Lets chat Raptor Cults! Lists, God worship and more!

[Noctem Cultor]

Hi all,

 

I just thought id start up a chat on something that my sights are set on for my next project once all is painted.

Raptor cults!

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad165/Liamgregg1988/raptorwing_zps1b9bb65e.jpg

 

These guys have always interested me just from looks alone (I'm talking crazy Bat wing back pack era). But I still feel like we are in the dark with Raptor cults, the models have changed but the fluff has stayed very similar.

 

Raptor cults have changed in the warp and often fight like mercenaries rather than under a legions banner. Often Raptor cults will enslave Daemon Furies (alot of Raptors being Night Lords and shunning Daemonic pacts).

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad165/Liamgregg1988/raptorlord_zps2c1334ce.jpg

 

Now there are a few things that have surfaced that interest me, for one the rumour that Raptors worship a lesser God (maybe a God of the Hunt?).

Also Furies are rumoured to be beings who used Chaos for their own ends not for the whim of a God so they are cursed to travel the warp wilds without having access to a Gods realm.

Now the wild warp is where Raptor cults capture Furies for the own ends, wouldn't it be ironic if such a thing was to damn your soul into becoming a fury?

 

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad165/Liamgregg1988/furies_zps66fe6f9b.jpg

 

Also with the addition of Warp Talons could there be more than pack structure to a Raptor cult? These Warp changed Raptors become something else a little more bestial and deadly in a new way. Would they be shunned by other Raptors and moved to the bottom of the command chain or valued in the art of war as weapons of great importance?

 

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad165/Liamgregg1988/WarpTalon_zps51dde274.jpg

 

List wise I'm not seeing alot of ways to make a good fluffy Raptor Cult without going Unbound. (Im going to hopefully work out 1500pts to team with my 1500pts HH NLs)

 

So of course Raptor Lord and Raptor buddies and then what?

 

Personally I like the idea of armoured Furies (with Daemonic runes on the armour binding them) being lead by Raptor Beast masters.

Think of the Dark Eldar Beast Master concept only more chains and a attack do pack look to the group.

 

Maybe some ragged broken winged furies count as cultists broken and cast aside by their uncaring masters but still able to reap death?

 

A Giant Flying Damon maybe a Fury Matriarch? (Terrorgheist) Heldrake count as like Aidoneus did on the forum.

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad165/Liamgregg1988/terrorgheistdaemon_zpsbf11e82d.jpg

 

So lets discuss!

[hushrong]

This topic has me smiling!

 

Quite some time ago I started to build a Kill Team of Raptors. Love them in that game system due to many factors. My team was originally dedicated to the Iron Warriors but I have decided to make them go the Night Lord route.

 

When they were destined for IV Legio glory I imagined my raptors as Air Combat Controllers. Specialists that descended upon the enemy stalking them and making note of their every move. They would coordinate their findings back to their Grand Company for use in planning operations. Not only would they observe from a distance they could also act by attacking the enemy directly. They would ambush patrols, assassinate officers, and sabotage enemy equipment. Even more so, they would coordinate strikes by being the eyes and ears of artillery units and bomber squadrons.

 

Once the Hounds of Perturabo they are now the Lords of Nothing:

 

 

http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p779/theironwithin/image_zps05662e94.jpg

 

They are named as such because I have done nothing with them in a long time. I have five more to build which will give me a total of nine to paint whenever that time comes.

 

Thinking again about these guys and 7th edition I immediately thought of building an army and pretty much thought of using Unbound, much like yourself. However, my thousand point list consisted of two ten-man squads of raptors (melta, flamer, and champ upgrades), one raptor lord (burning brand and black mace), a raptor sorcerer, and two heldrakes. The fluff idea being this is an army that rains down from the heavens only to bring hellfire with it. I have everything except a few more raptors to make it happen.

 

My concern is that this army wouldn't hit too hard and could get tabled quickly. Of course this army would be built for fun but I still want them to bare fangs and bite when faced with opposition.

 

The raptors can deep strike but with so few things in the army I wouldn't do that. That means they start in my deployment and have to work their way to the enemy to make use of melta weaponry on armor and use flamers/pistols on infantry before charging. Risky business when I only have two squads. They would definitely be boosting around making use of whatever cover I could find.

 

The heldrakes can come in hopefully right at the start of turn two strike at armor and light up some infantry as well. They would have to tangle with other enemy fliers too if/when the time comes.

 

With that in mind I started to wonder about adding some forgeworld goodies. If I bunk up to 1500 points something can be added in. I have a storm eagle sitting on a shelf that could be put to use. I could cram in some stock troops to capture objectives in it and deliver them on swift wings before kicking them out. Then I also started to wonder about the fire raptor. I don't have one but have heard they are nasty.

 

Well, just some ideas I had knocking around the old noggin.

 

Fluff wise, my raptors will be attached with my future Zone Mortalis army of Iron Warriors. Reusing old fluff from such team ups I tried building in the past the NL Raptors escaped the retreat from Terra alongside the IW and have stayed with them since.

 

[Noctem Cultor]

The Iron Warrior Raptors sound like an interesting concept.

 

Most fluffy lists I've looked at are not very fluffy, you can save points by going basic set up with raptors but where's the fun in that.

 

Sounds good, Cults like the Night Lords Bleeding Eyes are Raptors and Bleeding Eyes before they are Night Lords. From most of the fluff I've read Raptor cults work along side those that offer power or the greatest rewards at that current time, so a NL Raptor force working alongside an Iron Warriors army makes alot of sense to me. Especially when you think of the contrast in specialty. Wouldn't you hire professional Raptors so you can get back to siege warfare?

[Lagrath]

I think Raptors with the Wrath banner and a fast vehicle with the IA upgrade would be good. Free FNP for all your raptor squads.

[Kilofix]

I've always wondered what the NL Bleeding Eyes were. Just products of Mutation. Or was it something specifically Daemonic.

[hushrong]

The Iron Warrior Raptors sound like an interesting concept.

-Truth be told I think the Air Combat Controller idea would work very well for Alpha Legion more.

Most fluffy lists I've looked at are not very fluffy, you can save points by going basic set up with raptors but where's the fun in that.

-My original list was 8 raptors, combi-flamer & melta bomb on my champ, and mark of Khorne (for use on the charge). I didn't want my IW to have a god's mark so I dropped it and added another raptor. Then I changed it to make an even two hundred points list. 10 raptors and two meltaguns. Dropping the combi-weapon and melta bomb off my champ allowed this.

Sounds good, Cults like the Night Lords Bleeding Eyes are Raptors and Bleeding Eyes before they are Night Lords. From most of the fluff I've read Raptor cults work along side those that offer power or the greatest rewards at that current time, so a NL Raptor force working alongside an Iron Warriors army makes alot of sense to me. Especially when you think of the contrast in specialty. Wouldn't you hire professional Raptors so you can get back to siege warfare?

-I also agree like the notion of raptors being raptors first and foremost. It has a nice renegade ring to it. I will have to cook up some fluff again to make this work for my own force. I've tried building a NL/IW army combo since 2010: the proof. All these years and no progress.

I've always wondered what the NL Bleeding Eyes were. Just products of Mutation. Or was it something specifically Daemonic.

I want to say mutation. When not in flight I think they crawl around like dogs using their arms and legs. Big, jump pack wearing, flesh eating dogs with a lot of hate in their hearts. The warp does stuff like that and messes with your clocks.

[Kol Saresk]

Is fluff up for discussion as part of the debate?

[hushrong]

Is fluff up for discussion as part of the debate?

Whether it's stuff from GW or something you've come up with I would say yes! More info and ideas never hurt.

[Strazhakov]

I like this topic! Raptors are my favorite unit next to Noise Marines.

 

I'm actually in the middle of building a fluffy Raptor Cult myself and I think all you really need for a proper cult army are Jump Pack Lords/Sorcs, Raptors, Talons, Furies and Heldrakes. Might not be the most powerful army but it should make for fun games, especially on city boards, because that's were Jump Troops shine.

 

My only problem are the Furies. I have a couple of the old/current ones and they look horribly dated. Besides the Daemonettes with Gargoyle wings I haven't found any alternatives yet.

 

 

I've always wondered what the NL Bleeding Eyes were. Just products of Mutation. Or was it something specifically Daemonic.

 

I think their feral behaviour, their hunched gait and their overall creepyness are just standard Raptor behaviour. They don't cause fear for nothing. But I always had the suspicion that at least Lucoryphus was touched by Nurgle. 

[Kol Saresk]

I was mostly going to expand on the official background.

 

So starting with the Raptors themselves. In the third, second-third, fourth and sixth edition Codices, they are described as hunters who prey upon the weak and do what they can to lengthen the hunt to lengthen the suffering. They are supremely arrogant, a trait leftover from when only the elites of the Legions were allowed to use Jump Packs back during the Great Crusade. This would be further reinforced by their rarity during the Scouring and Legion Wars and the natural cult-like fraternities that would spring from the arrogant joining the arrogant. After all, the elitists have a status quo to maintain.

 

Here, thing get iffy. If his personal account is to be believed, Zso Sahaal is responsible not for the creation of Assault Marines, but rather their implentation into a full-fledge unit as something other than "if it's necessary", which would inevitably lead to the creations of specialist units such as the Catulan Reavers, Dark Furies and Night Raptors. As a result, the Raptors come from all over and as far as percentages of how many comes from which Legion(or eventually, Chapters) is a matter of debate(read as fan opinion). The coincidence of names between the VIII Legion Night Raptors abd the Chaos Space Marine Raptors could be a coincidence, or one several dozen reasons. The most likely is that the Night raptors were simply the most infamous and were either used by the Imperium to name all chaos Assault Marines, or the other Cults took the title as a claim of authority, a "we are as good as they" gesture. Again, speculation.

 

Going from here, we move onto the cults. Almost nothing is known about the Cults. In the Index Astartes articles, it was said that the Imperium believes some of them might worship some type of avian-hunter minor power, thus explaining the rather uniform mutations all Raptors seem to suffer from. Of course there is no concrete evidence so Raptors could end up worshipping anything, if at all. It would really be up to specific Cult in question. Or perhaps even the individual.

 

Now an interesting note is that in Blood Reaver by A D-B, we are presented with the concept that the Raptors are loyal to each other first, their Cults second, and any other loyalties third. I say interesting because this leads to the concept that if two Raptors who were from different Cults ran into each other and needed aid, they would help one another, something that would seem to be almost contradictory to their elitist nature. Again, pointing back to their belief to maintain a self-created status quo. Of course, this is likely to change from Cult to Cult, but the fact it exists suggest a great many Cults share that belief. Much like how Motorcycle Clubs are bikers first, clubs second. Unless someone does or has done something really stupid.

 

Now, the Warp Talons. A new addition to the background of the Raptors. Essentially these are Raptors who are so mutated that they are able to travel through the warp, much like a Mandrake. In fact, their rules would seem to suggest that they are so tainted by the warp that they are only a step away from becoming full-fledged daemons, or are possessed. But ultimately, these are supreme hunters who can hunt their prey even through the warp, to anywhere. To me, that would make them the epitomized Raptor. Sort of like an alpha hunter. Or an Isengard Uruk-Hai among Morgoth's Orcs. The elite of the elitists.

 

Now, in third edition, we were presented with the idea that it is more common for Raptor Cults to ally themselves with Night Lord warbands than any others. And the reason specifically given was because of the similar mindsets. A pack mentality basically, with both groups recognizing each other as comrades who enjoy the same hunt for the same prey for the same reason.

 

Now, fan speculation leads to most Raptors being Night Lords, using Zso Sahaal's personal belief as an irrefutable statement of fact, thus further explaining the preferential treatment. We don't know, the facts just aren't there.

 

So in a way, we know quite a bit about the Raptors. And in another, we know nothing.

[Noctem Cultor]

@kol

Background fluff expansion welcomed

 

If you go by the line thought that Zso Sahaal started the first Night Raptors squad as a specialised Terror Assault unit (Pre him becoming 1st Captain of course) and this flourished in the Night Lords and inspired some of the other Legions Assault Marine squads. As with most units the defeat of Horus left the already rare Assault Marine units on the Traitors side depleted, the reason that they are known of Raptors is simply because the vast majority of them left were Night Raptors. So combine the majority rule and the Breaking of the Night Lords Legion into Warbands, your left with lots of Raptor Heavy Warbands hiring themselves/fighting with/against other Legions and within time the occupation of a Chaos Assault unit is simply known as a Raptor unit.

 

In spite of him not being the heir we were looking for, Like Uzas before me I like Zso so im going to believe him. Maybe the Night Lords before the Heresy had started pushing the use of Jump Packs and being the light and bloody fingered Legion the NIght Lords probally robbed the majority of Jump Packs available at the time.

 

But yes we have a very hit and miss amount of fluff on Raptors, hopefully a HH novel will  shed more light on how they started out before the mass fleeing into the EoT.

[Kol Saresk]

Even if we follow Zso Shaal's line of thought, currently in the Traitor Legions, only the Sons of Horus are shown to have enough specialist assault units to field them en masse whilethe Night Lords only have their specialists limited to the FA. The Night Lords are the third smallest Traitor Legion IIRC, and that was at Istvaan. Following the battle of Sheol, one fifth confirmed, one quarter estimated of whatever makes it to that point is also destroyed. And from there the numbers spiral further and further. We simply don't know if the majority does or even could apply because tere are entire companies made of Catulan Reavers, but Night Lord companies are limited in the number of Night Raptors they can field. In game terms, this is the SoH's RoW that makes Reavers a Troop choice while the NL have no such option.

 

If we went with the Imperium naming them all Raptors because of the infamy of the VIII Legion, that theory gains more traction. Reason being is that when everyone else ran to the Eye of Terror, the Night lords spent the next one hundred years terrorizing the Eastern Fringe. For the longest time, they were the face of the Traitor Legions. And tey were deemed such a dangerous threat the Ultramarines and all of their accumulated Second Founding successors were deemed to be necessary to remove them.

 

Again, neither theory is more viable than the other so which one you go with is ultimately your choice. But both are still theories, not fact.

[Kilofix]

It could be some blend of the two. Remember that there were other NL warbands that were much larger than Talos' that were aligned with and running with the Black Legion. The SoH Reavers might have been consolidated with the NL Raptors while keeping the latter's labeling.

[MaliGn]

Isn't this the point of open-ended world building? To provide us with the tools to interpret the books in our own ways? It has been stated before that the Codexes are written from a loosely imperial neutral viewpoint, and with the level of understanding given to them. There is space in the galaxy and the many versions of it that each game occupies for any and all previously stated examples, also none of them and also myriad new and never before seen alternatives. Nothing is 100% fixed. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

With regards alternative fury models there are the big winged crypt ghoul things in the vampire counts fantasy range, is it Varghouls? One of the early dual kits anyway.

 

I'd quite like some kathartes from Anthony reynolds' Word Bearers series.

[Noctem Cultor]

Loyalist branding makes sense. A public spin is to call your enemy the bad guys so to draw lines between similarities you name enemy Assault Marines Raptors and your able to make them sound more corrupt.

 

In all honesty Marines don't normally say raptor or assault units as they use squad number designations so common nicknames could stick.

 

I have always wondered about Raptor foot claws the previous edition hawk style models had a mechanical. Is this warp mutation or built for use?

[hushrong]

That is a great addition of background, Kol!

 

I always assumed Raptor was the term used because they were airborne predators. With the addition of the VIII Legion Night Raptors I wonder if another idea could be drawn from their infamy. The sheer brutality of an astartes is magnified with a jump pack. Couple that with the nightmarish behaviors of the Night Lords and you have a unit that is dreaded. Their reputation precedes them and when thinking of Traitor Assault Marines the raptors of the VIII Legion are the first to come to mind cementing the terminology used to identify them.

 

Just another open ended idea.

 

As for the legs I do not know where the claws comes from. From the look of the models I want to say they are mechanical and maybe serve a purpose. I would assumed the feet and much of the legs are amputated to gain bionic, clawed feet. One idea is that it is to replace injured legs. The impact of constantly cannon-balling into the ground at high speed can take its toll on the legs, maybe even for an astartes. This is similar to paratroopers who commonly develop back injuries that stay with them for life. Perhaps a few raptors opted for bionics and it became 'fashionable' among raptors to get bionic clawed feet.

 

Regardless, this is my favorite look for a raptors:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/spacemarine/images/0/05/Csm_raptor_cutout.png/revision/latest?cb=20110921164424

[MaliGn]

Didn't earlier background describe them as living almost entirely aerial lives when not in combat? The claws would make roosting and perching on narrow ledges easier, so it certainly seems to have a practical application. Since it has become clear that raptors are entirely specialised rather than a space marine with a jump pack. It's once of those things where it could have been a mechanical appendage, or a mutation of the metal of the armour itself. Many other mutations occur on the actual battle plate of the chaps marines rather than the flesh within so that makes as much sense as anything else.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall if that was the case or not, but they are said to enjoy the havit of swooping down onto their prey. Combine that with their natural habit of developing avian-like mutations, and talons suddenly seem very useful.

[Kilofix]

Could be like an Argel Tal thing where they eventually bond with their armor and it mutates.

[Kilofix]

Thread needs pics.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Could be like an Argel Tal thing where they eventually bond with their armor and it mutates.

Well, technically Argel Tal did it because he was possessed. But its been a longstanding tradition that Chaos Space Marines eventually bond with their armor to the point it becomes organic metal, so plausible to the extreme.

[Strazhakov]

I alway wondered if Raptors need fuel for their Jetpacks in the same way Assault Marines do? 

Probably only the novice ones that haven't fully fused and bonded with their armour..

 

I mean Warp Talons can jump/fly/tear through (un)reality so I doubt they worry too much about gas prices. They are closer to Daemons than Astartes anyway. Even more so than Possessed.

 

Also Guns that manufacture their own ammunition are not unheard of so I guess the same could go for Promethium or whatever you put into a Jetpack.

[Noctem Cultor]

I always assumed the jump packs run off of the power armour power system grid that normal backpacks power. But Jump packs are bigger because the system effectively uses similar power levels due to the tech optimising its usage for parts that will generate its own thrust and maybe sustain its own power levels.

[Psykic_scribe]

I always assumed the jump packs run off of the power armour power system grid that normal backpacks power. But Jump packs are bigger because the system effectively uses similar power levels due to the tech optimising its usage for parts that will generate its own thrust and maybe sustain its own power levels.

 

Although much technology was lost in this millenium, I am happy to assume that the 40K engine efficiency is significantly higher. So these are not thirsty ramjets but wide enough for turbine enhancement much better than our Airbus/Dreamliner fossils.  However, I would struggle with Raptors loitering in the heavens for days without a revisit to the local servitor service station.

 

But if anyone has an explanation for the technology underpinning my beloved batwing Raptors flight, I am all ears (and claws).

[MaliGn]

The version of the jump pack used in the space marine video game at one point is discarded for being out of fuel, so I'm not sure that it is piggy backed on the powerpack of the armour. However, as with much of 40k tech I suspect that the jet packs are powered by narrativium.