Are GKs actually the best at fighting Daemons?

[Ultramarine Blue]

I've never fought against Daemons so sorry if this is a stupid question but are GKs any good?

 

I ask because GKs don't really have enough melee attacks to destroy Daemons and even if they do, Daemons still get their invulnerable save.

 

Also, why do GK weapons have an ap? It seems kinda pointless when they're designed to kill Daemons who wear no armour.

 

Isn't an army like IG more likely to destroy Daemons?

[EnterRehab]

It depends on how they're playing, but it's like fighting any zergy army, except you reroll almost everything just because.

 

Use your templates to cover lots of enemies.  Run them purifiers and dreadknights.

 

Gotta remember that things like Cleansing flame are crazy good, banishment and sanctuary are awesome.  Force activation allows you to reroll wounds on demons, pretty sure.  I don't have my codex on me, but need to confirm.

 

I ran a 700pt deathstar + dreadknight vs. 1100 points in demons and ended in a tie.

[jeffersonian000]

Unfortunately, Banishment is not a hard counter to Daemons, although it can help situationally. Daemons still have FMCs that GK struggle to deal with directly due to limited AA options. We just have to fall back on the "Monobuild" we field against everyone else, and burn burn burn while we pew pew pew.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Caloth]

It depends on how they're playing, but it's like fighting any zergy army, except you reroll almost everything just because.

 

Use your templates to cover lots of enemies. Run them purifiers and dreadknights.

 

Gotta remember that things like Cleansing flame are crazy good, banishment and sanctuary are awesome. Force activation allows you to reroll wounds on demons, pretty sure. I don't have my codex on me, but need to confirm.

 

I ran a 700pt deathstar + dreadknight vs. 1100 points in demons and ended in a tie.

The daemonbane rule is what allows you to re-roll vs daemons when force is active

[EnterRehab]

 

It depends on how they're playing, but it's like fighting any zergy army, except you reroll almost everything just because.

 

Use your templates to cover lots of enemies. Run them purifiers and dreadknights.

 

Gotta remember that things like Cleansing flame are crazy good, banishment and sanctuary are awesome. Force activation allows you to reroll wounds on demons, pretty sure. I don't have my codex on me, but need to confirm.

 

I ran a 700pt deathstar + dreadknight vs. 1100 points in demons and ended in a tie.

The daemonbane rule is what allows you to re-roll vs daemons when force is active

 

 

Fortunately, I think all GK melee weapons are Daemonbane, so theres that.

[Ishagu]

Eldar are better at fighting Deamons...

[EnterRehab]

More guns are better at fighting daemons..

[calvin the wraithlord]

Eldar are better at fighting Deamons...

 

Eldar are better at  everything than anyone else in 40k, so no surprise there

[Brom MKIV]

I face daemons quite a bit and while we have some excellent tools to deal with them the reverse is also true. Our ranged weaponry mows them down  in droves with PE and our warp charge defense helps curb their ridiculous psych phase while grenades can snipe their hidden psykers. Active force handles multi wound beasts especially with gatling psilencers which are excellent in this match, miles ahead of the incinerators IME. Banishment is also very useful, IF you can pull it off. 

 

Otoh daemons have more warp charge and nearly everything they field will beat most of what we have in combat. Even 90 pts of nettes will drop dreadknights and terminators. Grinders are annoyingly hard to get rid of with GK btw, especially when their invuln is modified. Summoned tz heralds is an unorthodox but nasty strategy against us since the warp charge quickly reaches critical mass after which they unleash. They are also capable of throwing down some absolutely obscene units like 20 hounds + multiple herlads with grimoire/cursed earth/invis. A true deathstar. Now banishment solves some problems but khornedogs provide a bubble of 4+ DtW, as do tz heralds and FMCs. So if you are pulling off cleansing flames I solute you. I've forced 2 through. Total.

 

I love that match but against a canny opponent its an absolute slugfest and a brainfry. Both players can often feel like the other is unbeatable.

[Ishagu]

Deamons will get nerfed next codex.

 

They have too many warp charges and too many overpowered units

[Warboss dakka slugga]

Deamons will get nerfed next codex.

 

They have too many warp charges and too many overpowered units

And grey knights dont? Every game I've gone against a gk list I've been against like d6+15!, the ability of combat squading Purifiers to get 4 charge points for the price of 2 should be faq'd

[Ishagu]

Deamons can easily start with 30+ Warpcharges and have much more broken unit combinations...

[Brom MKIV]

I tend to agree some things will get toned down for daemons. They are the better dex and still top tier. GW seems to be endeavoring to bring everyone in line with spectrum wide nerfs. That said I believe daemons will remain one of the better psych armies in the game. Its their nature. Same with GKs, and unfortunately eldar.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Ive found most larger games ive played against them to be abit of a "line up and throw dice at each other" kinda match up, not as much fun as you'd expect, smaller games can be fun though, the few heroic Gks battling a horde of bloodthirsty demons!!

[Captain Coolpants]

Well re-rolls of 1 to wound and hit is a huuuge buff, (especially for me and my :cussty rolls)

 

But that being said... This is a shooty edition, and big shooty armies like tau or IG will just stand there and pew Pew Pew until nothing is left. Le sighhhh. Wish there was a balance between Combat and shooting.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

All of the Daemon skew lists which currently keep them competitive we demolish with ease. When they bring CSM Allies we're less strong, as Obliterators are broken. We're kept out of tier 1 games by Eldar, Tau and Necrons. If the other xenos lists weren't shutting us out, we'd be stomping Daemons.

 

FMC's: The main strength of Princes and Bloodthirsters is they can close to melee quickly, without eating more than one Shooting phase. All of their ranged attacks are psychic powers, so our formidable Deny bonuses all trigger (a single Mastery 3 Librarian covering your army shuts it down). You can ignore them until they land anyway, at which point counter-assaults are entirely possible. 

 

Nurgle Grinders: 2+ cover save Soulgrinders are a pain. The solution? Charge them with Dreadknights. Their ranged game is mainly designed to kill Marines, not 2+ save units. In melee you're faster and with 'Preferred Enemy' triggering you should remove all their HP before they can swing. 

 

ScreamerStar: All of their power comes from stacking psychic buffs. Denying 'Invis' is probably most crucial, although if you can stop 'Forewarning' as well do so. On the flipside, in your own psychic phase, multiple 'Banishment's quickly undo their invul save stacking. Like with Princes, their ranged attack is a psychic power, so a Mastery 3 Libby will stop it on average dice (and it won't go through 2+ saves anyway, so you could even save your dispel for other things if need be). In melee turn on 'Force' and watch the unit melt. 

 

Dogstar: This unit mainly gets it power from the absurd amount of wounds it has. Denying 'Invis' is again the main objective. After that, gatling psilencer with 'Force' active is the primary method of demolishing the unit. In melee, Dogs don't ignore armour saves, and with 'Force' active you'll vape them everytime they fail an invul (don't forget to stack 'Banishment' on them before you charge in). 

 

As you can see, Dreadknights and Terminators are pretty important in this matchup. So I'd invest heavily in them. Purifiers are ironically probably the worst option in this matchup, as Grinders, Princes and massed shooting rip them apart. 'Cleansing Flame' itself is actually better against xenos. 

[Ultramarine Blue]

Are Tau really still top tier? I destroy them with my GKs about 68% of the time.

 

I find SM harder to kill (how I hate grav weapons)

[calvin the wraithlord]

Are Tau really still top tier? I destroy them with my GKs about 68% of the time.

 

I find SM harder to kill (how I hate grav weapons)

 

I see where your coming from with Tau, there's a fine line, they either destroy us or we destroy them, a good tau player with annihilate GKs 80% of the time whereas a less seasoned one who is used to easy wins will get an unpleasant shock if he hides behind his gunline and riptides

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Are Tau really still top tier? I destroy them with my GKs about 68% of the time.

 

You're playing against either sub-par players or sub-par lists (they usually go hand in hand). Tau can be incredibly bad, like Sisters bad, if they're built wrong. Doesn't mean they're not our worst matchup by far (their AP2 access and ability to ignore whole aspects of the game is absurd).

I find SM harder to kill (how I hate grav weapons)

 

Centurions are annoying, but they do fold in melee thankfully. You might have to sacrifice a few units to kill them, but they can only nuke 1-2 units per turn at best. Once you kill that Deathstar, Marines are a lot less scary. You'll generally roll over their other power units, Stormhammers will give you trouble though. 

[calvin the wraithlord]

 

Are Tau really still top tier? I destroy them with my GKs about 68% of the time.

 

You're playing against either sub-par players or sub-par lists (they usually go hand in hand). Tau can be incredibly bad, like Sisters bad, if they're built wrong. Doesn't mean they're not our worst matchup by far (their AP2 access and ability to ignore whole aspects of the game is absurd).

 

 

I think there a tough one but i defiantly wouldn't say there our WORST match up by far though, Eldar i think hurt us alot more, and tbh i actually fear flyer heavy necrons more than tau, ive beaten my fair share of tau players simply by rolling well, id say ive won maybe 50%ish of my games against them which yes isent great but like you said they are a damn tough one for us whereas against serpent spam or wraithspam i tend to just laugh and accept defeat. Sub-par eldar players will still faceroll us, sub-par tau, defiantly, defiantly do not.

[Captain Coolpants]

I think there a tough one but i defiantly wouldn't say there our WORST match up by far though, Eldar i think hurt us alot more, and tbh i actually fear flyer heavy necrons more than tau, ive beaten my fair share of tau players simply by rolling well, id say ive won maybe 50%ish of my games against them which yes isent great but like you said they are a damn tough one for us whereas against serpent spam or wraithspam i tend to just laugh and accept defeat. Sub-par eldar players will still faceroll us, sub-par tau, defiantly, defiantly do not.

 

Now when you wraith spam... I don't see how we can't stomp these?

 

Yeah wraithknights WILL get a good few shots in, and wraithguard/blades are all tough and shoot powerfully... But in combat, we will annihilate them 90% of the time, we will allllllways be in combat range because they only have 12" maximum shooting. And hammerhand with ap3 just makes them as easy as normal Marines to kill.

 

And dreadknights are usually in range of everything due to shunting.

Plus 2 dreadknights with hammers and teleporters are almost the same costs as 1 optimally loaded wraithknight.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The problem with Eldar is they have good odds of just melting your face off before you ever get into melee. Their insane anti-infantry output does bring down Terminators, and against Dreadknights they'll be using Wraith units and Dragons to remove their wounds. 

 

I'm actually not as worried by Scythe Crons. Their tesla spam is much better against mech or MeQ, and obviously lesser infantry. Terminators and DK's will just walk through all that. The last turn teleport onto objectives is annoying, but if you go second you can prevent that being a game winner. 

 

Tau are are our worst matchup because they have the best AP2 access in the game, across multiple platforms, and the best buff in the game for a shooting army (markerlights outclass most psychic powers, IG orders etc). 

[Ultramarine Blue]

Eldar are by far our worst match up, Darius is wrong.

 

Eldar are full of cheese and deserve all of the hate that they get. I cannot stand the players either, they're all WAAC players spamming their broken units against us.

 

How can we get close to them when their bikes allow them to JSJ? And those are troops!

 

Eldar has the best ap2 access due to bladestorm.

[Ishagu]

It's a shame about Eldar. It's a book full of interesting stuff and lots of unit synergy - you'd never know that of course, all you see is Serpents and Knights :-P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eldar are full of cheese and deserve all of the hate that they get. I cannot stand the players either, they're all WAAC players spamming their broken units against us. 

 

Not really. I don't know what kind of players you have locally, but most of my Eldar opponents have been pretty good overall. Many of them don't even take the power lists, they field assorted Aspects and all kinds of second-string Eldar units. I wouldn't be so quick to tar them all with the same brush. Not that long ago, GK players had to endure the same knee-jerk responses. 

How can we get close to them when their bikes allow them to JSJ? And those are troops!

 

Shoot them. They're only Assault Marines against enemy fire. Anyway they're not the thing you have to worry about. 

 

Eldar has the best ap2 access due to bladestorm. 

 

 

Lol, hardly. Dire Avengers are only taken for MSU, no one actually cares about worse Rending. Its Dragon fusion guns, Wraith weaponry, bright lances, suncannon etc.