Are GKs actually the best at fighting Daemons?

[Ultramarine Blue]

Well in my area Tau don't spam ap2... So you're wrong then. IG have the best access as they have 3 plasma guns per veteran squad and veterans are troops unlike crisis suits.

 

JSJ is hated on loads and you're saying shoot them? They can jump away from you... That's the problem. I see many people hating on Tau since they can JSJ but you think that it is fine for them to do it because they're as tough as a SM?

Spread that view.

 

Yes, but they still have the best access to ap2, just because they are shadowed by cheesier units it doesn't make it untrue.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well in my area Tau don't spam ap2... So you're wrong then. IG have the best access as they have 3 plasma guns per veteran squad and veterans are troops unlike crisis suits.

 

Not really. They bring plenty of AP2, and on far more durable/mobile platforms. IG Veterans are balanced by their glass cannon nature. Riptides are not. 

JSJ is hated on loads and you're saying shoot them? They can jump away from you... That's the problem. I see many people hating on Tau since they can JSJ but you think that it is fine for them to do it because they're as tough as a SM? 

Spread that view.

 

Hunt them down with jump pack units, you're faster. Shunt and/or Deepstrike will get you into range pretty rapidly. JSJ is fine, its inherently random. Jetbikes are fine, they're not a problem. Its the obscenity that is the Wave Serpent that is the problem in Troops. 

[ChaoticEric]

I agree that tau can bring almost ridiculous amounts of ap2 if they decide to. All those battlesuits with twin plasma rifles rapid firing, all that'll be left of our terminators are molten silver carcasses.

 

On the other hand it's not just about ap2 either, the amount of wound output by missilesides and sms/missile pods will force so many saves even 2+ are failed too often for comfort.

 

Once you get up close and personal it's a different matter but it's getting there that's so painful.

 

For me the balance of power is rather a way of balancing miniature sales. I'm sure tau and necrons were among the least popular armies and gw decided to change that by making them more powerful. Marines will always be on the upper half of codex-rankings as they are such a huge lump of gws revenue and basically the foundation of the entire 40k-fluff, they'd never dare messing with that.

[Ultramarine Blue]

Please people, could we get back to talking about the topic of the thread as it will likely be closed otherwise.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Blue, this topic has naturally progressed through this discussion, Darius has no need yet to close it. Seriously.

 

But to the OP, I have only played the new daemon codex twice (not big in my area), and they were great games. One was a brutal slugfest that left most of our armies dead, and the other was a tremendous victory for me, but that isnt enough data for me to really give you a solid opinion. I can tell you they are capable of some great lists, so.... id say depends on the player

[Ultramarine Blue]

... I am the OP...

[Captain Coolpants]

We get cool buffs against daemons. But armies that shoot :cuss loads at a greater range get are just better at dealing with them...

 

Daemons always get a save against us, so our low ap CC weapons mean jack :cuss most of the time.

 

Where as a long range shooty army, forces them to take saves turn 1, then even more turn 2.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Well in my area Tau don't spam ap2... So you're wrong then. IG have the best access as they have 3 plasma guns per veteran squad and veterans are troops unlike crisis suits.

 

Not really. They bring plenty of AP2, and on far more durable/mobile platforms. IG Veterans are balanced by their glass cannon nature. Riptides are not. 

 

 

Riptides are right up there with Dreadknights in the excellent category. They are vulnerable to fast moving fearless assault and their AP2 weaponry is a bit wasted on Daemons. Honestly I would rather have NDK against almost any likely Daemon list.

 

As for the rest of Tau the same tends to apply, although they can really put high quality shots downrange they are vulnerable to a big blob of fast moving bodies that has a 2++ and/or invisibility to get into assault and shut down their shooting.  Grey Knights can handle that threat much better and in a variety of ways.

 

So while Tau are a tough match for Grey Knights I think the answer to the original question would be that Grey Knights are better than Tau against Daemons. The caveat on that is that Tau can be awesome against anything that flies so a Daemon flying circus might be the exception - especially if they have the Talisman from Farsight Enclaves to help them withstand the witchfires.

[Ultramarine Blue]

We get cool buffs against daemons. But armies that shoot :cuss loads at a greater range get are just better at dealing with them...

Daemons always get a save against us, so our low ap CC weapons mean jack :cuss most of the time.

Where as a long range shooty army, forces them to take saves turn 1, then even more turn 2.

And that's why I don't see why we have ap3 CC as it is wasted.

Anyway, we can shoot them with our storm bolters then charge them; what other armies can do that (baring Eldar since they're cheesy).

[Ishagu]

Gw have a tough fight on their hands if they plan to rebalanced the Tau and Eldar codicies.

They need to severely limit the amount of Interceptor and Skyfire Tau have, as well as change the markerlight rules and to nerf their plasma to ap3.

Eldar completely need an overhaul to bring them into line in terms of power levels.

 

To get back on topic. No, grey Knights are not the best at fighting daemoms. That title would go to a shooting based army like Tau and Eldar...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Gw have a tough fight on their hands if they plan to rebalanced the Tau and Eldar codicies.

They need to severely limit the amount of Interceptor and Skyfire Tau have, as well as change the markerlight rules and to nerf their plasma to ap3.

Eldar completely need an overhaul to bring them into line in terms of power levels.

 

Not really. They would only need to change a few things in each army. Nerfing Riptides, markerlights, Wave Serpents and Warlocks would be the way to go. Once those monstrosities are dealt with, both xenos armies lose a lot of their stupid combos. 

 

Anyway, returning to the topic. I don't see how any other army fights Daemons better. Sure, they might shoot harder, but Daemons almost anyways end up in melee, due to their army's immense focus on it. if you can't realistically fight them in melee, you basically auto-lose once they reach it. Dogstar, FMC Princes/Bloodthirsters, Fiends/Chariots...they have a lot of fast and nasty assault units. Tau and Eldar might tear a few of those units apart, but they won't kill all of them. We're able to whittle down their Deathstars and threaten their MC's like few other armies can (due to our 'Preferred Enemy' buff, psycannon and gatling psilencer), and in melee we're perfect at killing them (high Strength AP3 force weapons). 

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeahhh I'm getting fed up with people bitching about certain armies because they're "too good" or whatever.

 

 

Absolutely positively no CODEX is overly better than the other.

 

It's just certain UNITS in the codecies are just too good.

 

People hate on eldar all the time because the Internet says they're too good....

 

NOOOOOO... people hate on them in real life when they spam the better units like serpents or invis star warlocks with like 12 warp charges in 1 squad spouting off powers like nobodies business.

 

And those are ONLY 2 units... They are the sole reason eldar Do well in tournaments and the sole reason people complain, but as soon as you hear 'eldar player' you instantly think "this guys probably a douche, I don't wanna play him"

 

And tau... They are indeed a very tough codex(especially for us), but they aren't that hard to deal with unless they have lots of suits and/or markerlights. And guard armies can deal with them promptly, as they arguably have just as much shooting power, but faaar more AV units. But nobody really complains about guard?.... Hmm.. Weird... They can even spam plasma better.

 

Just seems most people read something online, and maybe actually lose a game or 2 against the same army, and then their opinion is set forever.

[Ultramarine Blue]

Jbat... Are you serious? Eldar are ridiculously broken, only an Eldar player would deny their cheese!

 

Rending on basic infantry guns

Assault basic infantry guns

Battle focus

Wraith bulls***

Literally EVERYTHING has access to Wave Serpents (even wraith guard/blades)

An entire unit with S4 AP2 flamers (and I thought the new FW Riptide's flamer was broken).

An entire unit with S10 AP2 guns!

Both of the above with insta-death on a 6 and the S10 gun for less than a terminator (not our ones though).

2 units with both the benefits of walkers and MCs, yet with no drawbacks (immune to bolter fire, yet doesn't roll on the vehicle damage table AND moves 12").

Jetbikes as troops with their hideous maneuvability!

 

I could continue but I think you get how cheesy and broken the army is.

Also, you're saying that armies like DA and CSM (the weakest armies) are on par with Eldar? Wow... Just wow.

[Ishagu]

I personally don't feel Chaos Space Marines are particularly weak...

[Ultramarine Blue]

Fair enough, but DA definitely are (I forgot about CSM's IA 13 boost)

[Captain Coolpants]

Okay, so rending on squishy short ranged units it's amazing? I'm sorry but how often do you roll 6s? Lol

I've played Marines and knights for years, and my spammed psycannons and assault cannons have never won or lost me a game because of rending.

 

And those eldar guns are short range, so they would be withing rapid fire and assault range by the enemy most of the time.

 

Orks,grey knights, terminator wing armies, dark eldar, and eldar have assault guns.... So your point there is invalid as most armies have that option.

 

Wave serpents I've already said are bad when spammed. So why even mention it?

 

Yeah wraith guard have big guns.. But are extremely short ranged, so short ranged in fact, that it's actually laughably easy to stay out of range since they can't run and shoot, unless you're an idiot (or you want to charge or whatever)

 

They are also terminators expensive, but unlike terminators, they can't deepstrike or have invun saves (unless they forgo their shooting)

So will need a transport (which isn't cheap) making the unit eeeven more expensive.

And with how short ranged they are, they are always at risk of being killed in CC. Any ork/tyranid horde would basically ignore overwatch (because of numbers) and swarm them, us knight players would annihilate them in combat, any terminators will also, dark eldar have poisoned everything, so they would walk over them too (again half the armies out there can easily counter)

 

Yes they are also semi immune to bolter fire as they are T6,they aren't impervious, and only have a 3+ save, so any ap2/3 (which is usually high strength as well) will kill them off.

 

And the only benefit they have is MC toughness, they don't have hammer of wraith or move through cover or ap2 in combat or cause fear ect.

 

Instant death is something you can't complain about as a grey knights player (because we have more ways of doing it)

 

And only wraith KNIGHTS move 12" and are T8,but also cost 300pts for its most optimal build. That can again, be punched in the crotch or stabbed in the toe by any grey knight unit and get insta gibbed.

 

And jet bikes indeed got better with the new object's games I have to admit. But are only slightly tougher than a standard marine, so as long as they're in range of a gun, they're no trouble.

 

 

I'm not trying to start an argument just so you know. But the points you brought up have essentially been shot down. I'm just trying to learn why it's such an "unbeatable" codex outside of abusive power gamer lists.

[Captain Coolpants]

I'm especially interested in everyone's opinions to what I'm saying, not just 'ultramarine blue'.

 

 

Because I had to deal with this bitching when I started playing grey knights (mehh op net list player mehhh) even though my lists were using 2 and even 3 dreadknights before the new dex.

 

And now I've literally just started and eldar army (assembled them yesterday) and already I'm getting it from my friends all over again. Eeeeven though, neither have ever ever played against eldar ever in their lives. And that I'm not, in any way, a power gamer or plan to be.

 

I just wish people made their own opinions on things. And not put everything in the same category.

 

Tis racist! Or codexist!

[Ultramarine Blue]

You are wrong on so many levels:

 

I roll 6s 1/6 of the time (just like everyone else). Yes, but are psycannons the basic infantry gun? No. I didn't think so so it is hardly comparable. It is more comparable to Necron’s gauss guns which are epic (just like bladestorm is).

 

Yes, they're shorter range than ours (but 18" isn't bad), but they can do a pseudo JSJ due to battle focus, so can get into range/get out of combat range ... So yeah.

 

That's 5 armies that you listed, now let me list the other armies:

DA (tac marines)

BA

SM

SW

IG

MT

Tau

Necrons

CSM

Sisters

 

So as you can see, the majority of armies actually have rapid fire guns rather than the assault weapons that you thought they had.

 

I mentioned them as I was mentioning everything wrong with them, so why wouldn't I mention them?

 

Yes, they have short range but that doesn't after when they have access to a fast transport...

 

The flamer ones do not fear assault as they will destroy anything and everything that charges them. Orks and 'Mid wouldn't ignore it! What are you talking about? They still only charge 2D6" so when you kill handfulls of guys they will fail their charge.

 

For Terminators to beat them they need to assault them but try that against ap2 flamers, there is no way that they will man that charge! Same as with us GKs; how can we make it to assault against ap2 flamers?

Everyone knows that DE do well against MCs... So that's one army.

 

I never said that wraithguard were immune to bolter fire and anyway, who takes bolters? They suck! Yes, try to plasma them when they're hiding in the Wave Serpents. Also, how does that help GKs? We don't have any plasma.

 

They are short range killers and they will kill in overwatch, so why do they need to kill in CC? All they need to do is tarpit them.

 

I know that I have loads of ID, and I'll hold my hands up that it is a little cheesy but we're talking about Eldar here who have bucket loads of cheese.

 

Yeah, I know only the WK moves 12" and it is T8 (I did say that it was immune to bolter fire and bolter wielders make up more than 50% of the armies), so what are you getting at? If you (as an Eldar player) let yourself get charged by GKs then you are an idiot.

 

How are they tougher than a marine? Both are T4...

 

You say that you don't want to start an argument... Yet you replied. If you didn't want to start one then you'd just accept your cheese and move on. You haven't 'shot down' any of my points yet I've shot down all of yours.

 

It's unbeatable as it is way too powerful and they have no real weakness (unlike every single codex except your own)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeahhh I'm getting fed up with people bitching about certain armies because they're "too good" or whatever.

 

Absolutely positively no CODEX is overly better than the other. 

 

Tournament and FLGS performance would suggest otherwise. Some codexes are objectively better. 

It's just certain UNITS in the codecies are just too good. 

 

I'm partially in agreement. Yes, a great deal of the issue lies with certain overpowered units. However, the internal balance of each codex is of equal concern. Tau have universally good to broken units, they have very few turds, and viable choices in every Force Org slot. Compare that with our codex, where our list of actual units is already thin, and GW's bipolar approach to nerfing means our terrible and medicore are now utterly worthless garbage, whilst our mainstays have become so auto-include our army is a joke. 

 

GW need to stop creating monstrosities like FMC's, Riptides, Wave Serpents etc. That is true. But they first need to get a grip and stop knee-jerk reactions to the meta every edition. Mech in 5th was broken not because of the vehicle rules, but because GW made their point cost too cheap to push sales. Hence the days of IG domination and Razorspam for Marines. Hull Points is an absurd overreaction and overnight made only vehicles with excellent AV/cover saves viable. Hence, Rhinos and Razorbacks collect dust, whilst Wave Serpents, Necron vehicles, even Tau armour is more survivable. IG only get by with Chimeras due to spam and AV12 frontage, once you flank them they're dust. 

People hate on eldar all the time because the Internet says they're too good....

 

NOOOOOO... people hate on them in real life when they spam the better units like serpents or invis star warlocks with like 12 warp charges in 1 squad spouting off powers like nobodies business. 

 

And those are ONLY 2 units... They are the sole reason eldar Do well in tournaments and the sole reason people complain, but as soon as you hear 'eldar player' you instantly think "this guys probably a douche, I don't wanna play him" 

 

Those that use those broken combos deserve all the hate they get. SeerStar is incredibly dumb, boring to play against and broken due to GW's insane lack of testing. Same for people who take 6+ Wave Serpents. But I agree people shouldn't moan about Eldar in general. They're still a finesse army, outside their powerbuild. 

And tau... They are indeed a very tough codex(especially for us), but they aren't that hard to deal with unless they have lots of suits and/or markerlights. And guard armies can deal with them promptly, as they arguably have just as much shooting power, but faaar more AV units. But nobody really complains about guard?.... Hmm.. Weird... They can even spam plasma better. 

 

People don't complain about IG because they no longer dominate the competitive scene, nor are they the army to beat. The armies to beat are Eldar, Necron and Tau. Maybe in time, IG will discover a power build that can rek those armies. Right now, it doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

IG have nothing that matches or even worries Riptides, Broadsides and Crisis. Not to mention Tau infantry obliterate Guardsmen (Fire Warriors disembarking within 12" of an Ethereal at 15" from you quickly wipes out T3 infantry, and even Marines melt under that much pressure). Tau easily outshoot IG currently, it's when IG bring melee Allies that Tau are in trouble (as they have to choose between taking out Guard firepower, or getting rid of their more dangerous melee Allies). I also think Bullgryns are a dark horse of the codex, but so far no one has made a proper Deathstar out of them. Probably because Centurions do the same job better (they don't die easily, plus their grav weapons mean melee isn't required). 

Rending on basic infantry guns

Assault basic infantry guns

 

No one cares about worse Rending, Guardians and Dire Avengers literally do not matter. They're never taken in enough numbers to be a threat, they're only taken to unlock either heavy weapon platforms or more Serpents. Plus, they're T3 and either in 5+ or 4+ armour. They melt to basic anti-infantry and they're dead meat in melee even with Guardsmen (who outnumber them). 

Battle focus

 

Eh, I don't mind it. It means their short-ranged units (the vast majority of Eldar) have an actual threat range. Dragons would be a lot worse without it. 

Literally EVERYTHING has access to Wave Serpents (even wraith guard/blades)

An entire unit with S4 AP2 flamers (and I thought the new FW Riptide's flamer was broken).

An entire unit with S10 AP2 guns!

Both of the above with insta-death on a 6 and the S10 gun for less than a terminator (not our ones though).

 

Not really. Serpents are mainly taken as dedicated Troop transports, with a couple as Dragon transports as well. Most Aspects don't need Serpents. 

 

Wraith units are balanced by their cost (they're extremely expensive, especially with the mandatory Spiritseer you need to attach to stop them derping out). Against a Wraith army your best bet is to kill any nearby Eldar psykers, especially Spiritseers. Its one of the rare cases where snipers, in particular a Vindicare, is handy. In our case, you need to sacrifice units to their firepower, then gut them in melee. Against the D-scythes, charge two units (they can only Overwatch against one). Against the normal wraithcannon dudes, charge one (they'll need really hot dice to even tag you once). 

 

Other Terminators are overpriced, we've been through this before. Ours will gut them in melee straight away, and nuke the Spiritseer without a problem. Getting into melee is difficult, I agree, but it can be done. They won't outnumber us, and once their gone the Eldar player usually doesn't have much else to fall back on. His army is just as elite as ours. 

2 units with both the benefits of walkers and MCs, yet with no drawbacks (immune to bolter fire, yet doesn't roll on the vehicle damage table AND moves 12").

 

Dreadknights will one-shot them in melee. Wraithknights aren't a problem, they're quite expensive and losing them hurts the Eldar player a lot. We've probably got the best odds, as DK's combine S10 with 'Force' and the speed to catch them in a reasonable amount of time. You'll need multiple DK's to do it, but that's why I advocate 2+ in every list, 4 if you can manage it. 

Jetbikes as troops with their hideous maneuvability!

 

Man, who do you play against? How are they beating you with Jetbikes? They're good, but they're not more than auxilary Troops to support what the rest of the army is doing, and for late-game objective grabbing. They melt under any kind of anti-infantry, and they won't be in large numbers outside of some themed list. 

[Ultramarine Blue]

I'm especially interested in everyone's opinions to what I'm saying, not just 'ultramarine blue'.

Because I had to deal with this bitching when I started playing grey knights (mehh op net list player mehhh) even though my lists were using 2 and even 3 dreadknights before the new dex.

And now I've literally just started and eldar army (assembled them yesterday) and already I'm getting it from my friends all over again. Eeeeven though, neither have ever ever played against eldar ever in their lives. And that I'm not, in any way, a power gamer or plan to be.

I just wish people made their own opinions on things. And not put everything in the same category.

Tis racist! Or codexist!

Well 2 or 3 Dreadknights is cheesy (hence why I use 1 or 0) so why are you surprised that you get 'hate'?

 

Well Eldar are well known to be broken as hell, so maybe they are just assuming that you will power game as the codex is extremely popular with powergamers.

 

Tell them that you're not going to be a dick then.

 

Finally, if you want other peoples opinions make your own thread!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well 2 or 3 Dreadknights is cheesy (hence why I use 1 or 0) so why are you surprised that you get 'hate'?

 

Because using 2 is practically mandatory nowadays. If you get hate for Dreadknight spam your opponents are stupid. It's not even that strong, plasma guns quickly demolish them. 

Finally, if you want other peoples opinions make your own thread! 

 

That's not how a public forum works dude. If you wan an echo chamber go make a blog. 

[Bionicman]

I'm especially interested in everyone's opinions to what I'm saying, not just 'ultramarine blue'.

 

 

Because I had to deal with this bitching when I started playing grey knights (mehh op net list player mehhh) even though my lists were using 2 and even 3 dreadknights before the new dex.

 

And now I've literally just started and eldar army (assembled them yesterday) and already I'm getting it from my friends all over again. Eeeeven though, neither have ever ever played against eldar ever in their lives. And that I'm not, in any way, a power gamer or plan to be.

 

I just wish people made their own opinions on things. And not put everything in the same category.

 

Tis racist! Or codexist!

 

Serpent Shield, all skimmer / fast jink vehicles, lots of RR high S low AP weaponary due to scatter laser, lots and lots of AP2 or rending or ID shooting even on basic troops or inexpensive units... Yeah sure you can take the less broken units but nobody does. Why should they? Do we take purgation squads? And this silly "argument" that eldar are squishy or bad in CC, it simply doesn't matter because they are so damn fast or well protected that they will never be in melee. They might struggle a bit against some other armies idk but certainly not against GK, although we have better odds with the new codex than the last I think. They are cheesy maybe not tau cheesy but definetly top tier cheesy.

 

"A mutant is very dangerous to you because he flies faster than you do and shoots at you"

[Ultramarine Blue]

 

Well 2 or 3 Dreadknights is cheesy (hence why I use 1 or 0) so why are you surprised that you get 'hate'?

 

Because using 2 is practically mandatory nowadays. If you get hate for Dreadknight spam your opponents are stupid. It's not even that strong, plasma guns quickly demolish them. 

Finally, if you want other peoples opinions make your own thread!

 

That's not how a public forum works dude. If you wan an echo chamber go make a blog.

You closed down other threads for getting off topic....

 

You could say that 2 Riptides or 2 Grab Centurions squads are necessary but it doesn't mean that they aren't cheesy.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

ou could say that 2 Riptides or 2 Grab Centurions squads are necessary but it doesn't mean that they aren't cheesy. 

 

Yeah but those units are genuinely broken. Dreadknights are not. My point being, we need 2+ Dreadknights to even stand a chance. Tau do rely on Riptides but they're not the only strong unit. Marines are the same, Grav Centurions are nasty but they're only one piece of it. Our core is Terminators and Dreadknights, that's it. Everything else either need Allies or a lot of work to become viable. 

[Brom MKIV]

'm especially interested in everyone's opinions to what I'm saying, not just 'ultramarine blue'. 

 

 

Because I had to deal with this bitching when I started playing grey knights (mehh op net list player mehhh) even though my lists were using 2 and even 3 dreadknights before the new dex. 

 

And now I've literally just started and eldar army (assembled them yesterday) and already I'm getting it from my friends all over again. Eeeeven though, neither have ever ever played against eldar ever in their lives. And that I'm not, in any way, a power gamer or plan to be.

 

 

Jbat- you'll just have to use the codex to see what others talk about. I have rarely fielded wave serpents. I don't have the need or the desire. But its not just the power build of 6 WS + stuff, eldar are definitely a step above the other codices. Once you pilot them you'll start feeling that. I wish all dexes were of similar flexibility and power because its an amazing book. 

 

I do find it funny that people here don't consider NDKs a little too good though. Its arguably the best MC in the game on par with tides and WKs IME, and I use 2 of the 3 and play against the third (triptides). GK in general (the 'gud' stuff anyway) IS kinda cheesy. But thats the point. Were like special forces. 

 

The difference is the alpha strike potential, which is lower for GK, and the number of such units we can throw down, which isn't much. Its also what makes tau and eldar etc a little ott.. the ability to bring extremely efficient 'auxiliary' units to flesh out a list which allows these armies to play the game on multiple fronts, something we can't do. 

 

Things like single suits, 3 man EJBs, 95 pt DS/warp jump/hit and run spiders etc, the latter two I use extensively along with hawks. EJBs do win games btw, not always directly but they do. Reserving 4 x 51 pt meq units with jink that can move 48" on arrival is insanely flexible. They can team up to erase something, contest/control objectives, nab the relic and jump back 6" turn 1 (invisible to boot) or just dominate maelstrom for 200 pts while you set about destroying their mobile units. They also make great road blocks for imperial knights if you don't feel like shooting them atm.. zip up spread out 1" away. One of my favorite tactics against knights.

 

Kill points hasn't been a thing for quite awhile so there really isn't a downside to saturating with fast cheap flexible targets. Ghetto rending is an unnecessary bonus but it works for a number of things not the least of which is forcing jinks or even dropping FMCs. And again were talking about 51 pts (I usually take the SC though at +10) that will threaten if not injure any non mech in the game and mech too if you add the SC. 

 

WS are good but hardly necessary in that army. I would put money that even if WS were removed the book would remain top tier. Its that good.