calvin the wraithlord Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If his Wk is on the skyshield beside other troops that are not invisible, template at the other guys or fire blast weps they can hit the WK, also, oddly enough as an eldar player i can honestly say that bikes are probley your best bet, pile of bikes with grav weps and meltas?(not sure you can use meltas or if thats only chaos) and you will cause him to tear up, plus the WK is not really that big a threat there more of a fire magnet, concentrate on killing his Seerstar and his army will fall apart, the reason he has those guys on the landing pad is because he wants you to waste your units attacking them, literally ignore them and nuke his Psykers, once there down its gg you can pick whats left off at your leisure. ALSO REMEMBER SERPENTS HAVE NO SAVE VS GRAV WEAPONS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 @ Calvin. Could you give us a source for WS not having save vs grav please? Probably just me but that info will come in so very handy at a tourny soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 A Serpent's Shield reduces a Penetrating Hit to a Glance. Grav causes an Immobilisation result and HP on a roll of a six - there's no penetration roll to downgrade and thus the SS is ineffective. Regarding a cover save, check the tournament FAQ or with the organisers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Ya, small qualifier there- they will get a jink save, just not the downgrade roll as jolemai noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Ya, small qualifier there- they will get a jink save, just not the downgrade roll as jolemai noted. Are you sure about that? Jink can only be taken Vs normal damage, since grav is grav theres a good chance you cant jink against it, i may be wrong ut i have heard alot of people say you cant jink vs grav, something to do with rules wording or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I don't have the rulebook with me but I think it was one of the things they fixed in 7th. Check the graviton weapons entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 As far as I remember - don't have BRB at the mo as my phone is being fixed - I had a look last week and there doesn't appear to be anything qualifying as pretty much 'ignores cover' in the Graviton entry. And a unit doesn't have to have moved in order to get jink, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I forget the exact line of reasoning but I think it is something like BRB states that jinking provides a save against glancing and penetrating hits. The Grav gun causes an immobilized result and 1 HP of damage on the roll of a 6. Technically it does not glance or penetrate so a jink save does not apply. I am not sure I agree with this line of reasoning and I am pretty sure it is not what was intended. However going by the letter of the law, there was certainly some weight behind it in 6th. I cannot remember off the top of my head whether 7th edition has clarified this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I've been meaning to ask, what the hell is wrong with this damn Eldar Shield?I returned recently to the hobby (less than a month) and still trying to catch up with all the new stuff. So an Eldar player in my LGG told me about those shields in his Wave Serpent, that he can choose to fire as a weapon. even though he also uses them to modify his jinx saves. Is this how it's supposed to work? vahouth- it doesnt modify the jink* save, its a little worse, it can be shot as a weapon, or if its not shot as such in the previous shooting phase, can covert penetrating hits to glancing hits (on like a 2+ i think). There may be wargear to make the jink 3+, though i'm unsure at the moment about that!!! The shield is d6+1, s7, ignores cover- which is silly silly. Really is incredibly overpowered. lolHe was playing first and after shooting with the shields in his turn, later in my first turn he jinxed, claiming a 2+ cover save. 4+ from jinx, up to 3+ with the shields and finally to 2+ due to first turn nightfight. I found his shields really frustrating to the point that reminded me the 4th Edition Eldar shields. I simply couldn't do damage to them, and he kept on shooting 17 twin linked shots S6 &S7 with each of his Serpents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veneratedaniel Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Wrath Knight won't be able to charge the furious as you can't charge if you can't place the model there, also, check how he is playing the landing pad, as first time furious drops you can flamer him, you can flamer multiple parts of terrain skypad isn't a building. Double check that in the rules, I'm just going of the top of my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I forget the exact line of reasoning but I think it is something like BRB states that jinking provides a save against glancing and penetrating hits. The Grav gun causes an immobilized result and 1 HP of damage on the roll of a 6. Technically it does not glance or penetrate so a jink save does not apply. I am not sure I agree with this line of reasoning and I am pretty sure it is not what was intended. However going by the letter of the law, there was certainly some weight behind it in 6th. I cannot remember off the top of my head whether 7th edition has clarified this at all. Is correct, grav away and watch eldar QQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I forget the exact line of reasoning but I think it is something like BRB states that jinking provides a save against glancing and penetrating hits. The Grav gun causes an immobilized result and 1 HP of damage on the roll of a 6. Technically it does not glance or penetrate so a jink save does not apply. I am not sure I agree with this line of reasoning and I am pretty sure it is not what was intended. However going by the letter of the law, there was certainly some weight behind it in 6th. I cannot remember off the top of my head whether 7th edition has clarified this at all. Doesn't seem to be the case in 7th: “When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.” If definitely say you can Jink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yup yup! 7th ed cleared it up! It was definitely the case in 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 lolHe was playing first and after shooting with the shields in his turn, later in my first turn he jinxed, claiming a 2+ cover save. 4+ from jinx, up to 3+ with the shields and finally to 2+ due to first turn nightfight. I found his shields really frustrating to the point that reminded me the 4th Edition Eldar shields. I simply couldn't do damage to them, and he kept on shooting 17 twin linked shots S6 &S7 with each of his Serpents. Ah! Ya, the improvement to the save is not from the Serpent Shields but from "Holo Fields" That would indeed give you a 2+ jink*. (Dont forget the snap shots the next turn, though!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Doesn't seem to be the case in 7th: “When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.” If definitely say you can Jink. Sure you can jink but as it stands, I am not sure the jink save is applicable to grav weapons. I am an Eldar player too so if anyone can convincingly argue RAW why we would get a jink save vs Grav, I would be very grateful. The only thing that springs to mind is the Grav Amp. I don't have the SM codex but I think that it provides a reroll to wound and to penetrate armour. Can anyone give the exact wording of Grav Amp? If it specifies an armour penetration roll then the implication is that a skimmer can jink as the roll a grav gun makes is a penetration roll (or else the Grav Amp wouldn't be able to provide a reroll). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Grav doesn't ignore cover. Units will still get a cover save against the shot. Why would Jink be ignored? For a start, it represents the model "moving" (or at least trying to move) out of the way of the shot. From a practical point of view, Grav is a shot - not a wave, AoE or a template, so there would be something to avoid. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Grav doesn't ignore cover. Units will still get a cover save against the shot. Why would Jink be ignored? For a start, it represents the model "moving" (or at least trying to move) out of the way of the shot. From a practical point of view, Grav is a shot - not a wave, AoE or a template, so there would be something to avoid. No? We don't save against shots, hits or effects. We save wounds, pens and glances. Every situation beyond that needs special rules if it's going to work any differently. So RAW it's pretty clear, but most people I've seen houserule it to allow cover. (I did check and I was wrong, there's nothing in the graviton USR, grav weapon entry or jink USR about allowing cover/jink. Nor is there anything in the FAQs.... So still the same issue as last ed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Grav doesn't ignore cover. Units will still get a cover save against the shot. Why would Jink be ignored? For a start, it represents the model "moving" (or at least trying to move) out of the way of the shot. From a practical point of view, Grav is a shot - not a wave, AoE or a template, so there would be something to avoid. No? Grav does not ignore cover per-se. It is just that vehicle cover saves only apply vs glancing or penetrating hits. Grav guns do not roll to penetrate armour, they make a separate roll and on a 6, they inflict 1HP and cause an immobilised result. I do not think it makes much sense and I am not sure it is what was intended. But the way the rules are written, you do not get cover saves versus grav. The cover rules specify what you can take cover saves against and grav does not fall into those categories. Having said that, I think that the wording on Grav Amp does need checking if anyone has it handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Was just wondering really. You don't feel a Jink save differs from a standard cover save? As for the Grav Amp, C:SM page 124: When rolling to wound with a grav-weapon, or rolling to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Was just wondering really. You don't feel a Jink save differs from a standard cover save? As for the Grav Amp, C:SM page 124: When rolling to wound with a grav-weapon, or rolling to determine its effects on a vehicle, the bearer can re-roll the result What I think is that cover and jinking should apply vs grav weapons. However that is not what a strict interpretation of the rules as written seem to indicate. If a group was happy to make a house rule allowing cover/jink vs grav then I would be fully in support of it. Thanks for posting the Grav Amp rules. It specifies "effects on a vehicle" rather than mentioning anything about glancing or penetrating armour. This (unfortunately) does lend weight to the interpretation that jinking/cover does not provide vehicles with protection vs grav. This creates a silly inconsistency as infantry models can take a cover save against grav as it causes wounds on infantry models as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Four Twinlinked shots at BS4. So that's a potential of eight chances to hit. You only need one of them to hit to get laser-lock. The likelihood of missing them all, with the rerolls, is pretty low. I've never seen it happen, personally. Indeed. Even shooting at flyers/FMC you're almost guaranteed to get a hit from the Scatter Laser, thus twin-linking the shield and cannon. When I've played as Eldar I've never really felt the need to take AA while I'm using Serpents. Shooting Serpents is like shooting vehicles in 5th ed, where you'd aim to stun lock them. You shoot Serpents until they jink so they snap fire next turn, then move on to the next one If you want to blow a Serpent up, you punch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Regarding grav and cover, check: vehicles and cover - obscured targets, bullet point 4 in the BBB. It mentions why grav weapons no longer ignores cover by RAW (took me a while to find, but I knew I remembered it from somewhere) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Regarding grav and cover, check: vehicles and cover - obscured targets, bullet point 4 in the BBB. It mentions why grav weapons no longer ignores cover by RAW (took me a while to find, but I knew I remembered it from somewhere) Indeed it does, nice catch Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets If a target is obscured a suffers a glancing hit, penetrating hit, or is otherwise hit by an enemy shooting attack that inflicts damage upon it (such as being hit by a weapon with the Graviton special rule), it must make a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound... <snip> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 And there it was! I was so sure I had read it when the new edition hit, but then I just couldn't find it. I don't want to say that some people are notoriously bad at writing rule books.. but :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Regarding grav and cover, check: vehicles and cover - obscured targets, bullet point 4 in the BBB. It mentions why grav weapons no longer ignores cover by RAW (took me a while to find, but I knew I remembered it from somewhere) Good find! Thanks for clarifying that. My Eldar can breathe a little easier. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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