Son of Carnelian Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Dude, from what we can infer based on prior information, Sigismund gives as good as he gets in this fight. It makes Abaddon get Drach'nyen so no one can step to him again. That's awesome and shows just how monumental this confrontation is not only to the Black Legion's future, but the future of the Imperium itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Not too crazy about the Abaddon killing Sigismund...but ADB tends to thrive on writing controversial scenes, Night of the Wolf for example Well, i'm curious. What do you think should happen to Sigismund? He should die on his toilets. The Black Templars then find him a week or two after his passing. That is a death worth remembering. /irony. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 "And how can a man die better, than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his father, and the temple of his god." The Lay of Sigismund circa M32 Someone's a Doctor Who fan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 But as a side note, what's controversial to some folks is of almost no consequence to others. I don't think Sigismund being the most defiant Space Marine ever to live and refusing to abandon the vigil for the Traitors when the rest of the Imperium thinks they're dead - as well as having the honour of dying to the literal Antichrist of the Warhammer 40,000 setting - is particularly controversial. I think it's the kind of death any knight, Spartan, Space Marine, or son of a warrior culture would yearn for - essentially because it is. I think this is something worth underlining several times over, the Warhammer 40k universe is a setting about loss, and loss from everyone whether they are traitor or loyalist. In the Horus Heresy series most of the characters who aren't Daemon Princes will end up dying whether we like it or not, because it's the closing of an age, it's curtain call for the Emperors imperium and all the old is going to be thrown out for the horrible, horrible new. Frankly it's an honor that Sigismund has even been around to the 1st Black Crusade, a time where most of those like him died a long time ago. The Sacred Band of Thebes was regarded as invincible during their time, but do I think less of them for falling to Philp the second and Alexander the Great at Chaeronea? Of course not, as a student of history I recognize all great warriors fall, and some have a far more glorious death then others. If Sigismunds story has to end(And all stories end.) then there can be no better way for him to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 As an aside, isn't Dorn supposed to die in the 1st Black Crusade? Was that a non-Abaddon 1st Black Crusade, or do Sigi and Dorn both die in the same one? It would make a lot of sense for Sigi to be watching and waiting if Dorn bit it from a previous incursion I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 As an aside, isn't Dorn supposed to die in the 1st Black Crusade? Was that a non-Abaddon 1st Black Crusade, or do Sigi and Dorn both die in the same one? It would make a lot of sense for Sigi to be watching and waiting if Dorn bit it from a previous incursion I guess. Dorn dies to a Black Crusade that isn't led by Abaddon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 "And how can a man die better, than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his father, and the temple of his god." The Lay of Sigismund circa M32 Someone's a Doctor Who fan. That quote predates dr. Who by hundreds of years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4190871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 "And how can a man die better, than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his father, and the temple of his god." The Lay of Sigismund circa M32 Someone's a Doctor Who fan.That quote predates dr. Who by hundreds of years.I know. But it's fun in Doctor Who because the guy says it while staring into a black hole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 But as a side note, what's controversial to some folks is of almost no consequence to others. I don't think Sigismund being the most defiant Space Marine ever to live and refusing to abandon the vigil for the Traitors when the rest of the Imperium thinks they're dead - as well as having the honour of dying to the literal Antichrist of the Warhammer 40,000 setting - is particularly controversial. I think it's the kind of death any knight, Spartan, Space Marine, or son of a warrior culture would yearn for - essentially because it is. The honour of dying to Abaddon? If I recall correctly we had an exchange in the past about what Space Marines consider a glorious death, i.e. falling in combat, where my opinion was that the most glorious death is the one where you die in bed of ripe old age because you wrecked absolutely everyone you ever faced in battle and remained undefeated. Same thing with this. I have a hard time seeing what's so glorious about failing to stop the guy who's going to damn the species; sounds more like a sad failure to me. ...Man, I suck at Stronk Warrior Culture Ethics and Morals, don't I? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 "If you didn't have to die to accomplish your final badass feat, it probably wasn't actually that badass, all things considered." -Stronk Warrior Culture Morals & Ethics 101 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Achilles kills Hector. But it's not a fight in a vacuum. Dude. Space Troy! This has to happen! http://vintagespace.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/deep-space-home-and-buzz.jpg This joke may take a minute to sink in. You'll hate me once it does. Not too crazy about the Abaddon killing Sigismund...but ADB tends to thrive on writing controversial scenes, Night of the Wolf for example Well, i'm curious. What do you think should happen to Sigismund? The implosion this very question brought about in the BT subforum was a thing to behold. Personally, so long as it is written well, I take no issue with the concept as it's being presented. One of the points people brought up in protest was Sigismund's failure to stop Abaddon, and thus dying for nothing. Abaddon's first Crusade was a "success" according to the most vocal bringer of this objection, but considering all the contradictory fluff you get out of dexes and such, I've got no idea what the evidence (if any) was. So wanting Sigismund to die for more than the simple symbolism of faithful defiance, but also some significant tactical achievement? Seems like a fair point, so long as "significant" doesn't strictly translate as "decisively victorious." It's an interesting change of the usual fretting. Normally it's "What would happen if my Chapter/Primarch fought your Chapter/Primarch?" (see: Night of the Wolf) and the subsequent bickering of "Mine>yours" (see: Night of the Wolf, again). Knowing (a key part of) the outcome ahead of time changes the process in a weird, amusing, nail biting sort of way. "And how can a man die better, than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his father, and the temple of his really strong dude but totally not a god." The Lay of Sigismund circa M32 Cut that out! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Yeah, dying of old age in warrior cultures isn't seen as conquering all of your enemies, it's seen as giving up trying to find new enemies. Only in battle do you go to Valhalla, only in battle do you claim glory. All else is just being lazy. EDIT: @Firepower, I'm not sure I'd say Sigismund's death was in vain since, you know, pretty much every single Loyalist/Imperial will have died in vain if put in that light, but the First Black Crusade was a success, from what little we know of it. The background we currently have says that the First Black Crusade was done only to claim Drach'nyen and maybe serve as a testing of how ready the Imperium could respond to an attack. From what we have, Abaddon left the Eye, claimed Drach'nyen and afterwards, the Imperium began fortifying Cadia. And it's always fun bringing that last fact up since Failbaddon is always that every Black Crusade has been about breaking Cadia, but Cadia was a dead world during the First Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 The implosion this very question brought about in the BT subforum was a thing to behold. Personally, so long as it is written well, I take no issue with the concept as it's being presented. One of the points people brought up in protest was Sigismund's failure to stop Abaddon, and thus dying for nothing. Abaddon's first Crusade was a "success" according to the most vocal bringer of this objection, but considering all the contradictory fluff you get out of dexes and such, I've got no idea what the evidence (if any) was. So wanting Sigismund to die for more than the simple symbolism of faithful defiance, but also some significant tactical achievement? Seems like a fair point, so long as "significant" doesn't strictly translate as "decisively victorious." Well here's the thing: No one else, NO ONE, was prepared for the Black Crusade to kick up, there was no way it couldn't be a success. But the impression I get is if the Black Templars hadn't been there then that success would of probably been a victory that ruined the Imperium for good, countless worlds would fall, defenses would shatter on many of the most important worlds to the Imperium, they might not even get chased back into the Eye. It would of been Game Over Man, Game Over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Possibly. Losing the battle to win the war is still a victory in the grand scheme of things, a la Thermopylae. I personally consider that to be enough of a victory, but the fine print will of course be important, and there will always be the belligerent minority that just refuses to accept anything short of "Sigismund was actually the Emperor in disguise, and it's really Horus leashed to the Golden Throne and sustaining the Imperium against his will. And I want a free life time supply of ice cream when I buy this book. But it still sucks." I've never read enough into Chaos texts to really know the history of writings related to Abaddon, or where the Failbaddon meme comes from, and I don't really care much either way. My main exposure to Abaddon was in the first three books of the Horus Heresy, and if I have to (nobly) sacrifice Sigismund (whom we all knew had to die sometime) to get away from the hulk-rage dumby of those novels, so be it. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4191907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 "Sigismund was actually the Emperor in disguise, and it's really Horus leashed to the Golden Throne and sustaining the Imperium against his will. And I want a free life time supply of ice cream when I buy this book. But it still sucks." I once met someone who fervently believed the Word Bearers were the only good people in the setting and the only people who mastered Chaos and everyone else was a slave to it's whims, he believed this intensely that he thought the reason Lorgar was biding his time for 10,000 years was because he was going to return as the second coming of the Emperor and help the Imperium beat Chaos and all it's Xenos threats once and for all. That was, according to him, because Lorgar looked so much like the Emperor that he could pull it off. I cannot even begin to make a single word of this up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I believe you. About the part being too bonkers to make up. That said, it makes more sense than some of the fan theories I've seen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I believe you. About the part being too bonkers to make up. That said, it makes more sense than some of the fan theories I've seen. The rabbit hole is deep. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 "Sigismund was actually the Emperor in disguise, and it's really Horus leashed to the Golden Throne and sustaining the Imperium against his will. And I want a free life time supply of ice cream when I buy this book. But it still sucks." I once met someone who fervently believed the Word Bearers were the only good people in the setting and the only people who mastered Chaos and everyone else was a slave to it's whims, he believed this intensely that he thought the reason Lorgar was biding his time for 10,000 years was because he was going to return as the second coming of the Emperor and help the Imperium beat Chaos and all it's Xenos threats once and for all. That was, according to him, because Lorgar looked so much like the Emperor that he could pull it off. I cannot even begin to make a single word of this up. I am -nearly- one of those people. For the 150 years I have played and read everything Chaos in 40K, a very long time ago I came to conclusion that the Word Bearers are the true salesmen of Chaos. Chaos IS the premiere pyramid scheme in the universe. Word Bearers specifically run the Ponzi Scheme of all Ponzi Schemes. Everyone else is just buying into a piece of the pie, and some do better than others, but only Word Bearers truly get into bed with Chaos every night and rarely get kicked to the curb. Even Horus is a pawn. He came to a point of choosing death or becoming THE bad guy. That's what it took for him.... but Word Bearers have been selling shares to evil Avon products for years already. The only wrench in your friend's idea to me is that as the HH series has rolled out, Lorgar is perhaps more the 'worshipper' than I originally thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Not too crazy about the Abaddon killing Sigismund...but ADB tends to thrive on writing controversial scenes, Night of the Wolf for example Well, i'm curious. What do you think should happen to Sigismund? Not die in a duel... Which is not the same as wanting him to beat Abaddon in a duel Off the top of my head...one possible scenario: even at an advanced age, Sigismund manages to find his warrior's death on a pile of CSM champions freshly slain by his hand...I'm thinking something maybe along the lines of how Buliwyf (Beowulf) dies in the movie The Thirteenth Warrior Of course, this might mean Sigismund never fights Abaddon. Personally, I'd prefer that to Sigismund getting gutted by Abaddon...this is my personal preference Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Not too crazy about the Abaddon killing Sigismund...but ADB tends to thrive on writing controversial scenes, Night of the Wolf for example On the contrary, I loathe controversial scenes. But that was far less controversial than the possibilities it quenched, which was that "We know the Wolves have fought Space Marines before because they keep saying so, and it looks like it was the Lost Legions" which wasn't true, and it needed to be countered. I like what it said narratively about the World Eaters, but I still made that fight out to be almost hilariously 50-50 because I knew there'd be uproar if anyone "won". And biased weirdos on both sides still rage that it was unfair "they" "lost". But as a side note, what's controversial to some folks is of almost no consequence to others. I don't think Sigismund being the most defiant Space Marine ever to live and refusing to abandon the vigil for the Traitors when the rest of the Imperium thinks they're dead - as well as having the honour of dying to the literal Antichrist of the Warhammer 40,000 setting - is particularly controversial. I think it's the kind of death any knight, Spartan, Space Marine, or son of a warrior culture would yearn for - essentially because it is. Some people will lament the mystery being peeled back (which I can fully accept; there are plenty of mysteries I don't want revealed) and some people will rage that I "hate loyalists" or whatever (which is nonsense and betrays the tawdry way they approach the setting and their terrifying lack of perspective) but no, I don't see this one as particularly controversial in execution. Also of note, and as explained before, there's a difference between "Abaddon kills Sigismund" - which is genuinely all some people will see - and what the scene actually is, and what it'll mean, in context. Achilles kills Hector. But it's not a fight in a vacuum. It means a great deal, and a great many things. I liked Night of the Wolf. It generated a lot of discussion and debate...so I'd label it as "controversial" in that sense. Controversy often stimulates interest Let me be clear about my opinion... People might have different opinions of what would be the "most fitting" death for the greatest loyalist champion in the history of the Imperium. You seem to think that the "most fitting" death for Sigismund should result from losing a duel to Abaddon, who should be the greatest Traitor champion. I do not (though I definitely see the appeal/logic of that approach) That said, I would still look forward to how you handle it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Achilles kills Hector. But it's not a fight in a vacuum. Dude. Space Troy! This has to happen! http://vintagespace.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/deep-space-home-and-buzz.jpg This joke may take a minute to sink in. You'll hate me once it does. Myrmidons, something something Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4192673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 'And Sigismund head rolled.... Abaddon disappointed in the death of the last true believer stops his Crusade and goes into the Eye' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4194755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 If I was a trans-human Space Marine legend loyal to the Throne, I would would want my twin hearts to explode at the age 3,000 while hacking down everyone because everyone was beneath me save for the gods to whom I would soon be testing my blade against. I can easily see why people would be upset if Sigismund goes down to Abbaddon. He goes down failing. Abbaddon's Black Crusades are have done a 180 in the minds of some people. Gone from failure to success at every turn. Unstoppable force of destruction that can't be defeated. That's cool if you like that amount of Grimdark. And I do at times. But when we read about it and knowing that that is the fate I can't help but feel weighted down by the "setting armor" that comes with it. Kinda similar to the Primarchs in HH series. There are great stories to tell but I at times I rather just have them as larger than life forces in the background. That all said, I think It is still awesomely heroic if Sigismund goes down versus Abbaddon. For a hero like that to give your last breath trying to stave off darkness...If i couldn't have my dream death (see top) I'd take trying to take down the Antichrist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4200737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Well it's sad from the other point - Adaddon was never in one range with Sigismund. At Terra Sigi would have chopped Abby like a tree he is. But at the First Black Crusade - Sigismund is old, past his prime. Abaddon on the other hand have backing of Chaos Gods, the most powerful daemon sword and a lot of choppy experience from the interlegions war in the Eye. That's unfair - but that is W40K - fair is not a word for this Galaxy! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4200820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 You know, I never got that deep into Black Templar lore. But the more people hype up Sigismund and the more they casually say he'd chop up Abaddon in a fight, it makes him sound.....kind of one dimensional and bland. Maybe losing for once would do his character some good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300714-talon-of-horus/page/6/#findComment-4200859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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