Are GKs actually the best at fighting Daemons?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I do find it funny that people here don't consider NDKs a little too good though. Its arguably the best MC in the game on par with tides and WKs IME, and I use 2 of the 3 and play against the third (triptides). GK in general (the 'gud' stuff anyway) IS kinda cheesy. But thats the point. Were like special forces. 

 

Whilst broken FMC's exist, Dreadknights aren't that powerful. They're not easy to hide from enemy fire, and they want to get into melee ASAP. That means they're gonna get shot a lot, and probably die. Plasma rips them to shreds, and its the favoured special weapon nowadays (as melta is less efficient at removing HP, which is how vehicles die nowadays). 

The difference is the alpha strike potential, which is lower for GK, and the number of such units we can throw down, which isn't much. Its also what makes tau and eldar etc a little ott.. the ability to bring extremely efficient 'auxiliary' units to flesh out a list which allows these armies to play the game on multiple fronts, something we can't do. 

 

Well we can through Allies. But you're correct that pure Knights is like playing a 1000pt list against a 3k list a lot of the time. You're badly ountnumbered, and if the game drags on you'll lose via attrition. 

Things like single suits, 3 man EJBs, 95 pt DS/warp jump/hit and run spiders etc, the latter two I use extensively along with hawks. EJBs do win games btw, not always directly but they do. Reserving 4 x 51 pt meq units with jink that can move 48" on arrival is insanely flexible. They can team up to erase something, contest/control objectives, nab the relic and jump back 6" turn 1 (invisible to boot) or just dominate maelstrom for 200 pts while you set about destroying their mobile units. They also make great road blocks for imperial knights if you don't feel like shooting them atm.. zip up spread out 1" away. One of my favorite tactics against knights.

 

I haven't lost games due to jetbikes, but I'm aware of their preferred strategy (last minute grab for objectives). They are pretty annoying, although they're usually not taken in large numbers. Tau are a little more powerful, in that they can take their power units, and still have points for 30-40 shooty infantry they can buff the hell out of. Ethereal+rapid fire range on Shas'la pulse rifles is serious firepower, I've lost Terminators to it (not to mention it carries over into Overwatch). 

Kill points hasn't been a thing for quite awhile so there really isn't a downside to saturating with fast cheap flexible targets. Ghetto rending is an unnecessary bonus but it works for a number of things not the least of which is forcing jinks or even dropping FMCs. And again were talking about 51 pts (I usually take the SC though at +10) that will threaten if not injure any non mech in the game and mech too if you add the SC. 

 

No, but I always say GK's have to play every mission like its 'Purge the Alien'. We don't have the staying power for a protracted fight, nor do we have enough dudes to camp more objectives. We have to alpha strike the enemy and cripple them, otherwise we're at serious risk of just being ground down over later turns. 

 

WS are good but hardly necessary in that army. I would put money that even if WS were removed the book would remain top tier. Its that good.

 

 

SeerStar would still exist, so I agree. But nerfing Wave Serpents would seriously impact their tournament performance. It's a crutch for a lot of their lists. Eldar Troops (barring jetbike MSU) is seriously lacking. No one cares about Avengers or Guardians, they're decidedly medicore. 

[Ishagu]

Avengers and Guardians are not mediocre, they just aren't as trolololo op as everything else in the Codex :-P

 

What I personally hate about Eldar is that you literally have to prepare your list to fight them before a game to avoid getting totally annihilated. A well rounded army will simply not be able to deal with a decent Eldar list...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Avengers and Guardians are not mediocre, they just aren't as trolololo op as everything else in the Codex :-P 

 

No they're objective medicore. They have to get too close for their firepower to be relevant, at which point people walk up to them and rapid-fire, or flamer/assault weapon+charge them. They hide inside Serpents mostly, or are taken as a backfield objective holder with heavy weapons. 

What I personally hate about Eldar is that you literally have to prepare your list to fight them before a game to avoid getting totally annihilated. A well rounded army will simply not be able to deal with a decent Eldar list... 

 

Ah, not always. If you can get into melee with Serpents, they die pretty fast to kraks or meltabombs (or our S6 swords plus S8/10 hammers). SeerStar can be shut down in the Psychic phase, without invul stacking and 'Invis' they're a lot easier to murder, and they lack 'Force' so Dreadknights can rip them to shreds. Not to mention gatling psilencer under 'Force' does a number on SeerStar. 

 

It's always a tough fight, but Eldar ignore fewer rules than Tau. Tau are by far our worst matchup. 

[Ultramarine Blue]

SM ignore the most rules... Just saying.

[Happy-inquisitor]

It's unbeatable as it is way too powerful and they have no real weakness (unlike every single codex except your own)

According to the stats on torrent of fire Eldar are running at around a 55% win ratio at the moment. Over that many games that looks a bit too strong to be down to pure player skill or.luck, on the other hand it is not looking unbeatable. For reference Tau, Daemons and Necrons are trailing a little behind Eldar but are all winning more than they lose.

 

On those stats the only standout codex is Imperial Knights who are winning about 2/3 of the time.

 

Oh and as a player of both GK and Tau I think you may debate forever before concluding which is the stronger MC between NDK and Riptides. If one is."broken" then both are.

[Ultramarine Blue]

Could you post a link so I can see the results please?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

SM ignore the most rules... Just saying.

 

Like what? You mean Morale? ATSKNF doesn't keep them from getting nuked by xenos lists. Marines are held up by a few strong units, in general they're pretty medicore and overpriced these days. 

According to the stats on torrent of fire Eldar are running at around a 55% win ratio at the moment. Over that many games that looks a bit too strong to be down to pure player skill or.luck, on the other hand it is not looking unbeatable. For reference Tau, Daemons and Necrons are trailing a little behind Eldar but are all winning more than they lose.

About what I expected. Eldar can outlast Tau depending on the list matchup, and they have a lot of armour for the Broadsides to chew through. Eldar can certainly be beaten, but only with a good list and probably a good general as well. 

On those stats the only standout codex is Imperial Knights who are winning about 2/3 of the time. 

 

That won't last. They're an anomaly in the game at the moment, GW inserting superheavy walkers as an army. Once people figure out how to dismantle or tie them up, Knight-Titans will be just another strong armour skew list. 

Oh and as a player of both GK and Tau I think you may debate forever before concluding which is the stronger MC between NDK and Riptides. If one is."broken" then both are. 

 

It's not a debate. Riptides are broken, Dreadknights are balanced. 

 

Movement:

- Riptide moves 6", and a further 2D6" in the Assault phase.

- Dreadknight moves 12", and has a once-per-game 30" Shunt move

 

Shooting: 

- Riptide has either infantry/MC killing (ion accelerator), or an anti-transport/Flyer/FMC weapon (heavy burst cannon). Also a choice of twin plasma or twin fusion as a secondary. Using nova charge, it can either fire its secondary twice, or gain a 3+ invul save, or move 3D6" in the Assault phase. Riptides commonly have EWO (Interceptor), and either Stims or Skyfire as their second support system. 

- Dreadknight has heavy psycannon, which can basically hurt anything in the game but relies a lot on Rending. Also gatling psilencer or heavy incinerator as secondary weapons. It can boost to a 4+ invul in the Psychic phase. 

 

Melee:

- Dreadknight wins, even without 'Force'. 

 

Against the same shooting, a Riptide will survive where a Dreadknight will not, as it has more wounds, a better invul save on demand (with a lower probability of failure, especially in either its broken formation or using the Farsight Earth Pilot upgrade), and Feel No Pain. It also typically operates at longer range, whereas a Dreadknight's need to close to melee forces it into rapid-fire range and melta range. 

 

Melee is the only are where you might argue a Dreadknight is too strong, but that's only if it makes into melee. Things like Princes and Hive Tyrants will still rip a Dreadknight to shreds in melee anyway, so it's not even the most dangerous MC in that area. It's good, and downright nightmarish for infantry, but it's not the strongest. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah I have to admit, dreadknights are pretty amazing, and borderline cheesy. But riptides just perform better. Within a codex that has nothing but units that support each other.

 

Riptides are a threat to pretty much anything on the board turn 1. And off the board due to interceptor. Plus has loads of cool rules and abilities and options.

 

A dreadknight had about as much shooting as a 6 man terminator squad (psycannon /psylencer combo).

 

Where as the riptide has to shooting capabilities of a tank.

 

Yeah, if our dreadknight gets in combat it'll absolutely squish the riptide.

 

But that riptide will get at least 2 turns of plasma fire against us first. And then the overwatch!

 

In my opinion, if the dreadknight could first turn assault, THEN they'd be just as deadly as each other. But as it stands. A riptide is far more survivable (range, wounds, invun and fnp) and is in effect earlier (range).

 

 

I'm just thankful my meta doesn't spam them, I have to deal with 2 extreeeeeemely rarely.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm just thankful my meta doesn't spam them, I have to deal with 2 extreeeeeemely rarely. 

 

I wish I played in your area. I have two players who field 2-3 on a regular basis, and another getting into the game who is currently assembling 5x Riptides. Urgh...the next codex cannot come soon enough. 

 

I think the biggest indication the Riptide is broken is that it mostly replaces Crisis in the same role. Dreadknights are our only real Heavy Support choice because the other option are either too expensive or incredibly bad. Crisis and Stealth suits are actually great, but the Riptide is so strong it dominates Elites. 

[Ultramarine Blue]

I think both of you are in denial. Our Dread knight is broken.

 

Overall, our guns beat the Riptide's as the order goes:

 

Ion Accelerator (obviously).

Heavy Psycannon.

Heavy Incinerator.

Heavy Psilincer.

Heavy Burst Cannon.

TL Plasma Rifle.

TL Fusion Blaster.

TL Smart Missile System.

 

As you can see; they have the best gun, but all of the others suck compared to ours, therefore we win.

 

Whilst they can get a 3++ (with a 1/3 chance of taking a wound), we can get a 4++ with the roll of a single 4+ (refilling 1s). Yeah, we could perills but it is unlikely.

 

We beat their movement about 50% of the time (on average, the Riptide will thrust about 7" (1" more than us).

 

We're psykers.

 

We're CC monsters!

 

We're easily spammed as we're cheap and there's no competition in our Heavy Support category; whilst the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits.

 

You can say that they will have FNP; but no Tau player that I have ever encountered pays for it. They could say the same about us always having a 4++ and force activated.

 

Whilst they can hide away at the back; we can easily get close and there is no way they canbeat us 1on1. They might do 1 or 2 wounds... But we'll have 2 or 3 left.

 

In conclusion, both are broken.

[Ultramarine Blue]

Yeah I have to admit, dreadknights are pretty amazing, and borderline cheesy. But riptides just perform better. Within a codex that has nothing but units that support each other.

Riptides are a threat to pretty much anything on the board turn 1. And off the board due to interceptor. Plus has loads of cool rules and abilities and options.

A dreadknight had about as much shooting as a 6 man terminator squad (psycannon /psylencer combo).

Where as the riptide has to shooting capabilities of a tank.

Yeah, if our dreadknight gets in combat it'll absolutely squish the riptide.

But that riptide will get at least 2 turns of plasma fire against us first. And then the overwatch!

In my opinion, if the dreadknight could first turn assault, THEN they'd be just as deadly as each other. But as it stands. A riptide is far more survivable (range, wounds, invun and fnp) and is in effect earlier (range).

I'm just thankful my meta doesn't spam them, I have to deal with 2 extreeeeeemely rarely.

Crisis Suits are spammed more than Riptides and why is it bad for them to use 2 or 3 when we all take at least 2? It seems like a double standard (hence why I only ever take 1 Dread knight as they're broken and cheesy).

 

The biggest indicator that the Dreadknight is broken is that it does absolutely everything better compared to the rest of our army. I always hear my fellow GK players saying "why take Interceptors/Terminators/etc. when I can take another Dreadknight?"

[Ultramarine Blue]

Yeah I have to admit, dreadknights are pretty amazing, and borderline cheesy. But riptides just perform better. Within a codex that has nothing but units that support each other.

Riptides are a threat to pretty much anything on the board turn 1. And off the board due to interceptor. Plus has loads of cool rules and abilities and options.

A dreadknight had about as much shooting as a 6 man terminator squad (psycannon /psylencer combo).

Where as the riptide has to shooting capabilities of a tank.

Yeah, if our dreadknight gets in combat it'll absolutely squish the riptide.

But that riptide will get at least 2 turns of plasma fire against us first. And then the overwatch!

In my opinion, if the dreadknight could first turn assault, THEN they'd be just as deadly as each other. But as it stands. A riptide is far more survivable (range, wounds, invun and fnp) and is in effect earlier (range).

I'm just thankful my meta doesn't spam them, I have to deal with 2 extreeeeeemely rarely.

So you think it isn't okay to use 2+ Riptides but it is okay for you to use your 2-3 Dreadknights (even before their buff (from previous page))?

 

Seems a bit unfair since the Riptide is their equivalent of our Dreadknight...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think both of you are in denial. Our Dread knight is broken.

 

Nope. We're simply pointing out Dreadknights are balanced by their melee focus, and their lack of durability compared to a Riptide or FMC. 

As you can see; they have the best gun, but all of the others suck compared to ours, therefore we win.

 

Wat

Whilst they can get a 3++ (with a 1/3 chance of taking a wound), we can get a 4++ with the roll of a single 4+ (refilling 1s). Yeah, we could perills but it is unlikely.

 

Our 4+ invul can only be turned on in the Psychic phase, and it almost always requires at least 2 charge dice, if not 3. If you're consistently casting 'Sanctuary' off one dice, your dice are loaded. It's not Perils I'm worried about (you shouldn't be devoting more than 2-3 dice to a 'Sanctuary' attempt), its failing the test, which is entirely possible. 

We beat their movement about 50% of the time (on average, the Riptide will thrust about 7" (1" more than us).

 

Meaningless statement. We have faster base movement, and a Shunt move, but Riptides can be just as mobile with their assault move. Moreover, they don't need to be moving round much, their main weapons cover most of the board. 

We're psykers.

 

So?

We're CC monsters!

 

Which only matters if you actually get into melee. 40k currently punishes melee units heavily and favours shooting units. 

We're easily spammed as we're cheap and there's no competition in our Heavy Support category; whilst the Riptide competes with Crisis Suits.

 

Dreadknights clock in at about the same price as Riptides normally. It's no competition for Tau either, Crisis are usually seen in Farsight lists or as a single suicide melta drop. 

You can say that they will have FNP; but no Tau player that I have ever encountered pays for it. They could say the same about us always having a 4++ and force activated.

 

I have the exact opposite experience. Stims is considered mandatory by my local Tau players, and I'll think you find its a commonly held opinion amoungst Tau players. 2+ armour with 3+/5+ invul and a 5+ FNP is a formidable task to crack. The difference is, Stims is always on, and it even helps with nova charge fails. We have to pass a Psychic test and use up precious warp charges to turn on 'Sanctuary', and its still a worse invul save on a model with less wounds (that 5th wound is a big deal). 

Whilst they can hide away at the back; we can easily get close and there is no way they canbeat us 1on1. They might do 1 or 2 wounds... But we'll have 2 or 3 left.

 

Riptides with plasma or fusion as their secondary can demolish a Dreadknight pretty easily. My opponents normally take ion on most of theirs, with 1-2 packing HBC for Flyer Interception. An IonTide will demolish a Dreadknight, even with 'Sanctuary' up your odds aren't great. 

In conclusion, both are broken.

 

In conclusion, you need to actually play against some competitive Tau lists. Tell me Dreadknights are broken when you lose two on the approach, and maybe get one into melee successfully on Turn 3. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah our cc means absolutely positively nothing if we cannot get into combat. Due to being shot to death first..

 

And your gun orders is waaaay off.. I'm pretty sure the riptides high strength and guaranteed low ap guns all far exceed anything the knight can take.

 

I'm pretty damn sure any player would rather have a gun with high Strength and low ap, ignoring all armour saves, and almost guaranteed wounds each turn, instead of a psylencer with a tiny chance to wound, let alone pass a psyker test, hit with enough shots, AND to wound AND THEN for the opponent to fail a 2+ save...

 

And a psycannon is actually pretty good... at Hull points or killing chaff...., but only ap4, with a tiny chance to get a rend every now and again.

 

The only weapons that actually really matter on a knight and can be directly compared to a riptides weapons, are it's CC weapons.

Which as everyone says who's faced tau... Are useless, because it's sooooo hard to get into combat range without dying first, or overwatched to death by supporting Fire.

 

I HATE riptides... But have no real problem with riptides being used.

 

It's just wrong when people say dreadknights are just as hard to deal with as riptides are.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Supporting Fire deserves special mention, as its their primary means of preventing melee EVER happening. Eating upwards of 90+ pulse rounds to the face, plus whatever AP2 the Riptides and Crisis tag onto you...it gets ugly fast. 

[Ultramarine Blue]

You only need to use 1 dice for Sanctuary as it is a 4+, with a 1/6 chance of having another go at the 4+.

 

I was saying that we beat the Riptide at everything other than shooting (eventhough our guns beat all of the other guns the Riptide has other than the IA).

 

So you think that an IA with 3 shots and a plasma rifle with 1/2 shots will kill the 4w Dreadknight? You must either roll for s*** or your opponents are too lucky.

The Riptide will hit with 1/2 IA shots and 0/1 plasmashots, which will do about 2 wounds; where 1 will be saved from the 4++.... How are you dying? My Dreadknight has never died to a Riptide.

 

Seriously, are you two trolling? How can we NOT get into combat? We alpha strike our ENTIRE army and we have a 30" shunt move... All you have to do is survive 1 round before you can assault.

If you cannot survive that 1 round where the Tau player has to decide whether to shoot Terminators or Dreadknights and will then do by the other... How do you not destroy them all of the time?

 

Jbat... You'd rather take a single plasma gun over any of your guns?... That's idiotic. Plain and simple.

 

You think that 5 S10 attacks is Tau good? Tau can have 1... A railgun; its more on the line of Tyranids with their Zoanthropes.

 

As I've said before, getting to combat isn't that hard.

 

Well both have S6, T6, 2+ 5++, the Riptide has +1 W, whilst the Dreadknight has +2 WS, +1 BS, +2I, and +1A.. They are essentially the same.

 

I really don't understand why you two cannot see it.

 

Tau have supportive fire because they suck as CC, just like Orks have Waaagh because they (partially) suck at shooting.

[Captain Coolpants]

Well I'm sorry to say ultramarine blue. You're literally on your own. You're the only one who thinks the way you do. Which is fair enough.

 

We've all said our opinions. And you by yourself have said yours. So I guess we can just leave it at that.

 

Pointless arguing over this really, Tis only a game :-P

 

I've learned to just let arguments slip nowadays, (due to a certain player in my meta being a little bitch at everything when he doesn't win)

 

So we should just all be friends and move along lol.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Oh and as a player of both GK and Tau I think you may debate forever before concluding which is the stronger MC between NDK and Riptides. If one is."broken" then both are. 

 

It's not a debate. Riptides are broken, Dreadknights are balanced. 

 

 

 

Well that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I think I now have a better idea why some people struggle against Tau, if you focus on their strengths and are ignorant of the balancing weaknesses you just won't know how to play well against them.

 

I have to admit the thread has helped me understand why when my son took his little Tau force to the FLGS not long ago two out of three of his older and more experienced opponents just made basic tactical blunders and then muttered about OP Tau. The internet reputation of even one Riptide is so ferocious it seems to cloud people's judgement, but I've been playing all sorts of table-top games for a long time and basic blunders are basic blunders and have nothing to do with OP.  His friend who is used to it seems to handle it just fine with his GK - he plays against the actual model and not its reputation.

[Brom MKIV]

Comparing our knight to a riptide is not a good yardstick especially in the context of that match up. Just because tau are gk personal boogyman doesn't mean they're everyone else's. Plenty of armies struggle to deal with our knights just as much as tides. They are both head and shoulders above the majority of similarly costed units.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Blue, I'm with Jbat and Darius, our DKs don't match 1v1 to the tide. You have to think, the tide will get at least o two rounds of shooting, 3 if it can put distance on its move. And seriously, you are new to this forum and already you are accusing two forum vets of trolling?

[Ultramarine Blue]

Why doesn't it? The Riptide needs market light support to shine whilst the Dreadknight is rather independent. Usually 1v1s are on a tiny board (see MiniWargaming's Who Would Win videos) so it would only be 1 or possibly 2 rounds, but the Dreadknight wouldalso be able to shoot.

The shunt move will get rid of any 'distance' issue.

 

8 months makes you a vet? No offense but if that's the case then people must get bored of this forum quickly.

 

Anyway, what does my newness have to do with anything? You were new once and did people say to you "your views are invalid as this guy has had an account for 8 more months than you"... It's kinda stupid if the length of membership is more important than the innovation and creativity of the person.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Blue, I'm with Jbat and Darius, our DKs don't match 1v1 to the tide. You have to think, the tide will get at least o two rounds of shooting, 3 if it can put distance on its move. And seriously, you are new to this forum and already you are accusing two forum vets of trolling?

 

Nobody else relies on 2+ saves like GK, not surprisingly nobody else finds the IA  and plasma quite such a problem. Lurching back onto topic for a moment there is almost nothing in the Daemon codex that particularly cares about the AP2 on the IA or plasma.

 

Tau are tough opposition, the stats show that they win noticeably over 50% of their competitive match-ups. Some common Tau lists are particularly hard on armies which rely on 2+ armour saves - which no army does more than GK. Nobody says that GK will have an easy time against Tau but that is not even always true of other Marine armies much less very different lists such as Daemons - just of the one highly specialized marine army that in the fluff really should be too busy hunting Daemons to be playing with Xenos.

 

If someone wants to do the leg-work over at torrentoffire.com and has a paid account we could probably work out which other armies are really doing better than GK against Daemons. I actually doubt that Tau are one of them - that looks like one of the worse match-ups for Tau to me.

[Ultramarine Blue]

Yeah we do have it rough against Tau; just like Tyranids have it rough against us (there's hardly anything they can do against us, we will almost always win)

IG are also tough opposition due to their plasma vets and Leman Russes.

[calvin the wraithlord]

 

 

I think there a tough one but i defiantly wouldn't say there our WORST match up by far though, Eldar i think hurt us alot more, and tbh i actually fear flyer heavy necrons more than tau, ive beaten my fair share of tau players simply by rolling well, id say ive won maybe 50%ish of my games against them which yes isent great but like you said they are a damn tough one for us whereas against serpent spam or wraithspam i tend to just laugh and accept defeat. Sub-par eldar players will still faceroll us, sub-par tau, defiantly, defiantly do not.

 

Now when you wraith spam... I don't see how we can't stomp these?

 

Yeah wraithknights WILL get a good few shots in, and wraithguard/blades are all tough and shoot powerfully... But in combat, we will annihilate them 90% of the time, we will allllllways be in combat range because they only have 12" maximum shooting. And hammerhand with ap3 just makes them as easy as normal Marines to kill.

 

And dreadknights are usually in range of everything due to shunting.

Plus 2 dreadknights with hammers and teleporters are almost the same costs as 1 optimally loaded wraithknight.

 

sorry its taken me so long to get back to you

 

I would love to see you charging into those Ap2 insta kill flamers, would be good to watch man

[thade]

Directed attacks are under the rules, folks. Put the gloves back on and be respectful in your disagreements.