Ultramarine Blue Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Should GKs get a fluff update to become more grimmdark? I know GKs are already pretty grimmdark with the amount of people that need to be slaughtered to make their ammo and stuff, but what with them being the elite of the elite of the elite; they should be even darker. IMO, there should be a risk of corruption and one of the named characters (either Draigo or Crowd) should become corrupted. This would make the Ordo Malleus think twice about making more GKs as, whilst super-epic, they could become even more super-epic with the help of Chaos. This is a similar discussion to what was happening with the black library thread (which unfortunately got locked) and it was some good discussion. Whilst it could be a massive change in the fluff, isn't change good? It was compared to 'Chaos Tau' in the other thread so here's some food for thought: Tau have become darker and more evil with every codex whilst most other armies' fluff remains generally constant. Also, in the book Fire Warrior, the main character fell to Chaos... So still Chaos Tau! What are your thoughts? Good idea or bad idea? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay170788 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Can't imagine a grey knight after undergoing all those trials to then go back on everything he believes in and turn to chaos. Why does everyone have to fall to chaos to make the fluff interesting? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultramarine Blue Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Primarchs turned and they were the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay170788 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 The fact they are elite is irrelevant I did mention that.. Also Primarchs didn't chose to become the living gods they were. A grey knight chooses his path which is vital to the argument. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultramarine Blue Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 A GK hardly chooses his path... If he wasn't a psyker could he still be a GK? No. No he couldn't. If he wasn't able to survive the test things could he be a GK? No. He’d be dead. If a Primarch can be corrupted (which was a 12th of the Emperor essentiall) why can't a super OP marine be corrupted? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warboss dakka slugga Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I think its a pretty good idea, all being psykers shouldn't they be more subject to temptation with their minds in the warp? I also agree it would make for good narrative! Humanitys finest turns on them again? Would show the imperium right! With the turning of a gk character, i can see chaos players looking forward to a possible data card release or something, who could say no an actual good character that could bring something to the codex? I know I'd enjoy seeing my orks go against a new chaos threat! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamon Wolf Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 No Grey knight will ever fall to chaos , but one has been corrupted by foul xneos , who is to say another won't go mad with torture he won't fall but he won't be a knight of Titan any more One knight has left the grey Knights and has become an agent of the inquisition due to torture at the hands of a Chaos Lord So their are ways to make the GK fluff more fluffy as it were I personally think that the GK fluff is ok we just need more stories from BL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I completely disagree with you blue. On the main point you have saying chaos gk will make the ordo malleus think twice about making more of us. Hey thanks buddy, while GW is finding a way to kick us out even more, that would be the final stake to make us go matyr extremis. Another reason to disagree is not onl did pyskers choose tgat way, the power of a name holds so much, thus they are mind whiped to help counter the easiest way of corruption. Not all your primarchs got corrupted and not all were pyskers. Magnus never fell, his sons did and he was forced into it with no choice. Alpharus never fell, he wanted to end chaos thus did what the cabal directed. Pertrabo never fell, but he was disgruntled. Horus was tricked, baited, and thus turned which was still lame how he went. Only 4 truly went chaos and thats because one had daddy issues so went to find a new daddy and forced another disgruntled brother into becoming a daemon against his and his legions will. One more fact to cobsider. Primarchs got made, scattered and raised by other people. How they got raised decided their fate. Gks were not vat grown, recieved thwir geneseed from the emprah himself, not a built from scratch one, and trained grown and raised by their brothers; not people enslaving them, forcing them to war then trying to beat their face. Training as well to focus on will power and fight temptation, things primarchs were substantially more vulnerable too Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Meh, being uncorruptable is the Grey Knight thing. It's a pretty big cornerstone of the faction, and it's important to the themes they're going for. But asking if they should be more 'dark' is missing the point. The point is supposed to be that they still do horribly bad things to all kinds of people. The 'knights helped to kill billons of people after Armageddon, for example. Not even innocents but heroes, people who gave their all to save the Imperium. Being corrupted or fallible is an excuse, and if knights could use it as one it'd weaken their character. Evil super dark corruption of good people is a theme you can explore with any number of factions or characters. Hell, it'd be better going with a Salamander or Imperial Fist character because they can be legitimately good people. There are no 'good' Grey Knights. Each and every one is a heartless, remorseless killing machine, willing to sacrifice other's lives for any incidental, marginal benefit. (Gaze into the abyss, etc.) Grey Knights should be about being absolutely, untouchably, perfectly immune to corruption and chaos - and the horrific costs that must be paid for such protection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultramarine Blue Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Since GKs get mindwiped... How do you get named characters with personalities? If everyone loses their personality, what makes guys like Stern different to guys like Joe and Patrick? Do they just make up a cool name and decide on their new persona on day 1? Dear Diary, I have decided that I will be called Tyrannosaurus Cool Guy and I will be the funny guy in my brotherhood, but still very tough and a good fighter.... That was an extract of Tyrannosaurus' diary. Is that correct to the current fluff? Chaos makes everything cooler 'cuz who doesn't like playing the bad guy? How is GW kicking GKs out? Last time I checked GKs recently received an update (unlike Sisters). GW would never 'kick out' something that they had recently updated; where's the money in that? Yes, so the easiest way of corruption is gone but other ways are still present... So they could still get corrupted. I never said that all Primarchs got corrupted, what I did say was that they can so why can't a lowly Astartes? There's no evidence to suggest that GKs got the Emperor's geneseed as what would have been the point in using Primarch's geneseeds before then? That's just something Matt Ward-ish to make GKs Space Marines +1. A Primarch is part-Emperor; a GK Astartes... Is not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultramarine Blue Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 I'm just saying that it would be cooler if the Inquisition put all their effort into making Gks untouchable that they start to believe it, even though its untrue and then that leads to a GK Daemon Prince or something destroying most of the Ordo Maleus! The IoM cannot be safe forever; Chaos is coming! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 A Primarch is part-Emperor; a GK Astartes... Is not. Is too. "...The Grey Knights’ strength of spirit and purity of body were the two most important gifts the Emperor passed on to the Chapter through his genetic legacy..." "... It is that unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the Warp, shape it to his will, and yet remain beyond its madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights. Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity, their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given to varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 You don't seem to understand how the GKs work. They are mind wiped as part of recruitment, before the implantation of the gene-seed etc, they are given new names in accordance with the auguries of the Prognosticators (I believe) as part of the process.They don't just pick new names themselves. Then their personalities form again naturally, influenced by their environment just like everyone else. There's no evidence to suggest that GKs got the Emperor's geneseed as what would have been the point in using Primarch's geneseeds before then? That's just something Matt Ward-ish to make GKs Space Marines +1.A Primarch is part-Emperor; a GK Astartes... Is not. Grey Knights are Space Marines +1. That is the point of them. They are the Emperor's final creation, the perfection of his Astartes process. As for why the Primarchs were used to create the Legions? How about numbers. Many thousands of Astartes were needed for the crusade, whereas with the Grey Knights quality is what matters. Each Knight has to be beyond the best, due to the nature of the threat they're intended to face. That is why different methods were used for the Knights and Legions, different intended function. The IoM cannot be safe forever; Chaos is coming! Just plain no. The Imperium gets screwed over enough in the modern fluff, this would just be piling it on to little gain. We get enough 'Humanity is screwed' as it is thanks. What you seem to be missing is that good fluff does not off fans of a specific faction. You are proposing undermining the principal characterisation of the Grey Knights faction. All that would do is anger the established fans, and attract very few new ones. There's already plenty of Inquisitors, Generals and Marine commander for all your 'fallen hero' needs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Humanity Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 How is GW kicking GKs out? Last time I checked GKs recently received an update (unlike Sisters). GW would never 'kick out' something that they had recently updated; where's the money in that? R u freaking kidding me! GKs got so nerfed to the ground, not even the Emperor could do something about it. Games Workshop practically took a dump on Kaldor Draigo and his squad of Paladins. There are no new models in the new GK codex, most miniatures of the codex are now useless. It seems to me you don't know much about GKs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 How is GW kicking GKs out? Last time I checked GKs recently received an update (unlike Sisters). GW would never 'kick out' something that they had recently updated; where's the money in that? R u freaking kidding me! GKs got so nerfed to the ground, not even the Emperor could do something about it. Games Workshop practically took a dump on Kaldor Draigo and his squad of Paladins. There are no new models in the new GK codex, most miniatures of the codex are now useless. It seems to me you don't know much about GKs. Wow. Good job being wrong at everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deet Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Didn't the new Black Library book have a fallen GK? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Didn't the new Black Library book have a fallen GK? Spoiler showed it was nids not chaos, so no fallen gk yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3906874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Going a bit off topic because, frankly, the topic kinda sucks. Would a Grey Knight willingly turn to chaos? It sounds crazy but hear me out. The squad is surrounded by xenos, or chaos marines or even daemons of Tzeench. 9 of them have died and lay still beside the jusitcar who is barely able to stand. Eventually he just says ":cuss it" and opens his mind to the immaterium and invites a greater daemon in. He doesnt fall to chaos, he doesnt become corrupted. He just weighs his options and finds he could die in vein, or he could allow a greater daemon of Khorn to use his mind and body, although his spirit has long since passed and is besides the Emperor. Would a Grey Knight use the power of the warp in such a way to combat his enemies, or are some methods of manipulation far from reach of our guys in grey. He would be killing himself to give one God the opportunity to strike at another, which just happens to benefit the Imperium. I believe a librarian from any other chapter would be willing, but with a GK I'm sitting on the fence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3907457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Uh.... What? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3907516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm pretty sure no GK would do that. I'ts unclear (let's face it, WH40k is not a documentary!) if the soul is gone when one is possessed, or is it corrupted. A GK would not want even his physical vessel, which contain the genes of the Emperor (possibly!?), to be corrupted... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3907521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerw Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The biggest "problem" with your "Primarchs fell, so why not GK?" is that the primarchs were raised, for the most part, well away from the empire, and they didn't train for years in a regimented program designed to "chaos-proof" them. It's sort of like saying, "Well, this dude who went to church every week who was related tot the pope quit going to church, so why couldn't the priests who have been training, studying, etc for 25 years quit?"Well, yea, they could, but it's not going to be for the same reasons - the weekly relative maybe just wanted to stay home and watch football, and never felt a spiritual connection, while maybe the priests just burned out. Your conclusion (GK's could fall) isn't wrong, just the route you took to get there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3907544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Going a bit off topic because, frankly, the topic kinda sucks. Would a Grey Knight willingly turn to chaos? It sounds crazy but hear me out. The squad is surrounded by xenos, or chaos marines or even daemons of Tzeench. 9 of them have died and lay still beside the jusitcar who is barely able to stand. Eventually he just says ":cuss it" and opens his mind to the immaterium and invites a greater daemon in. He doesnt fall to chaos, he doesnt become corrupted. He just weighs his options and finds he could die in vein, or he could allow a greater daemon of Khorn to use his mind and body, although his spirit has long since passed and is besides the Emperor. Would a Grey Knight use the power of the warp in such a way to combat his enemies, or are some methods of manipulation far from reach of our guys in grey. He would be killing himself to give one God the opportunity to strike at another, which just happens to benefit the Imperium. I believe a librarian from any other chapter would be willing, but with a GK I'm sitting on the fence. http://superherosguide.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/rorsh-compromise.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3907585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Should GKs get a fluff update to become more grimmdark? I know GKs are already pretty grimmdark with the amount of people that need to be slaughtered to make their ammo and stuff, but what with them being the elite of the elite of the elite; they should be even darker. IMO, there should be a risk of corruption and one of the named characters (either Draigo or Crowd) should become corrupted. This would make the Ordo Malleus think twice about making more GKs as, whilst super-epic, they could become even more super-epic with the help of Chaos. This is a similar discussion to what was happening with the black library thread (which unfortunately got locked) and it was some good discussion. Whilst it could be a massive change in the fluff, isn't change good? It was compared to 'Chaos Tau' in the other thread so here's some food for thought: Tau have become darker and more evil with every codex whilst most other armies' fluff remains generally constant. Also, in the book Fire Warrior, the main character fell to Chaos... So still Chaos Tau! What are your thoughts? Good idea or bad idea? No, because fallen Grey Knights are impossible according to the canon. GW recently teased the idea but they're not crossing that line. If they did, they'd basically invalidate the whole point of Grey Knights. I'm sorry but I'll need to lock this thread as well guys. These discussions do not lead anywhere productive. GW have been very consistent and clear on this issue. Please refrain from bringing up this topic again in future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301306-grey-knight-fluff-update/#findComment-3907785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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