Karhedron Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The extra bodies issue is one worth considering. Often opponents will not both targeting Devs with their long ranged firepower if they know they have to kill 6 meatshields before they start to take a toll on the big guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sans Mercy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 4 lascannons for me also. Used to stick 'em in a bastion when I ran a list with small IG allied contingent. Otherwise the devs are pure bullet magnets and will either have to go to ground or die pretty quickly. Yea I hate running devs, but love the models. Sometimes remaining points causes me to take them. I just hate seeing them flop like footballers when they take fire. "ref did you see that!?" Man, your avatars You make those yourself? Oh, no I certainly wish! Its just that Tyson is one of my idols, a man who once had it all, also a man whole admits his faults and grows from them. And in his heyday, sweet Jesus, was an unstoppable close combat killing machine. I'm not even a huge boxing fan, but I love the highlights, and that's mostly what Mr. Tyson left us with. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Aye Tyson will always be remembered with awe, as someone that little different for just being more...furious, more of a killer. He's earned his place in the company of death, but just won't die :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I used to go ML because it's what I had, but I was and always have been an advocate of plasma cannons, nothing makes for a better model in my opinion! Plus... When you get those four templates that don't scatter... Hoo boy, nothing is going to survive that! ...Not even the gunners Another view to take: Make them serve a purpose as a bullet magnet/ distraction by attaching a Sanguinary Priest and buying a fortification for them, watch as your enemy unloads his army into un-killable marines trying to get to your juicy heavy weapons... While your jumpy guys move unnoticed ...probably a bit of a point sink and misuse of resources but no one can ignore four big guns for too long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 That is a good suggestion. If you are going to take the Devastators, make sure they live as long as possible. Either they will suck in a silly amount of fire as your opponent tries to silence them or they can just continue plinking away all game. The thing to watch out for of course is an opponent Deep Striking something of his own nearby to put the hurt on them. This ties back to my earlier comment about the Devs potentially getting left behind by the rest of your army as they advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sans Mercy Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 What are your thoughts on throwing them in a rhino for survivability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgisnacht Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 A five strong squad with two plasma cannons firing from the hatch isn't bad if there are other targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 That is a good suggestion. If you are going to take the Devastators, make sure they live as long as possible. Either they will suck in a silly amount of fire as your opponent tries to silence them or they can just continue plinking away all game. The thing to watch out for of course is an opponent Deep Striking something of his own nearby to put the hurt on them. This ties back to my earlier comment about the Devs potentially getting left behind by the rest of your army as they advance. I'd say, go the full hog if you are worried; give the priest and sergeant some melee weapons and charge whatever is foolish enough to land next to the sons of Sanguinius! Plus the amount of times I've had a lascannon armed marine win combats by seemingly turning around and unwittingly knocking out a crisis suit leads me to believe this will work with 100% effectiveness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastellanDeMolay Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 A five strong squad with two plasma cannons firing from the hatch isn't bad if there are other targets. Beat me to it. The top hatch is two firing points, so you can get a pair of heavy weapons firing out of the Rhino, and should you be forced to disembark, you still have a pair of meat-shields. However, I see one problem with this, which is that a predator does largely the same damage depending upon load-out, has greater front armour, and is usually cheaper than the Devastators after upgrades. The Devastators can potentially disembark after the Rhino is destroyed, and continue firing. Whether that's better than the extra front armour, and worth losing the turret, is down to whether your Devastators will be able to find targets, or whether they're killed by anti-infantry weapons or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Yeah, generaly I think that setup is just too points-inefficient for what it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 2 PCs in a rhino with 3 bolter dudes, second combat squad manning a quadgun or similar. LCs on the foot squad. Feels like an OK setup in larger games (2k+) ? At that level you spend relatively few pts on backfield scoring + some mobile support while the rest of your force should be in the opponents face making his life difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Why spend 135 pts on 2 S7 Ap2 small blasts that can overheat in an AV 11 hull when you can have a single S10 Ap2 large ordnance blast on an Av13 hull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Because the AV11 hull attracts far less attention, doesn't have to be used as aggressively and the models inside will likely survive even after the rhino is destroyed. Also far less vulnerable to stunned/shaken results. A vindicator will get one round of shooting at best before it's effectively an AV11-10 vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 It attracts far less attention because its less of a threat. That's not actually a good thing. Idealy, every unit in your army is a headache for your opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 It attracts far less attention because its less of a threat. That's not actually a good thing. Only true if you play straight kill pts or end game scoring only. The dev + rhino combo is arguably more survivable than let's say a baal pred or vindicator, yet more likely to actually earn VPs over the course of a game. Considering how easy it is to shut down a vehicle mounted blast weapon these days I wouldn't be surprised if you rack up more kills with those devs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Only true if you play straight kill pts or end game scoring only. I don't play Maelstrom missions, so maybe it IS different there, but honestly, I don't care. The whole thing has just so many flaws that it just doesn't seem like a lot of fun. And tournaments generaly stick to "standard" missions anyways. The dev + rhino combo is arguably more survivable than let's say a baal pred or vindicator, yet more likely to actually earn VPs over the course of a game. How is it more survivable, exactly? Its an AV11 platform with 5 MEQ inside. Given that most AT weapons these days are S6-7, I just don't see that as more survivable in any normal sense. Considering how easy it is to shut down a vehicle mounted blast weapon these days I wouldn't be surprised if you rack up more kills with those devs too. Goes back to my point about AT weapons. AV11 will likely suffer a lot of pens, AV13 will not suffer any. Comments in red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I haven't seen a tournament in ages that use the old style missions exclusively, people are really tired of them, and I never play those in my club. So local meta variations I guess. It's more survivable because of the added distance and the fact that it's two separate units. I don't expect either of those to stand up to any serious attention. But if it takes one turn to glance the AV13 vehicle to death then it will likely take at least two turns (or several units shooting at the same thing) to kill off one rhino plus squad. AV13 doesn't matter much because it's front only on a short ranged tank. The sides and rear are very easy to expose, frankly it's impossible to guard the sides against a mobile enemy unless you box the vindi completely with land raiders or luck out with perfect terrain placement allowing LoS deinal on both flanks. Having to get that close also means that you are more likely to be in range of assaults, melta or other nasty stuff. Less likely to have cover as well. Overall 36" is much safer than 24". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In the states alot of major tournaments use the BAO missions or some form of them and in europe ETC is pretty popular from what I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 ETC is a very let's say, special, tournament.... It's not very interesting unless you are a true WAAC player, and then why go with anything that's not the 6th ed power books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 You now have intrigued knife and fork :) Personally from my experience of running them with my black templars I don't like vindicators they never seem to do enough damage for me. Also they scatter like crazy for me my own vindicator has: killed a 15 man crusader squad disembarked, destroyed itself, exploded my own land raider crusader, immobilized the crusader twice, and weapons destroyed my predator. He now has the name team killer. I personally don't like running Devastators because they feel too static for me. Also it's not very hard to wipe a 5 man squad off the board now a days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgisnacht Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 True. The OP asked what Dev squad load out is best. A quandary most definitely. Devs are situational efficiency units. •Heavy Bolters x 4 + Sarge with storm bolter= great vs infantry horde/ not so great vs vehicles •Multi-meltas x 4 = static vehicle destroyer of doom/ meh towards hordes •Lascannons x 4 = as above only with longer range •Plasma cannons x 4 = small stack of templates that scatter •Missle launchers x 4 = small stack of weaker templates that scatter or hull points if you're lucky or expensive sky fire Mixed weapons is a mixed bag. I just like the idea of hauling a tank mounted weapon on your shoulder because you can. It makes the game fun. And that is half the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 True. The OP asked what Dev squad load out is best. A quandary most definitely. Devs are situational efficiency units. •Heavy Bolters x 4 + Sarge with storm bolter= great vs infantry horde/ not so great vs vehicles •Multi-meltas x 4 = static vehicle destroyer of doom/ meh towards hordes •Lascannons x 4 = as above only with longer range •Plasma cannons x 4 = small stack of templates that scatter •Missle launchers x 4 = small stack of weaker templates that scatter or hull points if you're lucky or expensive sky fire Mixed weapons is a mixed bag. I just like the idea of hauling a tank mounted weapon on your shoulder because you can. It makes the game fun. And that is half the battle. Nice summary walpurgisnact! I'd like to give a full ten man squad with heavy bolters a try one day, if the enemy advances on you with the addition of the normal guys bolters at 24" you have some serious firepower - especially if you add in the cheeky storm bolter too. Might even be enough to math-hammer some MEQ, as you should statistically be killing about 2-4 a turn, with much more potential if they are anything squishier And you get to say DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA while rolling the dice, as we all know this adds more hits and wounds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I ran 4 missile launchers in every edition since 3rd, and they have generally done well, until 6th. Vehicles are too tough now. The rule of cool through! That, and massed Autocannons, are two of my favourites. That said, I think 7th has perhaps changed this too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I ran 4 missile launchers in every edition since 3rd, and they have generally done well, until 6th. Vehicles are too tough now. The rule of cool through! That, and massed Autocannons, are two of my favourites. That said, I think 7th has perhaps changed this too much. How about as an interesting alternative to four ML... Tactical Terminators with Cyclones (or AC if you so desire) this way you have some dudes who can move and fire each turn, so can keep up with your force and are a lot more survivable too. Will make a mess of anything they eventually reach too. Could make a very nice "second wave" so to speak! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastellanDeMolay Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I ran 4 missile launchers in every edition since 3rd, and they have generally done well, until 6th. Vehicles are too tough now.The rule of cool through! That, and massed Autocannons, are two of my favourites. That said, I think 7th has perhaps changed this too much. How about as an interesting alternative to four ML... Tactical Terminators with Cyclones (or AC if you so desire) this way you have some dudes who can move and fire each turn, so can keep up with your force and are a lot more survivable too. Will make a mess of anything they eventually reach too. Could make a very nice "second wave" so to speak! Points cost is prohibitive for a unit that can take all of 1 Heavy Weapon for every 5 marines, and who will (presumably) primarily be firing on armour, which the Stormbolters are inneffective against. You'd basically be paying 160 points for a bunch of guys to stand around with their power thumbs in their thermal exhausts, while the one useful guy plays with fireworks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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