Talon of Horus

[Conn Eremon]

Which is exactly how I see it go down. Abaddon will win, but only to be king for a day. Humanity's last day. Figuratively speaking, that is.

 

Which is still, I mean, wow, what an honor.

[Candleshoes]

With 10,000 years of timeline/character development and Black Crusades to play in as a sandbox, I think we won't be seeing modern setting 40k in these books for a long time, and in a way, if it did show up (outside of flashbacks to the present) it would be doing the legacy this series is trying to build a great, great disservice.

 

I've put in 3 reads of the novel so far, and I plan a 4th next week on vacation... I must say, having the time to really objectively look at it overall, I feel our narrator and main character is actually the weakest part of the book. I would speculate so far as to say he will be the weakest part of the series going forward. This comment being made of course with the understanding that the foundation, methodology and story present are all solid, and the quality of the book beyond proven. I am one of those who agree with people who say the first 150 pages of this book do more to champion chaos space marine identity, than arguably GW has since the Index Astartes articles.

 

I understand why a psyker and a thousand son was chosen as the main character in a first person view to tell the tale. I understand the freedoms it allows on the creative end and the ability to convey more of a situation than normally allowed. I understand how he as a choice is naturally balanced (more balanced than his peers) knowledgeable, and more likely to make rational choices.

 

Knowing all this, it is my personal opinion that Khayon, an immeasurably powerful psyker, was the incorrect lens for an audience to view this story from, in a story that was chosen to be written in first person.

 

Of course I felt the weight and gravity of what was being told and built up in this opening story of the series. I have nothing against his actions or place as a character. To me, Khayon's actions would be far more interesting, confusing and mysterious if we as readers didn't know what he was thinking and feeling.

 

The "struggle" that we see present and so well written in Talos, Grimaldus, Sevetar doesn't exist in Khayon, a character who by blood simply is better and more than his peers. When they are wrong, make poor choices and have to live with the consequences, it is done in the face of their reality as seen by them, in a situation that they have carved out by themselves.

 

For them, there is room for loss, for error, for growth and development and most of all, for risk. In no way is this present in a believable way for Khayon, whose story and language are brilliant, but it is brilliant simply because the author informs you so. You simply don't come to those conclusions yourself by their actions.

 

It is the old saying, I want to see, not be told. You are told by his thoughts and his immediate understanding of all things and situations around him. First person psykers of that power are a fine line to walk and it is easy to go too far one way or the other and blur the line.

 

Talos as an example lived and breathed that character struggle, and did it spectacularly. His ignorant choices and beliefs, and ultimately the consequences burned who he was as a character into the readers, none of that was just told to us. Khayon suffers in this department greatly as he seems to only benefit or gain from his faults and flaws, something most people hate to see when reading a fictional hero. Imagine if Talos knew at any given time what everyone was thinking? Friends and foes? How would that have changed him? His decisions? The meaning he made his and his brother's lives have? And that is only one power among thousands.

 

The only other similar long text first person character (Grimaldus) that I can compare to, who shows his thoughts, emotions and inner reflections as the core of a heavily flawed character, but his voice and actions to others tell a parallel and different story. Grimaldus is defined by what he does in Helsreach, but his thoughts give layer upon layer of context. The thoughts may even be wrong or misinformed, which led to naturally interesting situations, that he then must deal with.

 

Khayon the character is wonderful and full of life. He is a brilliant lynchpin for this story. His actions viewed from the outside are perfect.

 

Khayon the first person narrator simply knows too much. He is not challenged by his peers or surroundings, and when situations arise, and we as readers can see into his head... we know absolutely that he has too many answers to any situation: magic, his overflowing toolbox, magic, his Sherlock Holmes brain, and magic.

 

What a story it would have been from the eyes of one who could not pierce the veil. Who could have witnessed these acts of greatness and horror and internally had to take them at face value, and somehow make sense of them. Imagine building the foundation of this myth in utter darkness, rather than in the light.

[Loesh]

I don't know, I see the argument for why Khayon might be too powerful, but as i'v examined the character i'v sort of changed my stance on him.

 

While I believe he should of suffered WAY more consequence for losing control of the Ragged Knight and he can do some pretty impressive stuff in the warp, he also kind of comes across as almost....pathetic? Until he meets Abaddon anyways, he feels like a pathetic broken old man who doesn't know where he's going or even really what he's doing. At any point in time his best laid plans could just unravel in an instant, he just happens to be lucky enough that they don't. I agree in that, in the future he probably should get punched in the face harder for his failings, but it is not(Yet) insufferable.

[Sulemain]

I've just finished my 5th re-reading, and I just noticed something both sad and amusing:

 

Khayon had, up until it was explained to him, no idea what an apple was. I found that bitterly amusing. 

[Karthak]

I wonder how Abaddon would have phrased his pitch if there were Night Lords present at the founding of the Black Legion. Several times in the book he goes on about what failures the Primarchs were, and how they abandoned their sons to become servants of the Powers.

 

But the Night Haunter was different. He did not become a daemon slave of the gods. He did not fail in the same way as Horus. He chose his death, and his sons obeyed his last order so that it would come to pass. True, some, like Ruven, hold nothing but contempt for his memory, but I'd be very much surprised if there weren't a great many Night Lords who'd go "Ezekyle, you're my brother, but insult the memory of my father one more time, and I'll do my best to kill you."

[hummus]

But he had nothing but contempt for his own legion

[Karthak]

But he had nothing but contempt for his own legion

Many of his sons still cared for him. In Prince of Crows, many are praying and hoping that he makes it when he lies wounded, and in Throne of Lies, there are those who cry when they see him in a hololithic recorder.

[Rain]

Well, keep in mind that Curze's whole schtick was that he was essentially 2 people. Konrad Curze and "the Night Haunter." This was his own ultimate hypocrisy, and a hypocrisy he saw mirrored in his Legion, which he hated them (and himself) for. He was basically the dysfunctional alcoholic dad that beats his family and then hates himself for it only to keep repeating it. And his behavior created equally dysfunctional pathological children who he also hated when he didn't love them, at least in his own bizarre way.

 

In fact, one could argue that his suicide by cop/assassin thing was a way of freeing his sons from himself. I mean it was certainly also a way to "vindicate" his worldview, but it could be seen as a final attempt to let his sons make their own way without his influence. I mean, he destroyed Nostramo for "poisoning" his Legion, and perhaps later in a moment of lucidity he realized that he was just as much a source of venom. This is why I find the whole "puritan Night Lord" trope so droll. I mean besides the fact that misunderstood antiheroes are a dime a dozen in low rent comic book type fiction; it's just such an oversimplification of a character that just like real people was not always consistent.

[A D-B]

Well, keep in mind that Curze's whole schtick was that he was essentially 2 people. Konrad Curze and "the Night Haunter." This was his own ultimate hypocrisy, and a hypocrisy he saw mirrored in his Legion, which he hated them (and himself) for. He was basically the dysfunctional alcoholic dad that beats his family and then hates himself for it only to keep repeating it. And his behavior created equally dysfunctional pathological children who he also hated when he didn't love them, at least in his own bizarre way.

 

In fact, one could argue that his suicide by cop/assassin thing was a way of freeing his sons from himself. I mean it was certainly also a way to "vindicate" his worldview, but it could be seen as a final attempt to let his sons make their own way without his influence. I mean, he destroyed Nostramo for "poisoning" his Legion, and perhaps later in a moment of lucidity he realized that he was just as much a source of venom. This is why I find the whole "puritan Night Lord" trope so droll. I mean besides the fact that misunderstood antiheroes are a dime a dozen in low rent comic book type fiction; it's just such an oversimplification of a character that just like real people was not always consistent.

 

Such delicious analysis.

[Kilofix]

 

But he had nothing but contempt for his own legion

 

Many of his sons still cared for him. In Prince of Crows, many are praying and hoping that he makes it when he lies wounded, and in Throne of Lies, there are those who cry when they see him in a hololithic recorder.

Maybe a little harsh an analogy but I equate this to "a pit fighting dog that's been abused by its master but still 'cares' about it's master". They don't know or have anything else. That's what's tragic about the Night Lords. Now, I'm not saying that 'care' isn't genuine. I would believe that it IS genuine. But it is different from say how the WBs feel about Lorgar or even how the WEs feel about Angron (disfunctional as the latter might be too).

[Loesh]

I choose 'all of the above'.

 

Like all Legions, how they feel about their Primarch will vary wildly from one warband to another. Some Emperors Children left their colors behind to join the Children of Torment and did you see what his Legion was like when it came to him? They had an utterly psychotic level of zeal for him that would make them murder other people for him on the drop of a hat. If THAT Legion can't have a uniform opinion on their Primarch, it's doubtful any of them do.

 

Many of them would not of even been close enough to Curze to see what he was really like, they only know what they hear, and think only the best of him.

[Wade Garrett]

I think Abaddon is going to have to moderate his "All our dads SUCKED! ALL OF THEM!" spiel as the series goes on.

 

I say this because yes, the Black Legion may be the strongest force in the Eye, and yes, those who flock to its banners lap up the "The Primarchs were fools, their Legions were fools, we are the true inheritors of the galaxy" (Ruven, Khayon, etc) but he can't conquer the galaxy with just them.

 

To accomplish his goals, Abaddon needs to be able to recruit every soul that he can, which, yes, means that random renegade from an Ultramarines successor that only just moved into the Eye last week, is still busy gluing spikes to all his stuff, and doesn't know Mortarion from Magnus, but also that Dark Apostle who shows up on Sicarus for every XVII gathering come Hell or high water, and opens every one of his sermons with "When I was a boy on Colchis, Blessed Lorgar said to me..."

 

He can't just appeal to the zealots on either side of that divide, he has to offer a vision and a direction that is, if not appealing, at least palatable to the great majority of his fellows.

 

And neither a hardline "STUFF THE PRIMARCHS" or a hardline "LOVE THE PRIMARCHS" is going to cut it there.

[Loesh]

True, but we knew that to start.  We know he makes a deal with Mortarion and Fulgrim for example, and the nuclear option(Actually trying to beat them.) is just that...the nuclear option, and as a consequence the most costly and time consuming. Despite Magnus(If even Magnus, we don't have context.) he's probably going to wind up on decent terms with a lot of the Primarchs....even if initially they try to murder one another.

[Conn Eremon]

More than likely, Abaddon was simply being political, which is exactly what I think Wade wants if I understood correctly. Abaddon's stance against the Primarchs, as failures, as orated by himself in this book, is likely more than a little informed by his own personal beliefs. But while the vitriol may have come easily to him, actually expressing it at all came across more as a manipulation of the attending audience.

 

After all, consider who he was accompanied by in this stage. The Abaddon they encountered was exactly the Abaddon they would follow.

[Wade Garrett]

If I can shift gears from Abs for a moment:

 

I personally find the characterization of Curze as a split personality who keeps popping out of his fugue states covered in other people's internal organs and he has no idea why to be dull as dirt.

 

"Oooh, crazy man, he's evil because he's craaaay-zey, look out."

 

I'm not saying that Konrad was a paragon of sanity and the true hero of the Great Crusade.

 

Rather, I still prefer the image of him put forward in "Lord of the Night", sitting on his dark throne whispering "I will kill one to save ten. Kill ten to save a hundred. Kill a hundred to save a thousand. And one day, I will kill tens of BILLIONS to save everyone."

 

Not a misunderstood hero, God Emperor no, but someone with a worldview and motives that he can coherently articulate, that sound nastily profound given how the entire Imperium turns on rule by fear (the Commissariate, the Inquisition) and atrocity.

 

Konrad giggling to himself as he skins dogs and eats children because the voices in his head tell him it's a good idea falls flat to me, Konrad doing it "for their own good", well...

 

"Those who torment us for our own good will torment us for all eternity, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."

[Loesh]

That's generally how I feel about Konrad Curze as well, saying that he had a good side and a bad side is such a gross oversimplification of the character that it boarders insulting. Rather it's he had two different sides, but these sides were still firmly linked by the same train of thought.

[A D-B]

That's generally how I feel about Konrad Curze as well, saying that he had a good side and a bad side is such a gross oversimplification of the character that it boarders insulting. Rather it's he had two different sides, but these sides were still firmly linked by the same train of thought.

 

That's the vibe I got from Rain's post (and indeed the source material too, with the exception of Lord of the Night). So I didn't read that as you disagreeing with him, there.

 

The "He's just crazy" and "It's multiple personalities" angle is definitely the weakest aspect of the character if taken at face value (as in, the "Night Haunter / Curze divide") but a big part of how I run at this stuff is to take it as seriously as possible most of the time, and work on more nuanced looks at stuff that might seem pretty blunt. Which, obviously, is the same way loads of us run at this stuff, too.

 

I tend to see these divides the way the Joker was described in Nolan's Batman flicks. The popular line that carried the movie was "Some men just want to see the world burn..." which is soundbite gold. Unfortunately, it's also the exact opposite of what the Joker was about. He had a very strict, clear method to his madness, to peel back the lies of society and show people what (he believed) they really were. He was meticulous about it, utterly dedicated to it, and his insanity (along with the creepiness that it brought) wasn't in the fact that he wanted to do it - it was in how utterly dedicated he was to that cause, and all he would do to bring it about.

 

So on the surface we have "The Joker was crazy", the same way we have "Curze was two guys". I mean, technically true, but also doing a massive disservice to the characters and hugely glossing over their reasons and rhymes. 

 

 

I personally find the characterization of Curze as a split personality who keeps popping out of his fugue states covered in other people's internal organs and he has no idea why to be dull as dirt.

 

Rather, I still prefer the image of him put forward in "Lord of the Night", 

 

...

 

Not a misunderstood hero

 

...

 

Dude, Lord of the Night literally created the meme of Curze being a misunderstood hero who had multiple personalities, and the Night Lords being betrayed by the Emperor. Yes, you had a last chapter refutation (which is usually ignored by many readers) and there's definitely more nuance to it than that - which I've waxed lyrical about many times and won't go into yet again. But it's that novel's primary legacy and the source of everything you're saying you don't like. Pretty much everything else since then hasn't mentioned Curze's multiple personalities, and went back to the Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now vibe of Colonel Kurtz instead. The intent of it being his decision to do those things, not his Dark Side or Chaos Personality, or whatever else.

[A D-B]

I think Abaddon is going to have to moderate his "All our dads SUCKED! ALL OF THEM!" spiel as the series goes on.

 

Naturally. He has a pretty balanced view of it overall, given his position, and it's not as simple as "They were all failures". Yes, they were, but they also achieved many insanely amazing things, too. And they're obscenely powerful. Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever to play the game, but he needed Scottie Pippen at his side, and 10 other players to fill out a team. Abaddon can be High King Whatever, but it'd be nonsense if he completely hated and ignored the Traitor Primarchs and couldn't see anything useful or worthy about them. 

 

And I know you're exaggerating for the chuckles, but I seriously don't reckon there's very much "All our dads SUCKED" in Talon, let alone in Caps Lock. Some things stand out because they're explained for the first time in detail, not because they're explained heavy-handedly. I still get comments on my blog that say "But you're wrong, Horus was better, the Traitor Primarchs are stronger and better than Abaddon, bye." Sometimes you're explaining things to... broad audiences. You don't want to talk down to anyone, but you need to make it as clear as you can all the same. Abaddon being as rad as he is, and his views on the Chaos Primarchs, literally is news to a lot of readers. It deserves a decent amount of air time not just because of that, but because it's also fascinating.

 

He's building - from the ground up, and in much harder circumstances - what the Primarchs started out with, given to them for free. It'd be insane if that wasn't a significant deal in the Black Legion's dealings. It's the main reason Abaddon and his warriors are unique.

 

tl;dr -- Yes, but also no.

[Conn Eremon]

He's building - from the ground up, and in much harder circumstances - what the Primarchs started out with, given to them for free.

That's actually a pretty relevant point. Part of Abaddon's opinion of the Primarchs is likely at least partly informed by the fact that he built something that rivaled what was simply handed to them. That doesn't make the Primarchs any less remarkable, but it does make a lot of implications about just what makes Abaddon so remarkable.

 

Even still, there is much that Abaddon cannot do that the Primarchs did, and not simply because of their preordained roles but because of their own remarkableness.

 

Abaddon likely will kill the Imperium. But he will never turn half of the Imperium in on itself, as Horus did. Abaddon forged from the ashes of many old Legions a Legion of the Long War, the greatest force that Homo Chaotica can muster. But the XIII, the XVI of old, the First Legion of old, and others, all had Legions superior to what Abaddon has forged. And Guilliman, at the very least, was as personally responsible for this Legion as Abaddon is the Black.

 

So no, Abaddon would be a fool to simply cast aside the Primarchs as the broken tools of a failed god, but he, more than anyone else, would have a point. What Horus achieved was in part due to the deception of the Dark Gods, a deception Abaddon fully believes himself free of. What legendary, force Guilliman had forged was built in a different age, with different resources, none of which was available to Abaddon, and yet his Legion rivals those of old nonetheless.

 

It's also worthwhile to point out where those surviving Primarchs are now, and what Abaddon steadfastly refuses to become. To become himself a Daemon Prince would be to fail in his vision, in his goal, in his own eyes. What then must he think of those who willingly cast aside what they were to become such creatures? Even still, something to respect, to bargain with, to acknowledge their power and reach.

[Loesh]

I think Abaddon is going to have to moderate his "All our dads SUCKED! ALL OF THEM!" spiel as the series goes on.

Naturally. He has a pretty balanced view of it overall, given his position, and it's not as simple as "They were all failures". Yes, they were, but they also achieved many insanely amazing things, too. And they're obscenely powerful. Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever to play the game, but he needed Scottie Pippen at his side, and 10 other players to fill out a team. Abaddon can be High King Whatever, but it'd be nonsense if he completely hated and ignored the Traitor Primarchs and couldn't see anything useful or worthy about them.

And I know you're exaggerating for the chuckles, but I seriously don't reckon there's very much "All our dads SUCKED" in Talon, let alone in Caps Lock. Some things stand out because they're explained for the first time in detail, not because they're explained heavy-handedly. I still get comments on my blog that say "But you're wrong, Horus was better, the Traitor Primarchs are stronger and better than Abaddon, bye." Sometimes you're explaining things to... broad audiences. You don't want to talk down to anyone, but you need to make it as clear as you can all the same. Abaddon being as rad as he is, and his views on the Chaos Primarchs, literally is news to a lot of readers. It deserves a decent amount of air time not just because of that, but because it's also fascinating.

He's building - from the ground up, and in much harder circumstances - what the Primarchs started out with, given to them for free. It'd be insane if that wasn't a significant deal in the Black Legion's dealings. It's the main reason Abaddon and his warriors are unique.

tl;dr -- Yes, but also no.

I get where Wade is coming from on that point of view regarding certain points in Talon. That said, it's also important to understand that for what little we see of Abaddon in Talon of Horus is essentially Abaddon in his angry teenage years, for lack of a better way to phrase it.

He's just come out of the Horus Heresy and the last remnants of his Legion have been annihilated, annhilated harder then any other Legion in the setting and he's growing up. Yes he's learned a lot by the point Khayon and Co bump into him, but he's not the Antichrist he is by the time 41M is happening. Canticle City ends on a triumphant note for Abaddon as he kills his once father, but I get the feeling that destroying one measly planet and a clone Primarch will seem like a cakewalk compared to the future. He's going to face Primarchs in battles of wit and strength who unlike Horus actually made it out of the Heresy and began the transformation into fragments of their respective gods. Fight an Imperium that is far more prepared at times then he'll think and battle against all the other traitor legions, sometimes both at the same time, and sometimes he'll even lose.

Abaddon will grow and change from what he is now, because once he's in the big bad Eye of Terror he'll find people he needs, people he can't brush aside or kill, won't be so easy to sway as Khayon and company. At times those same Primarchs will be his allies as often as his enemy, and he'll be in teeth clenched teamwork with groups of people he was warring with not one hundred years ago. When all of THAT is committed to paper, then we can truly see how Abaddon has developed into the Warlord he is now, and if it's believable. Until then, we should reserve judgement for at least one more book.

No pressure.

[Karthak]

 

He's building - from the ground up, and in much harder circumstances - what the Primarchs started out with, given to them for free.

 

"Fulgrim and Magnus look up, hard at work saving Legions that were on the brink of extinction when they were handed to them."

"U say wot, mate?"

 

Good point, but some Primarchs definitely had it easier than others. :D

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

I think Abaddon is going to have to moderate his "All our dads SUCKED! ALL OF THEM!" spiel as the series goes on.

Naturally. He has a pretty balanced view of it overall, given his position, and it's not as simple as "They were all failures". Yes, they were, but they also achieved many insanely amazing things, too. And they're obscenely powerful. Michael Jordan was the best basketball player ever to play the game, but he needed Scottie Pippen at his side, and 10 other players to fill out a team. Abaddon can be High King Whatever, but it'd be nonsense if he completely hated and ignored the Traitor Primarchs and couldn't see anything useful or worthy about them.

 

And I know you're exaggerating for the chuckles, but I seriously don't reckon there's very much "All our dads SUCKED" in Talon, let alone in Caps Lock. Some things stand out because they're explained for the first time in detail, not because they're explained heavy-handedly. I still get comments on my blog that say "But you're wrong, Horus was better, the Traitor Primarchs are stronger and better than Abaddon, bye." Sometimes you're explaining things to... broad audiences. You don't want to talk down to anyone, but you need to make it as clear as you can all the same. Abaddon being as rad as he is, and his views on the Chaos Primarchs, literally is news to a lot of readers. It deserves a decent amount of air time not just because of that, but because it's also fascinating.

 

He's building - from the ground up, and in much harder circumstances - what the Primarchs started out with, given to them for free. It'd be insane if that wasn't a significant deal in the Black Legion's dealings. It's the main reason Abaddon and his warriors are unique.

 

tl;dr -- Yes, but also no.

Point.

 

Abaddon in Talon never goes as far as he did in the quote attributed to him back in Index Astartes "Horus was weak, Horus was a fool, etc etc". But it's harder to convey "Abaddon has a nuanced and complicated view of the situation that he has obviously put a lot of thought into" as a pithy summation than it is to say "THE PRIMARCHS WERE BIG DOODY-HEADS!"

 

As far as LotN creating the "Nice Guy Konrad Curze" meme...well, yes it did. No argument there. But I would say....

 

It's like if someone watches "The Godfather" and walks out of the theater going "Wow, Michael Corleone taking over the family business was a heart warming happy ending. It must be awesome to be a gangster."

[Dragonlover]

Man, I never thought about the fact Abaddon is doing from the ground up what the Primarchs got handed to them.

 

Also, can't remember if I've said this anywhere, but the book was a lot better on the re-read, whereas it left me cold on the first pass through. No expectations on the re-read.

 

Dragonlover

[Loesh]

He's building - from the ground up, and in much harder circumstances - what the Primarchs started out with, given to them for free.

"Fulgrim and Magnus look up, hard at work saving Legions that were on the brink of extinction when they were handed to them."

"U say wot, mate?"

Good point, but some Primarchs definitely had it easier than others.

Well yeah, I think it's also important to note while all the Primarchs failed Chaos, some of them failed harder then others.

Actually let me rephrase, some of them -succeeded- more then others, I think a lot of these hang ups come from the strong connotations with the word 'failure' really.

Isn't that right Abaddon?

[A D-B]

I can't put into words how freaking useful I'm finding this thread, and how grateful I am for the insight I'm stealing from you all.