New ideas for a Dark Angels Legion rules

[Slips]

I mean, sure, but I chalk that up more to Alpha Legion Shenanigans than a propensity to Volkite Weaponry.

 

..anyways.. 

 

As for DA Legion Rules, the Compulsory Champion could have a 6/12" Stubborn or Fleet bubble as an additional Special Rule and call it "Lead by Example" or something..

 

For Terminators you could have the option of 1 in 5 can take a Plasma Cannon or Volkite Culverin for X/Y points.

 

For Plasma Weapons, I'd keep it simple and have either a Forced Re-roll of 1 for Gets Hot! or a Re-roll for failed saves against it.

[Atia]

For Terminators you could have the option of 1 in 5 can take a Plasma Cannon or Volkite Culverin for X/Y points.

or the option to exchange a heavy flamer on infantry for a plasma cannon/volkite culverin ... so you can use plasma cannons on your tactical veteran squads (this would be just like the salamanders inferno pistol/heavy flamer rule ;>)

[depthcharge12]

Well I believe that Dark Angels will get both plasma and volkite as their domain :)

 

Athrawes did a cool idea with his Lightning bearers 2nd legion terminators. I won't copy it but each terminator has two volkite chargers and one has a volkite culverin.

 

I mean, sure, but I chalk that up more to Alpha Legion Shenanigans than a propensity to Volkite Weaponry.

 

..anyways.. 

 

As for DA Legion Rules, the Compulsory Champion could have a 6/12" Stubborn or Fleet bubble as an additional Special Rule and call it "Lead by Example" or something..

 

For Terminators you could have the option of 1 in 5 can take a Plasma Cannon or Volkite Culverin for X/Y points.

 

For Plasma Weapons, I'd keep it simple and have either a Forced Re-roll of 1 for Gets Hot! or a Re-roll for failed saves against it.

I really like that champion idea slipstream!

 

Would it be too much to add 2 rules, or would that be way too powerful? I think a 12" bubble of stubborn and crusader would be great.

[Slips]

I'd personally stick with one unless it comes with a slight points increase; say, 10 points. Because Stubborn is already pretty strong in 30k with the lack of ATSKNF adding Crusader onto that makes it even more powerful.

 

Then again, that Legion Champion then becomes a giant walking target.

[depthcharge12]

I'd personally stick with one unless it comes with a slight points increase; say, 10 points. Because Stubborn is already pretty strong in 30k with the lack of ATSKNF adding Crusader onto that makes it even more powerful.

 

Then again, that Legion Champion then becomes a giant walking target.

I think that would be suitable for a paladin model no?

 

Paladin

Points: Champion +15

 

Extra rules-

 

"Oath Sworn"

Dark Angel paladins represent the pride and soul of their legion. Each is chosen from among the best fighters the legion has to offer - they lead charges, direct the flow of battle from the front lines, and challenge the legion's greatest foes. It is no wonder why fellow brother-knights will fight harder in his presence.

 

The Paladin gives the crusader and stubborn USR to all friendly Dark Angels units within 12" of the model.

 

The Paladin must also always issue and accept challenges as well as perform heroic intervention when possible. The Paladin and his unit may not elect to leave combat via "Our Weapons are Useless" special rule.

 

When the Paladin removes the last wound from an enemy character or independent character, the DA player gains +1 VP. Any remaining independent character or character at the end of the game give the opponent +2 VPs.

[Sevatar]

I like idea of +1WS/re roll Reserves/have to challenge. Much like Sons of Horus.

Comvined with Stubborn and estoric benefits is a bit too powerful in my opinion.

[simison]

So, now that you have the Paladin, which legion traits do you have?

[apologist]

To throw in my tupenny's worth:

 

Stubborn is not as fitting for Dark Angels as other legions (e.g. Imperial Fists). That's not to say Dark Angels aren't brave, but I'd suggest removing it and focussing on the things that are more central to the Angel's theme. 

 

I like the +1WS idea. That nicely touches on their Knightly character. It's a minor benefit (compared to others), and I'd be tempted to add a blanket +1LD (to max of 10) to the Angels as well. That represents their prideful nature as the First, but has different implications to stubborn.

 

As a minor drawback, I'd like to see something that represents their secretive and untrustworthy nature. Perhaps something like the Sons of Horus' Bitter Pride rule?

 

Here's my suggestions:

 

Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)

• Units with this special rule may always attempt to regroup regardless of casualties
• Pride of the First: Units with this special rule benefit from +1WS and +1LD, and all members may accept (but not issue) Challenges. Characters may issue challenges as normal.
• Secrets and lies: Units with this special rule may not benefit from the LD of an attached Independent Character for the purposes of Morale checks. 
• Prototype Legion: Legion Tactical Support Squads may be taken as Compulsory choices. Legion Tactical Support Squads taken as Compulsory choices may take:
  • Up to 15 additional Space Marines .................... +15 points each
  • One Space Marine may take a Nuncio-vox ........ +10 points
  • One Space Marine may carry a Legion Vexilla ... +10 points

[Kor'Vesh]

I like Apologist's Prototype Legion rule, but I think I'd limit it to squads armed with Volkite chargers. These were meant to be the original armament of the legions, so you expect DA to have plenty. The unit itself isn't so competitive as a Support Squad... particularly as you have to pay for the charger over the flamer. However, having the option to take small units of chargers as compulsary troops tax, or 20 man squads of martian death ray death seems much more appealing to me. I'm not sure there should be such an option for the other special weaopns though, it fluctuates from unweildly (20 flamers!) to excessively priced deathstorm (plasma). 

 

I'd then supplement it with Atia's plasma cannon swap rule (say +10/+15 points over a heavy bolter) which opens up some more fun options.

 

If you do this, you'd need a stronger draw-back than apologists though... maybe your original champion stuff could work here.

[depthcharge12]

I like your rules a lot better apologist!

 

Though I would agree the unit weapon must be a charger or caliver (I like the long range aspect, but not quite a heavy weapon in a sense).

 

I'd say a combination of your rules and my paladin (sans stubborn) would be good. I think crusader special rule to his unit or +1 I on the charge would be a fair bonus, no?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Whoa, Pride of the First is kind of broken, if every Legiones Astartes model can accept, especially with 'forced to challenge' models - Fulgrim especially because now all have WS5.

 

If you want challenge shenanigans, perhaps stop enemies from Glorious Interventions.

 

And +1WS is pretty good - WS 7 Praetors are Sevatar and Sigismund level and they are considered to be 'top 20' according to Alajos (who lasted a minute against the Lion in combat) alongside Corswain. If you're going for a CC heavy army, then a global +1 to hit isn't too bad. Maybe something like the Sons of Horus or Nigjt Lords - if you outnumber (or are outnumbered), they gain +1 WS and Ld.

 

Secrets and Lies - doesn't make sense that they don't listen to their own leaders.

 

Legion Tactical Support Squads as Compulsory? Whoa - that can be a bit OP as they coat less of a unit tax than Tac Squads, and also have a more viable application. I'd rather just allow Veteran Tactical Squads to have the option to lose Veteran Tactics and Implacable Advance in exchange for becoming available as a Compulsory Troops.

 

Or as Kor'Vesh suggests - allowing Tac Squads to replace Boltguns with Volkite Chargers or Bolt Pistols with Serpenta (+3pts/2pts respectively i think balances it without being too expensive.

[depthcharge12]

I think I'd narrow it down to this:

 

"Walk the Circle"

When outnumbered in cc, all dark angels units in combat gain +1 WS and Leadership.

 

Represents them fighting harder and staying cohesive.

[Saphrael]

I think we're starting to get there, and agree with the input from Apologist, Kor'Vesh and depthcharge, but I don't think we've hit an appropriate downside yet.

 

A few points:

• I like always being able to regroup, regardless of casualties, but that's a pretty big deal and it'd be the rule I'd drop in order to balance out our legion tactics
• Personally, I don't like the title 'Walk the Circle', it doesn't have enough gravitas and references a pretty bad HH novel. I prefer 'Honour of The First', which is a combination of my original suggestion and Apologist's. Also agree that the +1WS and +1Ld should only apply when outnumbered.
• Agree that 'Secrets and Lies' doesn't make much sense and that a version of Bitter Pride is probably the way to go. Maybe something like "The First walks alone" DA treat all Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience. Might be too harsh though and really limit list building. There's probably a way for a greater mind than mine to tone it down without mimicing 'Bitter Pride'
• If Tactical Support Squads only count as Compulsory when they're equipped with Volkites then I don't think it's OP
• I like the idea of the unique Paladin HQ, but I really don't see the need. Legions typically get 2 unique units and I'd rather have a 2 units than 1 unit and a slightly tweaked Praetor

In the interest of keeping the discussion going as we narrow down our legion rules, what else do people think we'll get?

 

Typically a legion receives:

• Primarch - fingers crossed for a skilled primarch statline: 8/6/6/6/6/6/5/10 2+/4++ (shooting)/3++ (combat) with the Lion Helm conveying 4++ to his unit
• 2 other characters - fingers crossed for a Corswain that matches Sevatar and maybe a completely new one since Luthor & Zahariel don't make much sense since they didn't really participate much and everyone knows what happened to Alajos and Nemiel.
• 2 unique units - I'd like to see a Deathwing Inner Circle Knight unit armed with relic blades and a completely new unit (i.e. not Ravenwing)
• 2-3 unique wargear pieces - some kind of knightly sword would be cool: +1S, AP3, two handed (is that the same as a Nostraman Chainglaive?). No idea for the others.
• 1 unique rite of war - no real ideas other than I'd like it to emphasise our combined arms approach to warfare, maybe include the rerolling reserve rolls rule here

Thoughts?

[Raktra]

Always being able to regroup is the basic aspect of the Legiones Astartes, that won't be gotten rid of.

[Athrawes]

 

 

 

• I like always being able to regroup, regardless of casualties, but that's a pretty big deal and it'd be the rule I'd drop in order to balance out our legion tactics

 

But that is the Legiones Astartes Rules, every single Legion has that as part of their Legion Traits.

[Saphrael]

 

 

But that is the Legiones Astartes Rules, every single Legion has that as part of their Legion Traits.

 

 

Yeah I completely brain-farted and read that as 'automatically regroup' a la ATSKNF. Ignore me (but do give your thoughts on my other musings).

[Raktra]

You could always go two units AND the tweaked Praetor. Iron Hands/Warriors got that treatment, so there's a precedence there.

[Slips]

Pretty sure WB also get a special Consul in the form of the Diabolist so having the Paladin Consul seems perfectly ok with me.

[depthcharge12]

I wasn't going to make just the paladin the only unit :) I was just spitballing ideas.

 

My ideal for an awesome terminator unit would have special swords and be WS5.

 

I'd love them to gain AP2 on their swords somehow but others might consider that OP even if they don't have a shooty weapon a la Phoenix Gaurd.

 

I was pondering using two different stances that affect the users' stats when wielding their two handed longswords (sword nerds please jump in here for correct verbiage :P).

 

Relic Greatsword

S +1 AP3 two handed, variable stance*

*must choose stance at the beginning of each assault phase,

 

"Keep them at arms length"

Knights use their swords in great sweeping fashions that build momentum and prevent the enemy from closing the gap.

Rules - this stance confers an additional +1 strength (for +2 total) and +1 initiative.

 

"Killing blow"

Knight uses their sword in an executors chopping manner to kill their foe.

Rules - change the AP of the sword to 2 and the sword becomes unwieldy.

[Raktra]

AP2 at initiative wouldn't be so bad if it's just at S4, least in my opinion. A pair of Terminators set up like that (say they're 40pts, sake of argument and all that) would cost only slightly less than a Castellax would. And a Castellax is way, way scarier.

[depthcharge12]

AP2 at initiative wouldn't be so bad if it's just at S4, least in my opinion. A pair of Terminators set up like that (say they're 40pts, sake of argument and all that) would cost only slightly less than a Castellax would. And a Castellax is way, way scarier.

The swords I did would be +1 S. So would S5 AP2 be that bad? It's the same as an axe but not unwieldy, however it's two handed so doesn't get an additional attack.

[Raktra]

That's why I said at S4 ;) Was a nudge-nudge to you.

[depthcharge12]

That's why I said at S4 ;) Was a nudge-nudge to you.

Ahhhh....

 

We of the Lions ilk are not very good at content clues - why ask Nemiel - wait where did he go...?

[Kor'Vesh]

• Personally, I don't like the title 'Walk the Circle', it doesn't have enough gravitas and references a pretty bad HH novel. I prefer 'Honour of The First', which is a combination of my original suggestion and Apologist's. Also agree that the +1WS and +1Ld should only apply when outnumbered.
• Agree that 'Secrets and Lies' doesn't make much sense and that a version of Bitter Pride is probably the way to go. Maybe something like "The First walks alone" DA treat all Battle Brothers as Allies of Convenience. Might be too harsh though and really limit list building. There's probably a way for a greater mind than mine to tone it down without mimicing 'Bitter Pride'
• If Tactical Support Squads only count as Compulsory when they're equipped with Volkites then I don't think it's OP

 

I think that limiting the WS and Ld bonus to being outnumbered is a really good idea, and should work well. I'd still advocate limiting the support squad to chargers only though - calivers are significantly better for the points with heavy being the only draw back. If I could take them as 5 man base sitters for my compulsary troops then I would. Limiting this to chargers makes things a little more interesting tactically, is fluffy, and actually makes the charger support squad a viable option in my mind. I'd not be against Hesh Kadesh's idea to make chargers and serpentas upgrades for the tact squad either - the only issue here is invalidating the charger support squad entirely!

 

I was thinking along similar lines to Saphrael regarding playing with the allies matrix for DA - I'm not sure it is right though. I had an idea that DA could be forced to deploy D3 additional unidentified Fake objectives in any objective based game in which they use allies. These would be worth no points when held, and represent the poor communication between the DA and there allies. Of course, that might penalise the enemy as much as the DA - unless you allow the enemy to score from them, and that might be a bit too harsh! Is there a workable idea in there somewhere?

[Sevatar]

For the blade... perhaps

Calibanite Blade: S of user/AP2/two handed.

 

Exchange with normal power weapon for free.