WarriorFish Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 You don't have to be mad to post here, but it helps... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3924593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
varchilde Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Definitely movement trays! One of my opponents used to use LOTR movement trays for his Orks. There are companies doing laser cut MDF trays that would work in a similar manner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3924629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoqqu Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 There is nothing mad with these numbers considering that one FoC from codex - AM can cost over 10K points easily... * It's mad that it can go over 20K if one tries hard enough... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3924688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think what makes it mad is that we have a single FOC choice that has a maximum of 135 (iirc) models. Most armies won't have that many guys in the whole detachment. We get it as a single troops choice. Good times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3924752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoqqu Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 138 + 6 transport vehicles :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3924841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Fun story, when I run my Guard, it is rare that I even consider vehicles lately. Don't get me wrong, my inner-treadhead is still there, he is just pouting that I only have a Baneblade and Shadowsword and not a company of each. My regular take all comers list looks like this, give or take a few options: Company Command: Tactical Auto-Reliquary, Regimental Standard, Fleet Officer, Master of Ordnance Company Command (XO): Power Claw 2 Primaris Psykers: Level 2, Force Staff 1 Commissar: Power Sword Platoon A Command: Autocannon Infantry: Bolter, Plasma Gun, Lascannon Infantry: Bolter, Plasma Gun, Lascannon Infantry: Bolter, Plasma Gun, Lascannon Heavy: Lascannons Heavy: Missiles w/ flakk Heavy: Mortars Platoon B Command: Power Sword (because WYSIWYG) Missile Launcher Infantry: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Meltagun Infantry: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Meltagun Infantry: Bolt Pistol, Flamer Infantry: Power Sword, Flamer Infantry: Meltagun Platoon C Command: Plasma Pistol, 2 Plasma Guns Infantry: Plasma Gun Infantry: Grenade Launcher Special: 3 Sniper Rifles Medusa Siege Carriage: 4 Crew Medusa Siege Carriage: 4 Crew 3 Heavy Mortars: 9 Crew It does fairly well and I usually take Santic for both psykers, although on occasion I do toss in a biomancy if Gate of Infinity is drawn on the first guy. I find that deep striking the 50 blob squad around is hilarious and unexpected, especially if I can still be in order range for FRFSRF (Bellowing Voice warlord trait helps). Even still, casting Hammer Hand and Iron Arm on one psyker if you can get it can be truly epic. Either one is nice too. Fun story about the last point. I run both in one unit and drew Biomancy and Sanctic for both. Got Hammerhand and Iron Arm on one of them who survived the game. Fighting Nids, I generally got my powers to go off every turn, including Force on the times I needed it, which was typically when Iron Arm or Hammerhand failed. The Commissar died early on to something which was good as it turned out I kept periling and rolling 6 with passed Ld tests, so he spent most turns with a 3+ invulnerable and fleshbane. Throughout the game, one psyker killed in the assault a Broodlord, loads of Genestealers, a Carnifex, a Tervigon, and the Swarmlord. It was quite something to see Primaris Psyker Goku go Super Sayian and punch out a Tyranid army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3925002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomericus Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Go Guard,who says you need tanks! clug their guns with bodies! Armies like this can work very well,,,I've found that it either slaughters everything or dies to the last man,so think ahead what each unit needs to do,where they need to go,as one big draw back can be time,if it takes you too long to move some people can become annoyed and not want to face it so Ive focused on mastering speed set up and movement,shifting things rather quickly,the other benefit of this is it can throw off your oppent,suprising them at how fast a foot list can move and be moved. heres my list, HQ CCS-60+MOO-20+standard-15Carapace armour-5+Carapace Armourx4-8-108 Priestsx2-50====158 Elites Ratling/sniper squad=30 Troops PCS+flamerx2+Grenade Launcherx2-50 IS+autocannon+grenade launcher-65 IS+autocannon+grenade launcher-65 HWT-45+lascannonx3-60-105 HWT-45+lascannonx3-60-105 Conscript Squad-60------------------450 PCS+flamer-5x2+Grenade Launcherx2-50 IS+autocannon+grenade launcher-65 IS+autocannon+grenade launcher-65 HWT-45+lascannonx3-60-105 Conscript Squad-60-------------------345 =GrenadierGuards= Vet Squad-60+meltagunx3-30+Lascannon-20+CarapaceArmour-15+free shotgun=125 Vet Squad-60+meltagunx3-30+Lascannon-20+CarapaceArmour-15+free shotgun=125 Vet Squad-60+meltagunx3-30+Lascannon-20+CarapaceArmour-15+free shotgun=125---375 Fast Attack Rough Rider Squadron+2-77+Flamerx2-10-87 Rough Rider Squadron+2-77+Flamerx2-10-87 Rough Rider Squadron+2-77+Flamerx2-10-87-----261 Heavy Support Wyvern Batteryx2=130 Earthshaker Battery-75 Earthshaker Battery-75-----280 ADL + Quadgun-100 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Replace those Wyverns with some quad mortars and I'm down Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Fun story, when I run my Guard, it is rare that I even consider vehicles lately. Don't get me wrong, my inner-treadhead is still there, he is just pouting that I only have a Baneblade and Shadowsword and not a company of each. My regular take all comers list looks like this, give or take a few options: Company Command: Tactical Auto-Reliquary, Regimental Standard, Fleet Officer, Master of Ordnance Company Command (XO): Power Claw 2 Primaris Psykers: Level 2, Force Staff 1 Commissar: Power Sword Platoon A Command: Autocannon Infantry: Bolter, Plasma Gun, Lascannon Infantry: Bolter, Plasma Gun, Lascannon Infantry: Bolter, Plasma Gun, Lascannon Heavy: Lascannons Heavy: Missiles w/ flakk Heavy: Mortars Platoon B Command: Power Sword (because WYSIWYG) Missile Launcher Infantry: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Meltagun Infantry: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Meltagun Infantry: Bolt Pistol, Flamer Infantry: Power Sword, Flamer Infantry: Meltagun Platoon C Command: Plasma Pistol, 2 Plasma Guns Infantry: Plasma Gun Infantry: Grenade Launcher Special: 3 Sniper Rifles Medusa Siege Carriage: 4 Crew Medusa Siege Carriage: 4 Crew 3 Heavy Mortars: 9 Crew It does fairly well and I usually take Santic for both psykers, although on occasion I do toss in a biomancy if Gate of Infinity is drawn on the first guy. I find that deep striking the 50 blob squad around is hilarious and unexpected, especially if I can still be in order range for FRFSRF (Bellowing Voice warlord trait helps). Even still, casting Hammer Hand and Iron Arm on one psyker if you can get it can be truly epic. Either one is nice too. Fun story about the last point. I run both in one unit and drew Biomancy and Sanctic for both. Got Hammerhand and Iron Arm on one of them who survived the game. Fighting Nids, I generally got my powers to go off every turn, including Force on the times I needed it, which was typically when Iron Arm or Hammerhand failed. The Commissar died early on to something which was good as it turned out I kept periling and rolling 6 with passed Ld tests, so he spent most turns with a 3+ invulnerable and fleshbane. Throughout the game, one psyker killed in the assault a Broodlord, loads of Genestealers, a Carnifex, a Tervigon, and the Swarmlord. It was quite something to see Primaris Psyker Goku go Super Sayian and punch out a Tyranid army. Oh my, I like! As we are not using named characters in our group Pask is a no-no and I am tending to infantry heavy lists lately - which have similarities to yours. Are Primaris Psykers the most overlooked unit in the codex or what? His stats are awesome, esp if ML2 and carrying a force axe. Biomancy would be my go to for melee heavy blobs (conscripts) t0o, all other divination or sanctic probably. I'll add in some inquisitors for high LD value, grenades, second power weapon + cheap warp charge henchman batteries (2 accolytes + 1 psyker) and now we have -lots of bodies -with good weapons (melter/plasma + auto or lascannon), -high LD or fearless, -orders -powers. - boardcontrol and mobility if lucky Awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 if you're already adding in inquisitors, why bother with primaris psychers? inquisitors are better in every aspect when compared to our psychers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 if you're already adding in inquisitors, why bother with primaris psychers? inquisitors are better in every aspect when compared to our psychers... Apart from price,that is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 price? are you talking pts or ££? mine are all converted so pretty much just as expensive as my primaris psycher. a ordo ... inquisitor with the psycher upgrade comes in at 5 pts more than a primaris. for those extra 5 pts you get: -Ld 10 -+1A -+1I -carapace armour -bolt pistol -krak grenades -psych out grenades -no it's for your own good -stubborn how is that not worth those measely 5 pts? the only downside is that they can't be upgrades to ML2, however, for those points you could just get extra psychers in small warbands to add to your warppool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Primaris Psykers are generally a better deal than Inquisitors overall. When you compare them at mastery level 1, no, the Inquisitor is superior, but for 20 more points you can have mastery level 2 on the Primaris. Alone that may not entirely be worth it as you can add Psykers to an Inquisitorial retinue for 10 points a pop. However, these psykers must take that barrage power and they are another FOC slot compares to the Primaris being 1-3 per detachment without taking up a FOC slot. It is also important to note that Inquisitors lack biomancy. I am not saying that the Primaris is always the better choice, but when you are looking to buff your units in a Guard list through a variety of powers with Divination, Sanctic, and Biomancy all being equally full of great powers for your purpose, the Primaris does do a better job for less points and they are more cost efficient from a FOC standpoint as well. Conversely, if you are looking to own the psychic phase through weight of warp charge, then for 415 points an Inquisitorial FOC, you get a THIS PHASE IS MINE! 37 warp charge plus whatever else you take. That being said there is absolutely nothing stopping you from taking both options... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 No upgrade for ML2 for Inquisitors was a huge oversight I think, but as Fasha said options are always good - so pick what works best for you :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3934978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Alone that may not entirely be worth it as you can add Psykers to an Inquisitorial retinue for 10 points a pop. However, these psykers must take that barrage power Henchmen Psykers generate from the same disciplines as Inquisitors. Conversely, if you are looking to own the psychic phase through weight of warp charge, then for 415 points an Inquisitorial FOC, you get a THIS PHASE IS MINE! 37 warp charge plus whatever else you take. No you don't. Henchmen Psykers have Brotherhood of Psykers, they're not individuals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3935011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Alone that may not entirely be worth it as you can add Psykers to an Inquisitorial retinue for 10 points a pop. However, these psykers must take that barrage power Henchmen Psykers generate from the same disciplines as Inquisitors. Conversely, if you are looking to own the psychic phase through weight of warp charge, then for 415 points an Inquisitorial FOC, you get a THIS PHASE IS MINE! 37 warp charge plus whatever else you take. No you don't. Henchmen Psykers have Brotherhood of Psykers, they're not individuals. I missed the Brotherhood of Psykers bit; good catch. So much for that. But they can draw from disciplines? I must be looking at old rules as all it says is that Psykers always knows Psychic Barrage. Still a pair of stock Acolytes and a Psyker comes to 18 points, so for 101 points an Inquisitional FOC, you can grab four warp charge still making it a cheap way to bolster your psychic phase nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3935056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 They updated the digital codexes for 7th edition. Exactly the same discipline options as the Inquisitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3935059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 if you're already adding in inquisitors, why bother with primaris psychers? inquisitors are better in every aspect when compared to our psychers... Simple answer - ML2. A second chance to roll on the table for the good powers, yes please. Besides, I use both. But instead of giving the inquisitor ML1 for 30 I tend to take 2x 2 Accolytes + 1 Psyker. Its one warpcharge more and a cheap expendeble unit. Inquisitors are better used for other buffs, imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3935472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 For your enjoyment (I had a bit of time at work today): http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302986-hordes-of-men-tournament-report/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3939679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Well done libris, you're doing us proud by proving all the naysayers and "general consensus" Internet denizens wrong - a tradition of the barracks since our inception :D You understand of course, the commissariat will be taking full credit... ;):lol: Thanks for the write up, it was a good read especially with the pictures :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3939728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 For an infantry heavy list I don't think using actual DKoK rules is something to be scorned outright. The fact that they do not take leadership tests for 25% casualties is very useful. It would be especially so in a list like you are describing. Plus making all those infantry platoons recycling? That could be insane. Krah grenades everywhere too. I have been surprised at how useful I've found them in my Krieg lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3939777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Oh, it wouldn't be scorned at all I'd think. I would probably prefer it. I'd drop Yarrick outright, since I don't need his warlord trait with Iron Discipline helping me out. The WS and krak grenades would help. What I'd really miss though would be the conscripts and priests. Those things are nuts. Losing them would probably make my list weaker in the long run. Well done libris, you're doing us proud by proving all the naysayers and "general consensus" Internet denizens wrong - a tradition of the barracks since our inception You understand of course, the commissariat will be taking full credit... Thanks for the write up, it was a good read especially with the pictures I wouldn't expect anything less from His commissariat, may its light forever guide us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3939788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Interesting lists, although it seems like that Veteran squad is dead weight. An autocannon and a grenade launcher? You could have probably spent the 75 points on weapon upgrades for the various command squads. Thanks for sharing! Anyway, I want to revisit the Demagogue options. The Nurgle covenant seems the best (as is typical), for getting you Blight Drones and Plague Zombies. Spending 20 points per unit to give them a 6+ feel no pain seems like a waste. The master of the horde option is also somewhat questionable. Yes, you can bring stuff back, but 5+ is not the most reliable of odds (ask me about my Adsecularis), and you still have to footslog from your board-edge without the benefit of a Run order to make you slightly faster. You can make 30-man units, but the larger the units, the less likely you are to get multiple chances at that roll, especially if your opponent is smart enough to leave a few surviving stragglers (better still if they are falling back) until the mop-up phase. I see the Master of the Horde as a good option for an allied detachment of renegades, where you already have a main list of hard-hitting and mobile options, and can use the renegades to bulk up your ranks. As for the Veterans that everyone hates, upon re-reading the Bloody-Handed Reaver rules, they sound better than ever. 85 points gets you 10 WS4 BS4 guardsmen with hot-shot lasguns. Then two of them can get hot-shot volley guns AND two more can get a special weapon. 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 volley guns, and 2 plasmaguns, all at BS4, is a whole lot of diddly for 135 points as far as GEQs go. And then you can give them deep strike or scout for +15 points, so you don't even need to invest in a transport if you don't want to. Upon further review, now that I am not confusing demo and breacher charges anymore, the Marauders do seem to suck, but then you have no reason not to take a covenant of Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3940501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The veteran squad was total dead weight but it was a highlander tournament so I had to have them. They're the first things dropped in a normal format. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3940556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 The veteran squad was total dead weight but it was a highlander tournament so I had to have them. They're the first things dropped in a normal format. Ah, not familiar with that format, does it require 3 troop choices? Anyway, at the end of the day, I ended up deciding to just skip out on IG/Renegades entirely, and will now be using my Death Korps as Solar Auxillia (who have awesome rules and derpy models). I still have craptons of IG tanks/flyers, so I'll bust out a mechanized list when the opponent doesn't want to face Horus Heresy stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301840-infantry-heavy-guard-can-it-work-img-heavy/page/2/#findComment-3940878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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