Talon of Horus

[Vesper]

Well it's sad from the other point - Adaddon was never in one range with Sigismund.

At Terra Sigi would have chopped Abby like a tree he is.

But at the First Black Crusade - Sigismund is old, past his prime. Abaddon on the other hand have backing of Chaos Gods, the most powerful daemon sword and a lot of choppy experience from the interlegions war in the Eye.

That's unfair - but that is W40K - fair is not a word for this Galaxy!

To be fair, we don't know if Abaddon got the support of the Chaos gods at that point, and same for the daemon sword. And we don't know what would've happened if they met on Terra because they simply were on different places. Abaddon was hacking his way into the Palace while Sigismund was... around, I guess ?

[DarKnight]

Well it's sad from the other point - Adaddon was never in one range with Sigismund.

At Terra Sigi would have chopped Abby like a tree he is.

But at the First Black Crusade - Sigismund is old, past his prime. Abaddon on the other hand have backing of Chaos Gods, the most powerful daemon sword and a lot of choppy experience from the interlegions war in the Eye.

That's unfair - but that is W40K - fair is not a word for this Galaxy!

To be fair, we don't know if Abaddon got the support of the Chaos gods at that point, and same for the daemon sword. And we don't know what would've happened if they met on Terra because they simply were on different places. Abaddon was hacking his way into the Palace while Sigismund was... around, I guess ?

Was Abaddon "hacking his way into the Palace" before or after he ran away from the battle when his daddy kicked the bucket? We know about Sigismund's exploits (not in detail but I'm sure it's coming) all we know is that Abaddon was there to take the Talon off of Horus' rapidly cooling corpse, so he was probably aboard the Vengeful Spirit at the time.

[Firepower]

You know, I never got that deep into Black Templar lore.

 

But the more people hype up Sigismund and the more they casually say he'd chop up Abaddon in a fight, it makes him sound.....kind of one dimensional and bland.

 

Maybe losing for once would do his character some good.

 

Aside from being an honorable chap and something of a brutal realist, the main character feature of Sigismund is that he was singularly the most deadly fighter in all the Legions, barring only the Primarchs.

 

Which is cool, but doesn't do much for depth.  That is exactly why we need more lore to flesh him out. ;)

[Loesh]

Aside from being an honorable chap and something of a brutal realist, the main character feature of Sigismund is that he was singularly the most deadly fighter in all the Legions, barring only the Primarchs.

Which is cool, but doesn't do much for depth. That is exactly why we need more lore to flesh him out.

Now, here's the thing. When anyone ever​ tells me in a setting where there's loads and loads of characters that 'X is singularly the most deadly character in the setting.' I just kind of look at them glassy eyed and say 'Do they have a cat called Guenhwyver too?' such stark absolutes I feel devalue anything they are put into. For example I like Lucius the Eternal as the 'best swordsmen ever in all the legions' but I also like in some fights he straight up lost the duel like with Gaviel Loken, I feel the failure was meaningful and makes his later rematch and victory all the more important.

Hell, I don't like how they did Nyoka Sharrowkyns duel but I do like the concept of a fight that Lucius will likely never Nyoka back for, because it triggered his soul searching leading to his fight with Sanakhet.

Funnily enough for anyone who knows my posting history, this is the exact problem I have with Abaddon too(Though not as bad as he actually lost many battles like a couple of the Black Crusades.), when a character is portrayed as having a perfect track record I find them kind of bland and uninteresting, granted I don't know that Sigismund has a perfect track record but the closest i'v ever heard of him losing anything is his fight with Sevatar, which I don't really count as a 'loss' considering he cheated.

[Firepower]

The 'deadliest of fighters' thing is actually from his entry/rules in the Forgeworld book.  It pretty much says 'He's solid in every way, but what really got him to his rank is that he is simply the most capable fighter in all the Legions.'

 

Of course such things are always circumstantial, but yeah, it's relatively solid that Sigismund is very likely to come out on top in any fight against anything but a Primarch.  

 

Take that as you will.

[Loesh]

The 'deadliest of fighters' thing is actually from his entry/rules in the Forgeworld book.  It pretty much says 'He's solid in every way, but what really got him to his rank is that he is simply the most capable fighter in all the Legions.'

 

Of course such things are always circumstantial, but yeah, it's relatively solid that Sigismund is very likely to come out on top in any fight against anything but a Primarch.  

 

Take that as you will.

 

I'm not disputing that.

 

Simply saying that 'success' is about as exciting a characteristic as dishwater. :p

[Jareddm]

The 'deadliest of fighters' thing is actually from his entry/rules in the Forgeworld book. It pretty much says 'He's solid in every way, but what really got him to his rank is that he is simply the most capable fighter in all the Legions.'

Of course such things are always circumstantial, but yeah, it's relatively solid that Sigismund is very likely to come out on top in any fight against anything but a Primarch.

Take that as you will.

I'm not disputing that.

Simply saying that 'success' is about as exciting a characteristic as dishwater.

Completely agree. Replace 'success' with 'pure' and I start getting 5e Grey Knight flashbacks.

[Firepower]

I'm not disagreeing with you, per se.  I agree that there definitely needs to be more than a character than 'really good at things.'  But as it stands in the fluff right now (the fluff that I'm familiar with, mind you), there's not much more to Sigismund than that.  Honorable, realistic, but mostly just super deadly hero.

 

There's a butt load of fluff in general that I haven't read, though.  I'm sure there are books/audio books and such mentioning him that I'm not privy to.

[b1soul]

 

Aside from being an honorable chap and something of a brutal realist, the main character feature of Sigismund is that he was singularly the most deadly fighter in all the Legions, barring only the Primarchs.

 

Which is cool, but doesn't do much for depth. That is exactly why we need more lore to flesh him out. ;)

 

Now, here's the thing. When anyone ever​ tells me in a setting where there's loads and loads of characters that 'X is singularly the most deadly character in the setting.' I just kind of look at them glassy eyed and say 'Do they have a cat called Guenhwyver too?' such stark absolutes I feel devalue anything they are put into. For example I like Lucius the Eternal as the 'best swordsmen ever in all the legions' but I also like in some fights he straight up lost the duel like with Gaviel Loken, I feel the failure was meaningful and makes his later rematch and victory all the more important.

 

Hell, I don't like how they did Nyoka Sharrowkyns duel but I do like the concept of a fight that Lucius will likely never Nyoka back for, because it triggered his soul searching leading to his fight with Sanakhet.

 

Funnily enough for anyone who knows my posting history, this is the exact problem I have with Abaddon too(Though not as bad as he actually lost many battles like a couple of the Black Crusades.), when a character is portrayed as having a perfect track record I find them kind of bland and uninteresting, granted I don't know that Sigismund has a perfect track record but the closest i'v ever heard of him losing anything is his fight with Sevatar, which I don't really count as a 'loss' considering he cheated.

It's the concept of odds...if all the Astartes top champions are boxers, Sigismund would have over 50 odds against any other champion in the absence of extraordinary circumstances (e.g. Sig is injured or his weapon or armour is inferior, the environment somehow favours his opponent, etc.)

 

This is a far cry from being unbeatable

 

P.S. the Sig vs. Sev fight would either be a No Contest or Win by DQ (cheater loses)...but I think it was more of an NC since ADB describes it as Sev's way of preventing Sig from winning (Sev was tired of the duel and probably wanted to go to bed)

[Loesh]

 

It's the concept of odds...if all the Astartes top champions are boxers, Sigismund would have over 50 odds against any other champion in the absence of extraordinary circumstances (e.g. Sig is injured or his weapon or armour is inferior, the environment somehow favours his opponent, etc.)

 

This is a far cry from being unbeatable

 

P.S. the Sig vs. Sev fight would either be a No Contest or Win by DQ (cheater loses)...but I think it was more of an NC since ADB describes it as Sev's way of preventing Sig from winning (Sev was tired of the duel and probably wanted to go to bed)

 

 

Well yes, the concept of odds is a valid one but....has it ever shown Sigismund being beaten before this? if even during this?

 

If he has nothing but a 100% track record then what point is there in casting doubt on the statistic? the statistic doesn't matter because it's never come into play.

[Vesper]

Well it's sad from the other point - Adaddon was never in one range with Sigismund.

At Terra Sigi would have chopped Abby like a tree he is.

But at the First Black Crusade - Sigismund is old, past his prime. Abaddon on the other hand have backing of Chaos Gods, the most powerful daemon sword and a lot of choppy experience from the interlegions war in the Eye.

That's unfair - but that is W40K - fair is not a word for this Galaxy!

To be fair, we don't know if Abaddon got the support of the Chaos gods at that point, and same for the daemon sword. And we don't know what would've happened if they met on Terra because they simply were on different places. Abaddon was hacking his way into the Palace while Sigismund was... around, I guess ?

Was Abaddon "hacking his way into the Palace" before or after he ran away from the battle when his daddy kicked the bucket? We know about Sigismund's exploits (not in detail but I'm sure it's coming) all we know is that Abaddon was there to take the Talon off of Horus' rapidly cooling corpse, so he was probably aboard the Vengeful Spirit at the time.

According to FW, the SoH's first company was already deep into the Palace killing everything in its path (not my words, just FW's) before the final events. Abaddon probably teleported to the Vengeful Spirit around the time Horus lowered the shields. That's why he was aboard, fighting Imperial Fist terminators before Horus died.

And I have yet to understand how Horus, who was "erased from reality" managed to talk and still have a corpse and stuff while not existing at all. Can't wait to see how they manage to think of something half credible with that incoherence.

[Loesh]

 

According to FW, the SoH's first company was already deep into the Palace killing everything in its path (not my words, just FW's) before the final events. Abaddon probably teleported to the Vengeful Spirit around the time Horus lowered the shields. That's why he was aboard, fighting Imperial Fist terminators before Horus died.

And I have yet to understand how Horus, who was "erased from reality" managed to talk and still have a corpse and stuff while not existing at all. Can't wait to see how they manage to think of something half credible with that incoherence.

 

 

 

It was an immense psychic attack, it's safe to assume it erased his soul but perhaps not his body.

[Sandlemad]

 

 

It's the concept of odds...if all the Astartes top champions are boxers, Sigismund would have over 50 odds against any other champion in the absence of extraordinary circumstances (e.g. Sig is injured or his weapon or armour is inferior, the environment somehow favours his opponent, etc.)

 

This is a far cry from being unbeatable

 

P.S. the Sig vs. Sev fight would either be a No Contest or Win by DQ (cheater loses)...but I think it was more of an NC since ADB describes it as Sev's way of preventing Sig from winning (Sev was tired of the duel and probably wanted to go to bed)

 

 

Well yes, the concept of odds is a valid one but....has it ever shown Sigismund being beaten before this? if even during this?

 

If he has nothing but a 100% track record then what point is there in casting doubt on the statistic? the statistic doesn't matter because it's never come into play.

 

 

If you're interested, John French's Templar gives a good bit of detail into Sigismund's character, at least before the siege of Terra. It's interesting to see the mind of someone who, yes, is the best one-on-one fighter around but, more to the point, has a very widespread reputation as the best one-on-one fighter around. There's some decent notes on his doubts and his (at the time) hesitancy to actually put that talent to use in killing his former brothers.

 

It'll be a heroic death. It'll mean a lot in the context of the wider Imperium but also as character development for Sigismund.

[Vesper]

 

 

According to FW, the SoH's first company was already deep into the Palace killing everything in its path (not my words, just FW's) before the final events. Abaddon probably teleported to the Vengeful Spirit around the time Horus lowered the shields. That's why he was aboard, fighting Imperial Fist terminators before Horus died.

And I have yet to understand how Horus, who was "erased from reality" managed to talk and still have a corpse and stuff while not existing at all. Can't wait to see how they manage to think of something half credible with that incoherence.

 

 

 

It was an immense psychic attack, it's safe to assume it erased his soul but perhaps not his body.

 

Can you talk without a soul ? Shouldn't he be dead by then ?

[Conn Eremon]

Wasn't he? I don't recall him doing anything but be dragged lifelessly away after being soul-erased.

[Vesper]

Well after being "soul-erased", the Chaos gods leave him, Horus still realizes he has been used and tricked by the Chaos gods and says he's sorry and all. Soul erasement seems to suck big time.

The whole scene looks like he died from heart attack or something.

[Conn Eremon]

The soul-erasure happens after the Chaos Gods leave him and he has his moment of lucidity, not before.

[Vesper]

Nope. It happens before, and it is what seemingly triggers the fact that the Chaos gods abandon him to die.

[Conn Eremon]

Gah, I don't have the source on me, and it has been a while since I've read it so I could be remembering incorrectly.

 

But isn't it:

1. Horus kills janitor

2. Emperor hardens heart and hits Horus with an overwhelming psychic attack, leaving him near death

3. Chaos Gods flee, Horus apologizes in moment of lucidity

4. Emperor hits him with a final, soul-flaying attack before collapsing himself

5. Everyone else shows up in time to drag their fathers away, presumably trading tear-soaked insults

[Vesper]

4 is actually 2. Add death to 3, and that's it.

It doesn't make any sense, I'm with you, but that's always what has been stated.

[Conn Eremon]

Eh, either way, we'll be getting a new scene for it anyways. Eventually.

[Loesh]

Whenever I think about Horus, the Emperor, and their death, this is all I hear in my head.

[HeritorA]

Lore says Abby got the Talon - sooo, Abby got the Talon. And with that Talon Sigi would be splashed

[DarKnight]

 

 

 

Well it's sad from the other point - Adaddon was never in one range with Sigismund.

At Terra Sigi would have chopped Abby like a tree he is.

 

But at the First Black Crusade - Sigismund is old, past his prime. Abaddon on the other hand have backing of Chaos Gods, the most powerful daemon sword  and a lot of choppy experience from the interlegions war in the Eye.

 

That's unfair - but that is W40K - fair is not a word for this Galaxy!  :)

 

 

To be fair, we don't know if Abaddon got the support of the Chaos gods at that point, and same for the daemon sword. And we don't know what would've happened if they met on Terra because they simply were on different places. Abaddon was hacking his way into the Palace while Sigismund was... around, I guess ?

Was Abaddon "hacking his way into the Palace" before or after he ran away from the battle when his daddy kicked the bucket? We know about Sigismund's exploits (not in detail but I'm sure it's coming) all we know is that Abaddon was there to take the Talon off of Horus' rapidly cooling corpse, so he was probably aboard the Vengeful Spirit at the time.

According to FW, the SoH's first company was already deep into the Palace killing everything in its path (not my words, just FW's) before the final events. Abaddon probably teleported to the Vengeful Spirit around the time Horus lowered the shields. That's why he was aboard, fighting Imperial Fist terminators before Horus died.

And I have yet to understand how Horus, who was "erased from reality" managed to talk and still have a corpse and stuff while not existing at all. Can't wait to see how they manage to think of something half credible with that incoherence.

Which Forgeworld book talks about this?

[Vesper]

Well it's sad from the other point - Adaddon was never in one range with Sigismund.

At Terra Sigi would have chopped Abby like a tree he is.

But at the First Black Crusade - Sigismund is old, past his prime. Abaddon on the other hand have backing of Chaos Gods, the most powerful daemon sword and a lot of choppy experience from the interlegions war in the Eye.

That's unfair - but that is W40K - fair is not a word for this Galaxy!

To be fair, we don't know if Abaddon got the support of the Chaos gods at that point, and same for the daemon sword. And we don't know what would've happened if they met on Terra because they simply were on different places. Abaddon was hacking his way into the Palace while Sigismund was... around, I guess ?

Was Abaddon "hacking his way into the Palace" before or after he ran away from the battle when his daddy kicked the bucket? We know about Sigismund's exploits (not in detail but I'm sure it's coming) all we know is that Abaddon was there to take the Talon off of Horus' rapidly cooling corpse, so he was probably aboard the Vengeful Spirit at the time.

According to FW, the SoH's first company was already deep into the Palace killing everything in its path (not my words, just FW's) before the final events. Abaddon probably teleported to the Vengeful Spirit around the time Horus lowered the shields. That's why he was aboard, fighting Imperial Fist terminators before Horus died.

And I have yet to understand how Horus, who was "erased from reality" managed to talk and still have a corpse and stuff while not existing at all. Can't wait to see how they manage to think of something half credible with that incoherence.

Which Forgeworld book talks about this?

Must've been Betrayal. Even though it's something canon from a long time. In Execution Hour, Abaddon recalls leading the Sons of Horus in the sanctum of the Inner Palace. That stuff had been quoted in the 3.5 Chaos codex :

"He remembered the howl of triumph from a million chaos-altered throats as he, Abaddon, First Chosen of the Warmaster, led the sweeping charge over the crumbled ruins of the outer walls of the impostor Emperor's refuge on Earth and into the sanctum of the Inner Palace itself."

Execution Hour, by Gordon Rennie