Total Walker Attacks: Specialist & non-Specialist

[Deschenus Maximus]

Good god GW are terrible at rules-writing... and to say they do this as their full-time job... baffling...

[vahouth]

So let me get this straight...

A Defiler armed with 2 power fists and a scourge, get +1 attack thanks to specialist weapons rule for the 2 fists, and +2 attacks for each melee weapon after the first, for a total of +3 attacks. Right?

Unless those two rules are mutually exclusive somehow.

[Ming]

Hmmm...I was noodling this out the other day...I have a DC Dreadnought...2 claws....so IIUC I'd have base 2, plus 1 for the dual claws, plus 2 on the charge for rage for a total of 5 (on the charge), and just 3 on subsequent turns?....it also has Furious Charge, but that does not help as he is maxed on S already.  In the correct BA formation, he could get +1I...and there are other ways to beef him up more...is that sort of the sum of this thread?

[Dam13n]

Ming - not really.  The point of this thread is "How do you determine the number of attacks when a Walker has a mixture of specialist and non-specialist melee weapons?" as opposed to "How can I maximise a Dreadnought?" (which would be a tactica discussion, rather than an OR discussion)

 

A DC Dread cannot have a mixture of non-specialist and specialist weapons as both Power Fists and Blood Talons are specialist weapons...

 

A Librarian Furioso, on the other hand, has a Power Fist (specialist) and a Force Halberd (non-specialist), so is relevant to this discussion.

[Kristoff]

So let me get this straight...

A Defiler armed with 2 power fists and a scourge, get +1 attack thanks to specialist weapons rule for the 2 fists, and +2 attacks for each melee weapon after the first, for a total of +3 attacks. Right?

Unless those two rules are mutually exclusive somehow.

It depends on which weapon you were using in Assault. Remember, unlike the guns, a Walker still can only use one melee-type weapon in the Assault Phase.

 

If a Fist, than any other Fist or Specialist Weapon on the rig would add an Attack (so, +1). If the Scourge, than ANY other melee weapon on the model would add an Attack (so, +2).

[Spinsanity]

It depends on which weapon you were using in Assault. Remember, unlike the guns, a Walker still can only use one melee-type weapon in the Assault Phase.

 

If a Fist, than any other Fist or Specialist Weapon on the rig would add an Attack (so, +1). If the Scourge, than ANY other melee weapon on the model would add an Attack (so, +2).

Once again, why would the scourge not give an extra attack when he fights with a Fist?

 

+ Edit : Just to be clear here, the SW rule states that a model does not get +1A for being armed with an extra weapon unless he is armed ith 2 or more SW. Since he has 2 fists, he DOES meet that requirement. The rule does not say he gets +1A for every SW, only that he needs at least 2 to get the extra attack...

[Kristoff]

Once again, why would the scourge not give an extra attack when he fights with a Fist?

 

+ Edit : Just to be clear here, the SW rule states that a model does not get +1A for being armed with an extra weapon unless he is armed ith 2 or more SW. Since he has 2 fists, he DOES meet that requirement. The rule does not say he gets +1A for every SW, only that he needs at least 2 to get the extra attack...

Because it only gets +1 and the Walker rule doesn't override it? Because a Power Fist with a Scourge side does not provide +1 Attack?

 

Pick a reason, both technically fit.

[Spinsanity]

So, are you saying the max number of extra attacks a defiler can get if he fights with a Power Fist, is 1?

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons..."

 

According to you, he can never claim a +2 bonus for being armed with more than two CCWs; so why would anyone ever change the defiler's Reaper Autocannon for a third fist? Protection against weapon destroyed results? Seriously?

 

The Defiler gets +1A per extra CCW beyond the first. He starts with 2 (+1), can get a third fist (+2) and can even get a Scourge (+3). Since he DOES meet the "fighting with 2 or more specialist weapons" requirements, nothing in the SW rule prevents him from claiming the +1 for the scourge too.

 

Unless, once again, he can't claim the +1 for the third fist either...

 

Besides, he's not fighting with 2 weapons, he's fighting with 4...

[Kristoff]

Actually, according to the rule, not according to me.

 

The Specialist rule says a weapon with this rule cannot gain +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Specialist Weapons. In other words, it checks to see if the "other" weapon is Specialist before gaining Attacks. The Dreadnought's rule does absolutely nothing to override this.

 

However, a Scourge, as a non-Specialist weapon just doesn't care about that, and so gains the full benefit of any rules it has.

 

Also keep in mind the case that was presented. A Defiler with two Power Fists and a Scourge. Not in question was how many when the number of Power Fists was maximized, just the case in point.

[vahouth]

@ Kristoff

I think he has a point. How can we tell which rule applies when we don't even know if they are mutually exclusive?

In the case of a maxed Defiler with 3 fists, he can only claim +1 for the 2 extra fists according to SW rule, while the dreadnought CCWs rule either overrides it or adds to it.

So what's the beef here?

Is it only +1 per SW, +2 per DCCW rule or +3 per both?

[Spinsanity]

Kristoff, I'll reitterate again, the rule for Specialist Weapon does not say "can claim an extra attack only if the extra weapon is also a specialist weapon", it says you can claim the +1 as long as you have at least two. The defiler does have 2, so claiming +1 A for the scourge works too.

 

Can he claim more than 1 extra attack? According the the walker rule, yes.

Can he claim an extra attack for the scourge? According to the SW rule, he can as long as he has at least two SWs. Which he does.

 

Which rule am I breaking exactly?

 

Besides, once again : does the SW rule even apply? He's NOT righting with two weapons, he's fighting with 4.

[Kristoff]

Kristoff, I'll reitterate again, the rule for Specialist Weapon does not say "can claim an extra attack only if the extra weapon is also a specialist weapon", it says you can claim the +1 as long as you have at least two. The defiler does have 2, so claiming +1 A for the scourge works too.

I'll reiterate again. The Scourge is NOT a Specialist Weapon, so unless a Power Fist and Scourge count as two or more Specialist Weapons, then they do not get a bonus Attack from THAT configuration.

 

Besides, once again : does the SW rule even apply? He's NOT righting with two weapons, he's fighting with 4.

You can only use one weapon in Assault, with no mixing and matching of rules, not four. To account for those models which have more than one melee weapon, a bonus Attack is granted.

 

In the case of Walkers, they can gain a bonus Attack for each additional weapon, and no mention of overriding the Specialist Weapon rule is made.

 

Specialist Weapons when used, only grant +1 Attack when they are paired with another Specialist Weapon or more. Walkers are not exempted in this rule.

 

So, pray tell, where does it specifically state that Walkers are exempt from the Specialist restrictions like they are from Unwieldy or one weapon per model?

[Spinsanity]

I'll reiterate again. The Scourge is NOT a Specialist Weapon, so unless a Power Fist and Scourge count as two or more Specialist Weapons, then they do not get a bonus Attack from THAT configuration.

Is the Defiler armed with two specialist weapons ? Yes

Does the Defiler meet the requirement of "unless it is armed with two or more specialist weapons" ? Yes

 

Keep in mind, there is NOTHING in the Specialist Weapon rule that says the model does not get +1A from non-specialist weapons, ONLY that it needs at least 2 specialist weapons to do so.

 

You can only use one weapon in Assault, with no mixing and matching of rules, not four. To account for those models which have more than one melee weapon, a bonus Attack is granted.

False.

 

At least, according to the same Specialist Weapon rule.

 

I'll quote it again here for you :

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons...

There. You get +1A for fighting with two weapons.

 

In the case of Walkers, they can gain a bonus Attack for each additional weapon, and no mention of overriding the Specialist Weapon rule is made.

 

Specialist Weapons when used, only grant +1 Attack when they are paired with another Specialist Weapon or more. Walkers are not exempted in this rule.

The Specialist Weapon makes no mention of non-specialist weapons, only requires the model to have at least two specialist weapons.

 

Finally, the wording on Specialist Weapon seems to mean a model fighting with a fist and chainsword cannot claim the +1A if he suddenly swings his sword... Because he is fighting with a power fist (according to the Specialist Weapon rule).

[Kristoff]

 

I'll reiterate again. The Scourge is NOT a Specialist Weapon, so unless a Power Fist and Scourge count as two or more Specialist Weapons, then they do not get a bonus Attack from THAT configuration.

Is the Defiler armed with two specialist weapons ? Yes

Does the Defiler meet the requirement of "unless it is armed with two or more specialist weapons" ? Yes

 

Keep in mind, there is NOTHING in the Specialist Weapon rule that says the model does not get +1A from non-specialist weapons, ONLY that it needs at least 2 specialist weapons to do so.

 

Actually it does say it doesn't get it unless there are 2 Specialist Weapons. It never says that non-Specialist Weapons count after that.

 

 

You can only use one weapon in Assault, with no mixing and matching of rules, not four. To account for those models which have more than one melee weapon, a bonus Attack is granted.

False.

 

Nope, quite true:

BRB > Weapons > More than One Weapon:

"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

 

It then goes on about getting bonus Attacks if you have more melee weapons.

 

At least, according to the same Specialist Weapon rule.

 

I'll quote it again here for you :

A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons...

There. You get +1A for fighting with two weapons.

 

Did you miss the part about not receiving it in the first place? Also, what classifies as Fighting? Not the two other places that grant the bonus Attack in the first place, that's for sure.

 

 

In the case of Walkers, they can gain a bonus Attack for each additional weapon, and no mention of overriding the Specialist Weapon rule is made.

 

Specialist Weapons when used, only grant +1 Attack when they are paired with another Specialist Weapon or more. Walkers are not exempted in this rule.

The Specialist Weapon makes no mention of non-specialist weapons, only requires the model to have at least two specialist weapons.

 

Finally, the wording on Specialist Weapon seems to mean a model fighting with a fist and chainsword cannot claim the +1A if he suddenly swings his sword... Because he is fighting with a power fist (according to the Specialist Weapon rule).

 

You are correct, Specialist Weapons do not mention anything after if you have Two Specialist Weapons, but it already denies you before hand, so, I guess at this point, it is a matter of where you give priority.

 

And did you recall where you don't mix and match the abilities and rules of melee weapons? I hope so, becase the Pistol/Chainsword you're using alongside that Fist doesn't have the Specialist Rule, so it doesn't count when you are not using it.

[Teetengee]

Specialist weapons never say that you don't get bonus attacks from non specialist weapons. They only say that you need at least 2 specialist weapons to get bonus attacks. Since most models can only get one bonus attack, those models don't care about the distinction. However, since defilers, and some other walkers, can have more than 2 weapons the distinction matters. A defiler with two fists and a flail is clearly armed with 2 or more specialist weapons. Therefore the specialist weapon rule does not restrict attacks. Then we look at the regular attacks rule, which for walkers says +1 for each weapon past the first. So the defiler gets +1 attack for each of ts two additional ccws. It does mean however, that losing the penultimate fist will cause a loss of two fist attacks rather than just one.

[Kristoff]

Specialist weapons never say that you don't get bonus attacks from non specialist weapons. They only say that you need at least 2 specialist weapons to get bonus attacks. Since most models can only get one bonus attack, those models don't care about the distinction. However, since defilers, and some other walkers, can have more than 2 weapons the distinction matters. A defiler with two fists and a flail is clearly armed with 2 or more specialist weapons. Therefore the specialist weapon rule does not restrict attacks. Then we look at the regular attacks rule, which for walkers says +1 for each weapon past the first. So the defiler gets +1 attack for each of ts two additional ccws. It does mean however, that losing the penultimate fist will cause a loss of two fist attacks rather than just one.

Actually, it does in the very first line. By virtue of only including Specialist Weapons in its conditions, it automatically disincludes non-Specialist Weapons from that list to begin with.

 

At which point, the real question is, "Which Advanced Rule is taking priority?" Is it the Walker's rule, or the Specialist Weapon rule?

[Teetengee]

 

Specialist weapons never say that you don't get bonus attacks from non specialist weapons. They only say that you need at least 2 specialist weapons to get bonus attacks. Since most models can only get one bonus attack, those models don't care about the distinction. However, since defilers, and some other walkers, can have more than 2 weapons the distinction matters. A defiler with two fists and a flail is clearly armed with 2 or more specialist weapons. Therefore the specialist weapon rule does not restrict attacks. Then we look at the regular attacks rule, which for walkers says +1 for each weapon past the first. So the defiler gets +1 attack for each of ts two additional ccws. It does mean however, that losing the penultimate fist will cause a loss of two fist attacks rather than just one.

Actually, it does in the very first line. By virtue of only including Specialist Weapons in its conditions, it automatically disincludes non-Specialist Weapons from that list to begin with.

 

At which point, the real question is, "Which Advanced Rule is taking priority?" Is it the Walker's rule, or the Specialist Weapon rule?

 

Please reread, precisely what the rule says, it does not forbid specialist weapons from getting normal basic attacks, it just says that they only get normal basic attacks when two+ specialist weapons are available. Neither rule takes priority, they both work. The Walker checks if it has two+ specialist weapons, and finding it does, then gets +1 attack for each weapon past the first weapon.

[Spinsanity]

Kristoff, while I agree that this seems to be he intent of the wording of the Specialist Weapon rule, the fact remains there is nothing in there that says a specific weapon needs to have the SW rule to give the +1 attack. All it says is the model needs 2 or more SAws.

 

Let's try this another way :

- Defiler attacks with a fist

- Defiler has an extra fist, so would usually get +1 A; however being a SW, we need to check if the walker has 2+ SWs : yes, so he gets the +1.

Defiler also has a Scourge, so would usually get +1 A; however te walker is fighting with a SW, so we need to check if the walker is armed wih 2 or more SWs : yes, so he gets the +1.

 

 

Now, I currently don't have my rulebook with me, so I apologize for the question...

 

You quoted the assault rules, but there is no mention of the word fighting in the quote you provided. Is there any other reference, in the assault rules, of figting or are they always referring - as is the case with your quote which, thus, doesn't help in this debate - to being armed and to attacking? I ask this because while a model might not be attacking with the fist, I still believe the SW rule applies if his second weapon is said fist...

[Kristoff]

Please reread, precisely what the rule says, it does not forbid specialist weapons from getting normal basic attacks, it just says that they only get normal basic attacks when two+ specialist weapons are available. Neither rule takes priority, they both work. The Walker checks if it has two+ specialist weapons, and finding it does, then gets +1 attack for each weapon past the first weapon.

Please read the rule again. It disallows a bonus attack unless two or more are present. It says nothing about additional past that.

 

From that perspective then, if said Defiler went from two Fists to one due Damage Results, would it then lose 2 Attacks?

 

This is where I find it a little disingenuous.

 

I'm going for a consistent basis, which means that it doesn't add it unless it IS a Specialist Weapon, especially with Walkers which can add beyond the norm. I just maintain the standard when doing the same.

 

I guess it depends on how you parse the sentence.

 

Now, I currently don't have my rulebook with me, so I apologize for the question...

 

You quoted the assault rules, but there is no mention of the word fighting in the quote you provided. Is there any other reference, in the assault rules, of figting or are they always referring - as is the case with your quote which, thus, doesn't help in this debate - to being armed and to attacking? I ask this because while a model might not be attacking with the fist, I still believe the SW rule applies if his second weapon is said fist...

Actually, going by what you are saying then, Specialist Weapon does nothing, as there are no bonuses gained for "fighting" with two weapons, since "fighting" is never used when applying those bonuses in the base rules.

 

To be honest, a lot of this sounds like an egg hunt to me, which is why I trend towards a more conservative perspective and understanding of bewildering rules.

[Teetengee]

 

Please reread, precisely what the rule says, it does not forbid specialist weapons from getting normal basic attacks, it just says that they only get normal basic attacks when two+ specialist weapons are available. Neither rule takes priority, they both work. The Walker checks if it has two+ specialist weapons, and finding it does, then gets +1 attack for each weapon past the first weapon.

Please read the rule again. It disallows a bonus attack unless two or more are present. It says nothing about additional past that.

-snip-

This statement is what I am saying. It disallows a bonus attack unless two or more are present. In the Defiler, two or more specialist weapons are present, therefore no attack is disallowed.

[Quixus]

How many extra attacks does a defiler with two power fists and a power scourge get? 3? 2 for having 2 weapons beyond the first and 1 for having more than one specialist weapon?

 

What is with the Librarian Dreadnought? It has a Power Fist and a Furioso Force Halberd. The force halberd is strictly better than the power fist, so the dreadnought would attack with it. Is it still fighting with a specialist weapon?

[Teetengee]

How many extra attacks does a defiler with two power fists and a power scourge get? 3? 2 for having 2 weapons beyond the first and 1 for having more than one specialist weapon?

 

What is with the Librarian Dreadnought? It has a Power Fist and a Furioso Force Halberd. The force halberd is strictly better than the power fist, so the dreadnought would attack with it. Is it still fighting with a specialist weapon?

First question: on looking at the basic rule, we find it gets +1 attack, but then we look at the advanced rules which modify it. It is fighting with the power fist (a specialist weapon) so we check whether it has 2 or more specialist weapons, it does, so the specialist weapon rule doesn't change the number of attacks. We also look at the walker rule and find that it gets +1 attack for each weapon past the first instead of the normal rule that caps bonus attacks at one, so it gets +2 attacks.

Alternatively, we could look at the walker rule and then the specialist rule (because order is not specified) and discover that the walker has +2 attacks, which is unmodified by the specialist rule because it has two or more specialist weapons. Thankfully, there is no rules contradiction, and both methods say the defiler has +2 attacks.

 

Second question: I am assuming the furioso force halberd is not a specialist weapon, otherwise the answer is clear.

Since the walker has only two close combat attacks, the walker attacks rule is irrelevant.

So now it is the issue of the specialist weapon rule. Clearly if the furioso attacked with the power fist, the specialist weapon rule would state no bonus attack. But since the furioso is attacking with a nonspecialist weapon, we need to look at what "fighting with" means.

If it means using the weapon's profile, then the specialist weapon rule does not come into play and the furioso gets +1 attack.

If it means having the weapon on the model in the attempt to gain extra attacks even if it's profile is not being used, then the specialist weapon rule does come into play and the furioso, having only one specialist weapon, does not get a bonus attack.

 

I would argue that "fighting with" refers to "using the profile of" since the only other mention of similar wording I can find in the book seems to suggest that (the part about only using the profile of one weapon when making attacks). However, the meaning of "fighting with" is technically up for debate.

 

In order to prevent the scenario where a model with one specialist weapon and two regular weapon uses the profile of the regular weapon and gets no bonus attack, I would go with the first interpretation, and give the model +1 attack.

[Quixus]

 

How many extra attacks does a defiler with two power fists and a power scourge get? 3? 2 for having 2 weapons beyond the first and 1 for having more than one specialist weapon?

 

What is with the Librarian Dreadnought? It has a Power Fist and a Furioso Force Halberd. The force halberd is strictly better than the power fist, so the dreadnought would attack with it. Is it still fighting with a specialist weapon?

First question: on looking at the basic rule, we find it gets +1 attack, but then we look at the advanced rules which modify it. It is fighting with the power fist (a specialist weapon) so we check whether it has 2 or more specialist weapons, it does, so the specialist weapon rule doesn't change the number of attacks. We also look at the walker rule and find that it gets +1 attack for each weapon past the first instead of the normal rule that caps bonus attacks at one, so it gets +2 attacks.

Alternatively, we could look at the walker rule and then the specialist rule (because order is not specified) and discover that the walker has +2 attacks, which is unmodified by the specialist rule because it has two or more specialist weapons. Thankfully, there is no rules contradiction, and both methods say the defiler has +2 attacks.

 

D'oh! Of course the SW rule only modifies either the walker extra attacks rule or the normal extra attack rule. It is not an independent source of extra attacks. Still the question is whether the general two weapons rule stacks with the walker rule for extra attacks. A walker with three weapons also has two weapons.

 

Second question: I am assuming the furioso force halberd is not a specialist weapon, otherwise the answer is clear.

Correct, the furioso force halberd is S x2 AP 2 Melee, Force

Since the walker has only two close combat attacks, the walker attacks rule is irrelevant.

Why? In this case both rules produce the same result, but either fits. Also each gives an extra attack and the rules so not say that only one of them applies. I know this is rules lawyering, and I wouldn't play that way, but both rules seem to apply since the walker is both a model engaged in melee and a walker in melee.

 

So now it is the issue of the specialist weapon rule. Clearly if the furioso attacked with the power fist, the specialist weapon rule would state no bonus attack. But since the furioso is attacking with a nonspecialist weapon, we need to look at what "fighting with" means.

If it means using the weapon's profile, then the specialist weapon rule does not come into play and the furioso gets +1 attack.

If it means having the weapon on the model in the attempt to gain extra attacks even if it's profile is not being used, then the specialist weapon rule does come into play and the furioso, having only one specialist weapon, does not get a bonus attack.

 

I would argue that "fighting with" refers to "using the profile of" since the only other mention of similar wording I can find in the book seems to suggest that (the part about only using the profile of one weapon when making attacks). However, the meaning of "fighting with" is technically up for debate.

 

In order to prevent the scenario where a model with one specialist weapon and two regular weapon uses the profile of the regular weapon and gets no bonus attack, I would go with the first interpretation, and give the model +1 attack.

I agree but as you said it is unfortunately unclear.

[Teetengee]

I think this might help

 

BRB pg 91
If a walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus attack.

 

 

The line above clearly means that this rule is the same rule mentioned on page 49 and 41 with an exception for Walkers, rather than being a rule that is in addition to the 49/41 rule.

[Quixus]

I agree what the intention is but what the rule actually only says that with this rule walkers can get more than one extra attacks. It does not say that both rules overlap or that they are mutually exclusive.