never meant to apply to walkers...

[Teetengee]

Or it does apply and then the walker rule comes into play, and the 1 becomes more than 1.

[Kristoff]

Which, as pointed out earlier, gives some (little) credence to the theory that this was never meant to apply to walkers...

Then they should have kept them with DCCWs, shouldn't they?

[Spinsanity]

I wonder why DCCWs exist at all... Which Codex did they last appear in? And are there 7th ed codice that refer to DCCWs?

[Kristoff]

I wonder why DCCWs exist at all... Which Codex did they last appear in? And are there 7th ed codice that refer to DCCWs?

They still exist, rules-wise. I think Blood Angels was the last codex to actually refer to it in the Blood Fist rules.

 

In some cases they even gave a DCCW to Monstrous Creatures.

[Spinsanity]

 

I wonder why DCCWs exist at all... Which Codex did they last appear in? And are there 7th ed codice that refer to DCCWs?

They still exist, rules-wise. I think Blood Angels was the last codex to actually refer to it in the Blood Fist rules.In some cases they even gave a DCCW to Monstrous Creatures.

the currect BA dex doesn't mention Blood Fists or DCCWs, using Power Fists in all instances instead...

 

Except for backward compatibility, I don't see why they even exist anymore :/

 

But back to the controversy regarding Specialist Weapons and walkers, even though I'm inclined to believe the rule was not meant to be applicable to walkers, it seems that they (walkers, dreads, etc) are affected. So any walker either needs 2 Specialist Weapons or more, or neither (that is, anything but a single one) for their extra attacks to count in full.

 

I still fail to see any reason for a Defiler with two PFists to not get an extra attack for having a scourge; the rule says he gets his extra attacks as long as he has two or more SWs (which he does in that case).

 

+ Edit : Corrected that ladt paragraph; wrote the opposite of what I meant by forgetting a not in there...

[Quixus]

I still fail to see any reason for a Defiler with two PFists to get an extra weapon for having a scourge; the rule says he gets his extra attacks as long as he has two or more SWs (which he does in that case).

Because the walker rule says that a walker gets an extra attack for each weapon after the first. So two power fists and a scourge would generate at least 2 extra attacks, because the walker has 3 weapons.

[Spinsanity]

Because the walker rule says that a walker gets an extra attack for each weapon after the first. So two power fists and a scourge would generate at least 2 extra attacks, because the walker has 3 weapons.

Yeah, just fixed my post above... That's exactly what I meant; I still don't see why some insist the scourge doesn't give +1A because it's not a Specialist Weapon; the rule says he needs two or more SWs to get the extra A, which is already fulfilled by the two fists...

 

+ Edit : damned iPad virtual keyboard...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I follow.

 

If you have a power fist and a power maul, and attack with the maul, you get +1 attack for the power fist despite Specialist Weapon because why again...?

 

Give it to me in Captain Dummy speak, as that's how I'll likely have to relay it to others in the future.

[Quixus]

It's because it is unclear whether "fighting with a specialist weapon" only refers to using the profile of the specialist weapon in the assault phase or if it also any usage of the specialist weapon in the assault phase (i.e. providing extra attacks with another profile). In the former interpretation you are not fighting with a specialist weapon and thus the SW rule does not apply, in the latter you are and thus you do not get the extra attack because the maul is not a specialist weapon.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I thought the latter case was the default: If you have a specialist weapon, get another one, or don't get the extra attack.

[Quixus]

I thought the latter case was the default: If you have a specialist weapon, get another one, or don't get the extra attack.

The problem is that you can only ever attack with one weapon (i.e. use one profile), no matter how many different ones you may have or how many bonus attacks you receive. The SW rule requires you to be fighting with an SW to perform the check whether your additional weapon is a SW, but it is never defined what fighting with a weapon means. It could mean the same as attacking with an SW or gaining an extra attack with another weapon could be sufficient.