Talon of Horus

[Marshal Rohr]

Aside from being an honorable chap and something of a brutal realist, the main character feature of Sigismund is that he was singularly the most deadly fighter in all the Legions, barring only the Primarchs.

Which is cool, but doesn't do much for depth. That is exactly why we need more lore to flesh him out.

Now, here's the thing. When anyone ever​ tells me in a setting where there's loads and loads of characters that 'X is singularly the most deadly character in the setting.' I just kind of look at them glassy eyed and say 'Do they have a cat called Guenhwyver too?' such stark absolutes I feel devalue anything they are put into. For example I like Lucius the Eternal as the 'best swordsmen ever in all the legions' but I also like in some fights he straight up lost the duel like with Gaviel Loken, I feel the failure was meaningful and makes his later rematch and victory all the more important.

Hell, I don't like how they did Nyoka Sharrowkyns duel but I do like the concept of a fight that Lucius will likely never Nyoka back for, because it triggered his soul searching leading to his fight with Sanakhet.

Funnily enough for anyone who knows my posting history, this is the exact problem I have with Abaddon too(Though not as bad as he actually lost many battles like a couple of the Black Crusades.), when a character is portrayed as having a perfect track record I find them kind of bland and uninteresting, granted I don't know that Sigismund has a perfect track record but the closest i'v ever heard of him losing anything is his fight with Sevatar, which I don't really count as a 'loss' considering he cheated.

You'll count Loken punching Lucius in a sword fight as valid, but you don't count Sevatar head butting Sigismund to win? That doesn't follow.

Edit: Also we know Sigismund would chop up Abaddon at the siege. Forge world gave us rules that tell us so ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Loken and Lucius never had specified rules for dueling. Mainly because it was a sparring match, not a duel. Sevatar and Sigismund were actually in a duel and it was forfeited when Sevatar punched him. It actually is two different circumstances.

[Firepower]

What book did the Sig v Sev duel happen in?

[Kol Saresk]

What book did the Sig v Sev duel happen in?

In Prince of Crows, Sev remininsces about how one time he and Sig dueled in front of their Legions and Sev got tired of the fact that it was taking hours, so he punched out Sig and lost the duel because it was against the rules.

[Loesh]

Essentially, it's the same scenario but how they frame them is different.

[Lord Blackwood]

 

What book did the Sig v Sev duel happen in?

In Prince of Crows, Sev remininsces about how one time he and Sig dueled in front of their Legions and Sev got tired of the fact that it was taking hours, so he punched out Sig and lost the duel because it was against the rules.

 

punched out ? 

 

He didint punch out anyone ,  he  headbutted him  like a punk bitch and sigismund laughed it off 

 

 

 

"He’d cheated, in the end. He finished the duel, as hundreds of warriors from both Legions looked on, by headbutting the Templar and disqualifying himself. It broke the rules, as well as Sigismund’s winning streak. True to his nature, Sigismund had done nothing but laugh. The proud stoicism the First Captain of the Fists was so famous for didn’t bleach all humanity from his humour. Sevatar had always envied him that, for he found it very difficult to laugh, to joke, to bond effortlessly with brothers in arms.

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Prince of Crows (Kindle Locations 759-763). Black Library. "

[karden00]

 

 

What book did the Sig v Sev duel happen in?

In Prince of Crows, Sev remininsces about how one time he and Sig dueled in front of their Legions and Sev got tired of the fact that it was taking hours, so he punched out Sig and lost the duel because it was against the rules.

 

punched out ? 

 

He didint punch out anyone ,  he  headbutted him  like a punk bitch and sigismund laughed it off 

 

 

 

"He’d cheated, in the end. He finished the duel, as hundreds of warriors from both Legions looked on, by headbutting the Templar and disqualifying himself. It broke the rules, as well as Sigismund’s winning streak. True to his nature, Sigismund had done nothing but laugh. The proud stoicism the First Captain of the Fists was so famous for didn’t bleach all humanity from his humour. Sevatar had always envied him that, for he found it very difficult to laugh, to joke, to bond effortlessly with brothers in arms.

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Prince of Crows (Kindle Locations 759-763). Black Library. "

 

How does disqualifying himself end the duel and Sigismund's winning streak? I read this on a plane to Hawaii, so I was several Mai Tai's in, but if you get disqualified....you don't end your opponent's streak?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I would say its because Siggy technically didnt win the duel. 

Two seeming evenly matched opponents could not find a weakness in the other, and so Sevatar did what he does when the rules or logic constrain him: he cheated.

 

by cheating, and ending the duel, neither was truly the victor over the other.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

I would say its because Siggy technically didnt win the duel.

 

Two seeming evenly matched opponents could not find a weakness in the other, and so Sevatar did what he does when the rules or logic constrain him: he cheated.

 

by cheating, and ending the duel, neither was truly the victor over the other.

 

WLK

Exactly. On the one hand, you have Sev saying he beat Sigismund by keeping him from winning and as a result, making it so there is always one duel that, while not a loss, isn't a win. Meanwhile, Siggy- and more importantly, the 40K Imperial historians whose POV the background is based on- can say 1.)it wasn't a loss, which is true, and 2.)on the days he(or the historians) feel really petty, he can just say it didn't count.

 

Thus allowing one to say he beat the undefeatable while the other can still say that he is undefeatable.

[Marshal Rohr]

I took more issue with the fact people were saying being the best fighter in the legions made Sigismund a weak character. Like come on. The fists have zero cool themes, no author will spend the time fleshing them out like the wolves, 1Ksons, alphas, night lords, and ADBs Dark Angels. They suffer so heavily from 'loyalist' syndrome that even the supposedly generic Ultramarines have miles more unique facets than the Fists.

 

Just let us :cuss have something cool.

[Kriegsmacht]

The Palace fortifications looks cool and pretty. So nice all the legions had to come to earth to see it. Have to give you IFs that. :)

[Kol Saresk]

I took more issue with the fact people were saying being the best fighter in the legions made Sigismund a weak character. Like come on. The fists have zero cool themes, no author will spend the time fleshing them out like the wolves, 1Ksons, alphas, night lords, and ADBs Dark Angels. They suffer so heavily from 'loyalist' syndrome that even the supposedly generic Ultramarines have miles more unique facets than the Fists.

 

Just let us :cuss have something cool.

I don't know, a floating planet is pretty big + in my book.

[Marshal Rohr]

What do we know about it in 30K? We know Nostramo has mountain lions and even the beetles on Caliban aren't afraid of humans. We know the lords of the Calibanites wore iron circlets. We know tattooing you hands red for failure was a Nostraman tradition. We know tapping your chest three times is a Cthonian gesture of sincerity.

 

We don't have anything like that for the Fists.

 

All we know is that they have the center for attacking ships good and wanna attack fortresses good too in orbit above Terra and their first captain is cool. That's about it.

[Visitor13]

Didn't Ben Counter and the Fists supplement flesh out the Phalanx?

 

EDIT: You were talking about the 30k Phalanx, nevermind then.

 

 

Anyway, I really loved the IF boarding drill in French's Crimson Fist. Though the other legions' drills most likely look pretty much the same, the whole scene screamed Imperial Fists to me.

[Loesh]

I took more issue with the fact people were saying being the best fighter in the legions made Sigismund a weak character. Like come on. The fists have zero cool themes, no author will spend the time fleshing them out like the wolves, 1Ksons, alphas, night lords, and ADBs Dark Angels. They suffer so heavily from 'loyalist' syndrome that even the supposedly generic Ultramarines have miles more unique facets than the Fists.

Just let us have something cool.

You can have something cool, cool is a very subjective term. So far it's been less cool for me and more....bland.

[Marshal Rohr]

I took more issue with the fact people were saying being the best fighter in the legions made Sigismund a weak character. Like come on. The fists have zero cool themes, no author will spend the time fleshing them out like the wolves, 1Ksons, alphas, night lords, and ADBs Dark Angels. They suffer so heavily from 'loyalist' syndrome that even the supposedly generic Ultramarines have miles more unique facets than the Fists.

Just let us have something cool.

You can have something cool, cool is a very subjective term. So far it's been less cool for me and more....bland.

You are a III Legion fan. It's hard to impress you guys :P

[Loesh]

You are a III Legion fan. It's hard to impress you guys

Fair enough. I mean like I said, i'v never gotten deep into Sigismunds character so he could be a super cool dude, just going off what i'v heard.

And he is by NO stretch of the imagination the worst the Warhammer 40k universe has to offer.

[Firepower]

I took more issue with the fact people were saying being the best fighter in the legions made Sigismund a weak character. Like come on. The fists have zero cool themes, no author will spend the time fleshing them out like the wolves, 1Ksons, alphas, night lords, and ADBs Dark Angels. They suffer so heavily from 'loyalist' syndrome that even the supposedly generic Ultramarines have miles more unique facets than the Fists.

Just let us have something cool.

I don't know, a floating planet is pretty big + in my book.

As opposed to all those sinking planets... :D

[Kol Saresk]

I took more issue with the fact people were saying being the best fighter in the legions made Sigismund a weak character. Like come on. The fists have zero cool themes, no author will spend the time fleshing them out like the wolves, 1Ksons, alphas, night lords, and ADBs Dark Angels. They suffer so heavily from 'loyalist' syndrome that even the supposedly generic Ultramarines have miles more unique facets than the Fists.

Just let us have something cool.

I don't know, a floating planet is pretty big + in my book.

As opposed to all those sinking planets... :D

Well, more like "stationary". It's like everyone else is stuck on a continent but you get a continent that moves and has enough firepower to reduce the other continents to dust and that isn't even with your navy, which also happens to be the biggest independent navy around. Not to mention the most capable.

[Loesh]

It's interesting, reading the Talon of Horus again and going over Khayons thoughts on the other eight Legions, it kind of reminds me of the debates of Nature vs Nurture in my psychology classes, hell that's actually exactly what it is.

 

It really gives the Black Legion a sense of purpose in how they cleave away from the old ways to create something new and unique, a bond of brothers without brothers who want to become something more then they are. I feel like Khayon could and probably is a powerful speaker who could turn a large warband to the Black Legions cause and over the last ten thousand years i'm sure the Black Legion feels just as valid if not more then the other eight.

 

Yet at the same time, I cannot help but feel that he too is mistaken.

 

At one point in the book he talks about how so many see themselves as nothing but flawed reflections of their fathers who see validity in no other way of life, yet even in the Black Legion is Khayon not a reflection of his father? Even now I look at him and I see so much of Magnus inside this most wayward son, even if he won't acknowledge it. Not just in the superficiality of being a sorcerer but the way he talks to his brothers who are long dead, how he seems to be the only voice of reason even in a room of madness, and that craving for brotherhood under the surface that he tries to hide so well, those are all things that are so like the Crimson King. I almost feel that in denying that, he has become more like his father then ever because is his defiance not as misguided and flawed as Magnus and his defiance of the Changer of Ways?

 

You can say you are so much more then your fathers, and in a way you are, but so much of your being comes from them. Is that not true for Telemachon whose voice and grace are so much like Fulgrim? or Lheor whose consumed by rage but is also so down to earth like Angron even when sailing through hell(Even if that rage undermines the practicality a bit.)? Or even Abaddon whose father was a failure but he still takes on the mantle of Warmaster and completing the work he had done? The answer is simple, because the question is simple, in a way none of them can escape where they came from and those fathers they so despise are part of what makes them so great. Is it crazy then that the other eight cling to the past?

 

They have lost the past, but their past is the greatest weapon for paving a way towards a new future.

[Sandlemad]

It's interesting, reading the Talon of Horus again and going over Khayons thoughts on the other eight Legions, it kind of reminds me of the debates of Nature vs Nurture in my psychology classes, hell that's actually exactly what it is.

 

It really gives the Black Legion a sense of purpose in how they cleave away from the old ways to create something new and unique, a bond of brothers without brothers who want to become something more then they are. I feel like Khayon could and probably is a powerful speaker who could turn a large warband to the Black Legions cause and over the last ten thousand years i'm sure the Black Legion feels just as valid if not more then the other eight.

 

Yet at the same time, I cannot help but feel that he too is mistaken.

 

At one point in the book he talks about how so many see themselves as nothing but flawed reflections of their fathers who see validity in no other way of life, yet even in the Black Legion is Khayon not a reflection of his father? Even now I look at him and I see so much of Magnus inside this most wayward son, even if he won't acknowledge it. Not just in the superficiality of being a sorcerer but the way he talks to his brothers who are long dead, how he seems to be the only voice of reason even in a room of madness, and that craving for brotherhood under the surface that he tries to hide so well, those are all things that are so like the Crimson King. I almost feel that in denying that, he has become more like his father then ever because is his defiance not as misguided and flawed as Magnus and his defiance of the Changer of Ways?

 

You can say you are so much more then your fathers, and in a way you are, but so much of your being comes from them. Is that not true for Telemachon whose voice and grace are so much like Fulgrim? or Lheor whose consumed by rage but is also so down to earth like Angron even when sailing through hell(Even if that rage undermines the practicality a bit.)? Or even Abaddon whose father was a failure but he still takes on the mantle of Warmaster and completing the work he had done? The answer is simple, because the question is simple, in a way none of them can escape where they came from and those fathers they so despise are part of what makes them so great. Is it crazy then that the other eight cling to the past?

 

They have lost the past, but their past is the greatest weapon for paving a way towards a new future.

 

I think Khayon is not denying the fact that he (and most of the characters in the book) are massively influenced by their fathers, so much as saying that they should not be and need to move past it. He's scornful of how letting it be the only thing that defines them.

Becoming more than 'just' a son of Magnus or Horus or Angron is aspirational rather than purely descriptive. That's what Abaddon offers them. Khayon is still a Tizcan, still a son of Magnus but he no longer feels that what remains of his former legion offers him enough. The brotherhood and sense of purpose that they get from the Black Legion is something they no longer feel they can get from simply identifying as XII or XVI legion.

 

I don't think you're wrong in saying they cannot escape their past entirely because yeah, it is almost impossible and they are fallible. That said, I get the impression Khayon at least is fairly realistic about that and a lot of other aspects of the Black Legion.

For example when he says that what distinguishes the Black Legion from the other warbands of the Eye is that they are murderously efficient and unconcerned with glory or daemonhood, he then admits he's spent time screaming his own titles as he charges the enemy and counted their skulls. When he says that they all serve Abaddon with a single purpose, he then is then perfectly sanguine admitting that him and Telemachon have tried to kill each other dozens of times.

 

There's that great, wry manager-speak line from Abaddon, 'revelation is a process'. They're trying to be something more than they are (were?).

[Loesh]

 

 

I think Khayon is not denying the fact that he (and most of the characters in the book) are massively influenced by their fathers, so much as saying that they should not be and need to move past it. He's scornful of how letting it be the only thing that defines them.

Becoming more than 'just' a son of Magnus or Horus or Angron is aspirational rather than purely descriptive. That's what Abaddon offers them. Khayon is still a Tizcan, still a son of Magnus but he no longer feels that what remains of his former legion offers him enough. The brotherhood and sense of purpose that they get from the Black Legion is something they no longer feel they can get from simply identifying as XII or XVI legion.

 

 

 

Yeah, but I suppose what gets me is that while he said this, he comes off as being a lot more like Magnus then other Thousand Sons if what i'm trying to say, where the more they push away it seems like the closer they get. The people who represent the Black Legion here actually are some of the portrayals that remind me the most of their gene-fathers, you could even say their break from their Primarchs is almost reflective of their primarchs break from the Emperor.

 

Fitting then that Abaddon would kill Horus, like how Horus killed the Emperor.

[Sandlemad]

I get what you're saying and it will definitely be interesting to see if that changes as the series goes on. Abaddon is certainly more charismatic and Horus-like than he was during the crusade, even given different portrayals. Lheor and Telemachon seem like Angron and Fulgrim at their best, before the nails and general corruption changed them.

 

Not sure I quite see it with Khayon - Magnus is a lot more gregarious and charming, albeit arrogant, than his fairly restrained son - but we're likely to see a lot more character development from him as the books continue.

[b1soul]

 

What book did the Sig v Sev duel happen in?

In Prince of Crows, Sev remininsces about how one time he and Sig dueled in front of their Legions and Sev got tired of the fact that it was taking hours, so he punched out Sig and lost the duel because it was against the rules.

Sev never "punched out" Sig...I recall it was a head-butt. Sigismund took it in good humour...no mention of Sig being knocked out by it. Sig just laughs it off

 

Edit: Agree on the point that a win by DQ is not the same as a "real" win

[Kol Saresk]

Yes, that was pointed out earlier and since the point itself carried and the proper quote was posted, I saw no need to adjust it since it was right there.