Dan Abnett: Know No Fear Discussion (Spoilers)

[Prot]

To start with I guess I should preface this by saying this is a conversation about the novel that will include a ton of spoilers. So please, if you prefer to read it first, please don't read any further.....

 

I loved this novel and to be honest I wasn't looking forward to it. It started with a bang and then each chapter seemed to have another, usually larger, ship falling from the sky to the surprised occupants of Calth.
 

 

But then things get really good, and very interesting. I love Aonid Theil so it's good to see his entry into the series. Surprisingly I read some of the novels backwards without knowing it. What happens is I think I've read about 95% of the HH novels but I buy a few at a time and move on when I can. It so happens I read Unremembered Empire first and thought it was great, and I just thought Know No Fear would kind of let me down... but I was glad to be wrong.

 

Anyway a few things I noted about the book that I liked, or... confused me.

 

- The sequence at the beginning is well done.... but hard to read. The Word Bearers are in what I assume are mess halls, mingling with Ultra's. An ugly conversation unfolds. The sort of thing I expect from a Word Bearer... a discussion about the power of betrayal, betraying a brother. You know what's going to happen when you read it, but it still made me grind my teeth. lol

 

- Loved the reference to red helmets on squad leaders and how it all comes about.

 

- Is the knife wound to Guilliman 'the' fatal wound? It's not clear to me....

 

- Further to that scene, do you think the same thing would have happened to Leman Russ? The reason I ask is because what lead to the knife wound was a psychic attack that I have to believe would have bounced off of Leman Russ when I think of the doom of the Thousand Sons. I realize Leman Russ was basically built to destroy stuff like that but I was surprised it actually 'hurt' Roboute.

 

- I've been reading a lot of the other Calth stuff, before and after Know No Fear and recommend it if you can get it. I'm halfway through Mark of Calth, finished a few audio novels (one by Gav Thorpe was actually okay.) and one of my favorite shorts: Censure (Theil)

 

- The use of 'antique' style weapons, jagged sharp pointy things, against Chaos is cool to me, and a clever continuation of the suggestion that our old earth lore of Vampires/Ghosts/etc come from Chaos. I always think the other authors should play on this a bit more.

 

- I liked Dan Abnett's Word Bearers quite a bit and got a kick out of their use of cultists, sending them in ahead.... also their use of 'daemon' bombing was cool.... great scene with the captured Word Bearer who wants to be killed and has to taunt the Ultra's for quite a while.

 

- Love the reference to make sure you kill an Ultramarine or you'll regret it...

 

- One major confusing thing for me... granted I had to put the book down a lot so maybe someone can clear this up... One scene Roboute is having a conversation with the stinky Logar, and then he seems to morph through the screen and I think the scene cuts? The next thing I read is the ship is infiltrated with daemons? And I guess some daemonic form of Logar? But I have no idea what else happened here?

 

It appears Theil goes through Roboute's special trophy room and grabs appropriate weaponry for killing daemons. The next time I read about Roboute he is on the outside of the ship skin, killing Word Bearers.

 

Did I miss some major battle between Logar and Guilliman?

 

- It's a weird feeling you get but it's masterfully pulled off. I mean the novel is obviously going to be about the fall of Calth, and there is no denying that the Word Bearers lay some serious waste and of course frying a sun usually doesn't help the ecosystem of the neighbouring planets... BUT there is still this sense of uncanny courage, camaraderie and refusing to die quietly by the Ultra's. I loved that theme... know no fear indeed.

 

Sorry I've babbled too much but wanted to get some discussion going for this great book. Let me know what you thought of it. I am dying to read Dan Abnett's Imperium Secondus???? (Not sure if that's what it's called).

 

[Komrk]

Daemon bomb blew up the bridge sending Guilliman into space

 

Edit:

 

Also, if you haven't read it yet, Rules of Engagement is a great short story with Ventanus I believe it is

[Prot]

Daemon bomb blew up the bridge sending Guilliman into space

 

Thanks.

 

Funny to use the phrase daemon Bomb like that. Last time I used it this often was back in 3rd edition when I had a buddy that used to always play a Word Bearer bike army that summoned Daemons off of bikes in the opponent's zone and there was little you could do about it. lol

[Komrk]

Yeah, best way to describe a daemon blowing up the bridge (unless I'm remembering wrong that's what happened. The signal cut out and then daemon goes all boomy in the bridge)

[Prot]

I was kind of hoping for a showdown between Roboute and Logar.... it never really happened. I liked how Guilliman changed his message from 'Hey let's get past this horrible mistake' to ' I hate your guts and I'm going to kick you in the eye of terror next time I see you'.... I thought it was building up to something, but never really happened....

 

I realize it would have been one of those battles where no one wins and maybe that's why avoided it... kind of like the other ones like the Lion vs Konrad, etc. etc. Still... it would have been cool.

[Saul Invictus]

Keep with the series, Guilliman and Lorgar have their fight eventually, and it is so worth it.

[blackoption]

Keep with the series, Guilliman and Lorgar have their fight eventually, and it is so worth it.

 

If only it wasn't interrupted by another unstable brother.

[Prot]

Keep with the series, Guilliman and Lorgar have their fight eventually, and it is so worth it.

 

wait a second... did I miss something?

 

I just finished Vengeful Spirit.... where did this showdown happen? What novel?

 

And don't tell my Konrad the nutjob breaks the fight up? (I'm just guessing here)

[Saul Invictus]

It's in Betrayer, Guilliman brawls with Lorgar and Angron. At the same time.

[Legatus]

- Is the knife wound to Guilliman 'the' fatal wound? It's not clear to me....

 

 

No, that wound is caused in a fight with Fulgrim, a hundred years after the Heresy. Unless Dan Abnett is going to write about it, in which case who knows what will happen...

 

 

- Love the reference to make sure you kill an Ultramarine or you'll regret it...

 

 

Petty and pointless. That is thug mentality, not one for professional soldiers. How are Ultramarines different from Imperial Fists or any other Legion when "being attacked" by someone?

 

 

 

As for the book, I utterly hated it.

 

The writing is neat and all. The scenery is pretty apocalyptic, and the brief exchanges between the Ultramarine and the Word Bearer in the beginning were tense since we all knew exactly what was about to happen. But I cannot get past how Dan Abnett completely changed the battle for Calth from how it had been described in the Word Bearers Index Astartes article and the Collected Visions artbook.

 

In the Collected Visions book, Lorgar is in command of the fleet attacking Calth. Their goal is the destruction of the Ultramarines. The Word Bearers fleet deals a massive blow to the Ultramarines fleet, and it is the Word Bearers fleet that bombards the sun to turn it toxic. The ground forces are hammered by millions of cultists and daemons, and forced into isolated pockets of resistance. In space, Guilliman manages to rally the remainder of the Ultramarine ships, and starts a series of counterattacks against the numerically superior Word Bearers fleet. Meanwhile he is managing to communicate with the isolated ground pockets, and they manage to put up more and more of a resistance, eventually being able to push back against the Word Bearer forces. The Ultramarines are able to triumph through their own sweat and blood, and through a series of battles on the ground and in space.

 

In the book, Lorgar isn't even there. The Goal of the Word Bearers really is to initiate the ruinstorm, which they accomplish, and to cripple the Ultramarines fleet, which they accomplish. Everything else was merely "nice to have". The Ultramarines fleet is crippled mainly by Calth's super defense grid, which is also responsible for poisoning Calth's sun. And instead of several hard fought battles against overwhelming forces on the ground and in space, the Ultramarines only have to stage two simultaneous attacks on the installations controlling the defense grid, which once obtained immediately drives off the Word Bearers forces. The Ultramarines are left with no real sense of achievement, having driven off the forces more incidentally thanks to the defense grid, rather than through traditional combat. The Word Bearers had not been led by their Primarch, and it had not been the majority of the Legion either, only the throwaway elements of the Legion. And their goal had not really been to destroy the Ultramarines. They had accomplished their actual strategic objectives.

 

Aside from removing any sense of accomplishment and grandeur from the conflict for the Ultramarines, Abnett also had Guilliman being slapped around by a Dark Apostle. The book could hardly have been any more disappointing,

 

 

This is the account of the battle from the Collected Visions book:

 

"Lorgar Strikes for Horus

 

As the Warmaster Horus launched his attack against the loyalist Space Marines on the planet of Istvaan III, he sent word to Lorgar of the Word Bearers. Now was the time to strike, he told the Chaos worshipping Primarch. Horus was aware of the bitter hatred that Lorgar had for Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines. He told Lorgar of the orders he had given to Guilliman. Lorgar quickly agreed to launch a surprise attack on the Ultramarines Legion while they were gathered at Ultramar. The loyalist Legion would be caught completely unaware and the Word Bearer's Primarch was sure he would be able to annihilate them.

 

Lorgar and Horus agreed that the Word Bearers were to continue to keep their alignment a secret from the Emperor. To this end, Lorgar ordered his trusted Lord Commander Sor Talgron to remain on station near the Solar System with forty companies and continue to feign loyalty to the Emperor. The rest of the Legion was ordered to Ultramar. The powers of the warp gave them sure and speedy passage across the restless Immaterium.

 

As his troops entered Ultramar space, Lorgar prepared his Legion. Command of the Calth Assault Force was given to Kor Phaeron, one of Lorgar's greatest champions, and a warrior who bore a deep hatred for the Ultramarines. Supporting him was Erebus, the former chaplain, and now the Chief Dsrk Apostle of the Word Bearers."

- The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 153

 

"The Battle of Calth

The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships, whilst his most trusted lieutenants were tasked with making the first strike against the planet of Calth.

 

From the battle barge Infidus Imperator, Lorgar's greatest champion, Kor Phaeron, launched a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Supporting him was the archfiend Erebus, foremost Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers.

 

Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads that were boiling away its surface and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers.

 

The Legion of the Word Bearers descended on Calth, Dark Apostle at the fore, bolters singing, accompanied by hordes of frenzied cultists. The Battle for Calth had begun...

 

Calth Besieged

 

The savagery of the Word Bearer's assault left the Ultramarines reeling. Their fleet was scattered and entire planets destroyed by Lorgar's warships. Tens of thousands of Word Bearers and their allies descended upon Calth to attack the loyal warriors of the Ultramarines Legion and destroy them in the name of Horus and the dark gods of Chaos.

 

Lorgar delegated leadership of he assault on Calth to his faithful champion, Kor Phaeron. This twisted warrior had over a hundred thousand Space Marines and many times more Chaos Cultists at his command. He also had aid from traitorous elements of the Mechanicum of Mars, who supplied him with a variety of giant war machines, including dozens of fearsome Titans.

 

The fighting on Calth was intense. At first, the savagery and decisiveness of the Word Bearers' assault threatened to overrun the Ultramarines defenders within a few hours. Kor Phaeron's troops massed into vast collumns and charged at the loyal Ultramarines forces. Having scattered the loyalists and pinned them in place, they then pounded them with artillery and orbital bombardments. The Ultramarines were on the defensive and had no choice but to dig in and fortify their positions.

 

Using vast hordes of Chaos Cultists as human shields, the Word Bearers were able to protect themselves from any significant Ultramarines counterattack. Kor Phaeron then deployed the war machines of the Dark Mechanicus as battering rams to punch through the defensive lines of the loyalists. Packs of screaming daemons followed up into any breaks in the lines, inflicting terrible cranage on the defenders within. As each Ultramarines position was breached, the Word Bearers themselves followed up with vicious assaults, killing every loyal Space Marine they could find. Leading these final deadly assaults were the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers. Chanting foul hymns to the dark gods they spurred on the traitor Space Marines, inciting them to dreadful acts of violence and atrocity.

 

However, Kor Phaeron underestimated the tenacity and resolve of the Ultramarines. As the hours passed the defenders began to slow and then halt the Word Bearers' assault. Eventually the Ultramarines were even able to organise some counterattacks against the traitors.

 

Captain Ventanus of the Ultramarines was defending the Palace of Leptius Numinus on Calth from the asssault of Dark Apostle Erebus's Word Bearers. When the traitors had launched their first wave of attacks, Ventanus and his troops had been preparing to board their transport ships at the nearby Numinus Spaceport. The attacks took the Ultramarines by complete surprise. The loyal Captain had lost over half of his Space Marines and had been forced to retreat to the palace.

 

Ventanus assessed the situation. His force now numbered less than five-hundred Space Marines and a few companies of the Calth 5th Infantry regiment of the Imperial Army. He had precious few tanks, maybe only a dozen or so Land Raiders, and no artillery. Against him was ranged a vast horde of human cultists, too many to accurately estimate their numbers, and a large group of Word Bearers, with dozens of giant war machines in their midst. Hundreds of strange, bat-winged creatures flew above the enemy ranks. The traitors had encircled the palace and were launching incessant attacks against Ventanus's defenders. The loyal Captain knew his troops could not repell the attacks indefinitely. Although strong in spirit and well armed, it was only a matter of hours before his position would be overrun and all of his troops slaughtered.

 

The loyalist captain established comm-links with other besieged Ultramarines. His situation was not unique. In fact all of the Ultramarines on Calth seemed to be in the same predicament. Of the fate of the Ultramarines Primarch, none knew. Ventanus realised that there was no possibility of support from any of the loyal forces left on Calth.

 

Across the corpse-strewn plain in front of the palace was Erebus, first and most powerful of all the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers. He roved back and forth among the traitor horde, bellowing orders at his motley troops, stopping here and there to chant yet another obscene warcry, urging his force onward, filling their souls with the dark passion born of the warp and the dark gods that rule it.

 

Erebus was ecstatic. This was the culmination of all his secret planning. The hated Guilliman's Ultramarines were being defeated! They were dying in droves. Finally the Word Bearers would get their revenge on the Emperor's lackeys. The time of Chaos was close.

 

But a message was received by Captain Ventanus: it was from Guilliman. The Primarch was alive! Not only alive but organising the embattled and besieged loyal forces.

 

'Ventanus, your situation is desperate and I can offer you little hope of immediate reinforcement. Many of my faithful officers and men are in similar dire straits. I have a plan that offers you the chance to serve me better than simply dying where you stand. Quickly organise your forces for a single concentrated assault against one point in the encircling lines. Your objective is to breakout and make for the Numinus Spaceport.'

 

'Sire, you would have us run like curs and quit the world of Calth?'

 

'Faithful captain, your goal is not to scurry away from this planet. I would have you launch as many of the transport ships as possible. You will need to assign brave pilots to each for they are to harass the enemy ground troops, distract them, for as long as possible.'

 

'With respect, my lord, these ships will not last long. They are weakly armoured vessels and have few guns. I fear they will be easily brought down by our foes.'

 

'But they will secure you precious time. Time in which you can activate the Spaceport's defence lasers. In their bloodlust and arrogance the traitors were more concerned with killing our brethren than with disabling out cannons. The defense lasers of Numinus offer us a chance to win back the initiative. Do this thing for me, Ventanus, and your name will be honoured by the Ultramarines for eternity.'

 

'Yes, my lord!'

 

Roboute Guilliman

 

Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, was on the bridge of the Macragge's Honour when the Word Bearers struck. The attack was unexpected and the shock of it total. Guilliman's battle barge shook as thunderous explosions ripped through its mid and aft sections. Klaxons blared as the mighty ship listed and turned slowly in space. Around it, Ultramarines' ships exploded like small suns as torpedoes fired from the Word Bearers' strike craft pounded them. Below, the world of Calth rippled as gigantic plasma-quakes boiled up through the atmosphere.

 

Guilliman immediately began shouting orders into his vox-coder.

 

'Fleet disperse. Fleet disperse. Evasive action gamma-three-seven. Ship-master Helvatius, give me a damage report. Sensorum, I need to know fleet status immediately. Master Gage, what's happening planetside?'

 

Within minutes, the Primarch had established the scale of the attacks upon both his fleet and the planet below. The battle barge limped away from its attackers, and was badly damaged. Its weapon systems were non-operational and it could only manage half speed from the non-warp engines. The fleet had been savaged by the surprise assault. Fully three-quarters of the Ultramarines warships and transports had been crippled and destroyed, the rest scattered across the Calth system as they evaded their attackers. Reports from the planet surface were even more depressing. The Word Bearers' orbital bombardment had been devastating. Tens-of-thousands of casualties had been inflicted on the ground troops, and many key stringholds destroyed.

 

Aboard the crippled battle barge, Roboute Guilliman had already realised that he had been the victim of a deadly trap set for him by the Warmaster Horus. It was the Warmaster who had ordered him to Veridan, and it was only Horus who Guilliman had told of his plans to muster the Ultramarines fleet at Calth.

 

That it was the Word Bearers Legion of Lorgar that had perpetrated the cowardly attack was also a surprise to Guilliman. Although he had never liked Lorgar he had never given him any reason to doubt his loyalty to the Emperor, in fact, it was because of Lorgar's extreme religious adoration of the Emperor that Guilliman had found him unsettling and distasteful. The fact that two of his fellow Primarchs had conspired together against him filled Guilliman with deep unease. It was possible, he thought, that this was not an isolated act of treachery. The inability to send or receive any astro-telepathic communiques heightened the Primarch's disquiet.

 

However, Guilliman's first priority was to stabilise the Ultramarines' situation. It was very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihilation.

 

Guilliman began to organise a series of his and run counterattacks with the few ships able to operate. This was only possible because of the extraordinary discipline and training of the Ultramarines commanders and crews. The enemy fleet was over-confident and lacked cohesion. Time and time again the Word Bearers battleships were isolated and destroyed. After each attack, the loyal ships scattered and regrouped far from the traitor fleet. Even so, the loyalists faced a foe that outnumbered and outgunned them. Any losses weighed heavily against the Ultramarines whilst the traitors appeared to have an endless supply of fresh vessels. But Roboute would not surrender, the traitors would pay in blood for their cowardly aggression.

 

Even as he directed his crippled fleet, Guilliman was also sending orders planetside to his beleagured troops on the ground. The traitors had not counted on two things. The first was the unbreakable fighting spirit and tenacity of the Ultramarines, who simply refised to give in to their desparate situation. After the initial wave of attacks, the loyal Space Marines were now dug into strongly defended positions, and from these they could not be dislodged. The second factor overlooked by Lorgar's forces was the brilliance of Guilliman's command. Each and every pocket of resistance had been assessed with lightning speed and a plan formulated to increase the success of the defence against the traitors. Clear, concise orders were being broadcast to the defenders and the Ultramarines began to fight back."

- The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 162-164

 

 

Dan Abnett removes all of that. Gone are the hordes of daemons swarming over the defenders at Calth. Gone are the space battles. Gone are all of the pockets of resistance that have dug in all over Calth. Well, I think those did get mentioned in one line at some point. Lorgar is no longer leading the attack against Calth from his flagship. This is no longer the attempt by the Word Bearers Legion to annihilate the Ultramarines. This is now just a small portion of expendable Word Bearers, whose objective it is to perform a ritual and to cripple the Ultramarines fleet. In the account above it was thanks to "Guilliman's brilliant command" that the battle for Calth could be turned around, as he directed a series of engagements in space and on the ground. In the book, the entire conflict is ended with a single operation. After the initial spectacular set piece of wreckage and debris raining down on Calth, the remainder of the "battle for Calth" is reduced from an epic global conflict to a few skirmishes and one single critical operation. Throughout the book there is no sense of the "unbreakable fighting spirit and tenacity" of the Ultramarines which allowed them to persist. After reeling from the initial blow and a few scenes of retreating Ultramarines, we get the aforementioned operation and the "battle for Calth" is over. It could have played out exactly like this no matter which Legion woudl have been attacked. The Ultramarines were not able to beat back a foe hell bent on annihilating them. They merely managed to survive a heavy attack and then managed to scare the enemy off with their defense grid, after the Word Bearers had already accomplished what they had come for in the first place.

 

This had been the first Horus Heresy novel I had bought, and it was extremely disappointing. This was a glaring example of how the Black Library Horus Heresy series is not "a detailed novel treatment of the classic Warhammer 40.000 lore", but an arbitrary rewrite that is only marginally based on the 40K lore.

[Prot]

It's in Betrayer, Guilliman brawls with Lorgar and Angron. At the same time.

Thanks!

I totally forgot that scene.... I read Betrayer far earlier, I think when it came out. I do recall that scene but it's worth a re-read. You know us 'Ultra-thugs'; you better kill us or we'll get ya. War is rather thugish in nature though... isn't it? We can always have tea afterwards.

I do recall the scene being fairly short, but I read these things in spurts so I'm not even sure of the order of events anymore. Thanks for the reference though.

[Wade Garrett]

It's in Betrayer, Guilliman brawls with Lorgar and Angron. At the same time.

No he doesn't.

[Seahawk]

Denialist?

[Wade Garrett]

Denialist?

Person who actually read the book being discussed. Pleased to meet you!

[Saul Invictus]

 

Denialist?

Person who actually read the book being discussed. Pleased to meet you!

It's a long time since I read the book, I'll give you that, but I remember it as Guilliman being pretty evenly matched with Lorgar, then having to withdraw once Angron gets involved and turns the tide. Not fighting them both at exactly the same time, but pretty much.

[Legatus]

Someone else quoted this in the other thread this came up. Though I think that one was deleted for being off topic. It is from a World Eater dreadnought observing the fight. From Chapter 22.

 

"When the fighting allowed it, Lhorke would turn his attention to the primarchs, seeing their furious three-way battle playing out atop a mound of the dead. Even there, Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them, until Lorgar ceased his attack and started his achingly resonant chant."

[BrainFireBob]

Pretty firmly disagree with Legatus, who has a serious vibe of reading it through a tinted lens, no offense.

 

Abnett did something experimental with this one. I thought it was interesting to tell the story via vignettes that showed the Ultramarine legion character, vs. focusing on a narrative perspective. The dispassionate view of everytihng in terms of theoreticals/practicals, the whole "kill an Ultramarine"- I rather received as a dispassionate message, not some grand glorious boast. If they were mere toughs, they would brag and boast- instead, they are very clear: They will keep coming until one of you is dead. Nothing personal about it. There are no grand passions, no deep and overarching sense of destiny- they are Ultramarines. They keep coming until they win, or it ends. They don't even need their Primarch for that. It is the character of the Legion to do so.

 

We start with Ventanus's bunch restoring communications, and finding pockets of Ultramarines all over Calth in constant contact with the Word Bearers, unable to coordinate their forces, fighting, fallnig back, fighting. The penultimate moment of the book isn't the reactivation of the satellite system, it's when every Ultramarine that could reach the site in time- whether in companies or squads or just individual Marines- who have been fighting non-stop without re-supply or relief across the surface of one of their worlds, converge together and immediately launch a coordinated, focused assault without needing to coordinate, every Ultramarine taking his place in line without fanfare. It's a statement of their character- boring, bland, uninspiring, but utterly relentless without feeling about it, a maintained sidearm waiting to be used without any care but that its own functions are correct.

 

What I rather enjoyed about it was that it gave a reason for the legions that hate them to hate them- whenever the Ultramarines triumph, it is no big deal, they were just doing their job. When they fail, no big deal, they were doing their job, and now they need to do it again with more Ultramarines. To the insecure, this reeks of arrogance- disregarding praise, not being apologetic or ashamed or failure? It's because the Ultramarines don't give a damn. They just do. So if you fight an Ultramarine, you'd better kill him, because he's as committed as a drawn bow, and it will never occur to him to stop trying to win. A Fist? He'll stand strong despite the odds, stubbornly refusing to give in. A Wolf? He'll trust in his own deadliness to carry the day. An Ultramarine? He's constantly recalculating his paths to victory, changing on a dime if conditions change, but never losing sight of his goal to win. Odds determine the most likely (and therefore preferable) plan, they have no moral or emotional force.

 

I rather found them boring before this. Now they're interesting, but yes, the individual marines are boring. Not a direction I expected.

[Legatus]

Pretty firmly disagree with Legatus, who has a serious vibe of reading it through a tinted lens, no offense.

 

 

Uh, yes, the lens of "I knew that the battle was originally completely different". People who did not know anything about the Battle for Calth before reading the book will obviously receive it very differently.

 

 

the whole "kill an Ultramarine"- I rather received as a dispassionate message, not some grand glorious boast. If they were mere toughs, they would brag and boast- instead, they are very clear: They will keep coming until one of you is dead. Nothing personal about it. There are no grand passions, no deep and overarching sense of destiny- they are Ultramarines. They keep coming until they win, or it ends. They don't even need their Primarch for that. It is the character of the Legion to do so.

 

 

So that is totally not what the Imperial Fists would do, or the Space Wolves, or the Lunar Wolves, or the Salamanders, or the Blood Angels. You can give them a bloody nose but leave them alive. They will respect the strength of their opponent and will leave him alone. Not the Ultramarines, though.

[BrainFireBob]

Legatus, I go back to the 90s and own all those other sources from when they xame out- I repeat, you are just upset it's not what you wanted.

 

And you didn't read what I wrote, if that is what you got out. An IF would fight on to defy the odds- an Ultramarine doesn't notice the odds, he's too task-focused. They are almost autistically focused on their goals. It's a mindset, and quite a novel take I must say I was surprised by.

 

It is a question first of perspective, then of approach. You ever read Sword of Truth? Temple of the Winds, Richard to Drefan: "I know one thing you don't, I know I am going to kill you." He did not know how, just that, because he would pay any price to do it, because there was the task, and then his agency of the task, and then after other stuff might exist.

[Prot]

I have the read the old fluff bible. I've read nearly everything I can get my hands on from this game since I started playing in the late 90's.

 

Of course the story has changed... and I'm glad it has. I'm thankful for it because if it was completely and utterly static since then there would be no where to go. The premise of the story being told by different views, and different truths is good enough for me to keep the fiction alive.... and at least a -tiny- bit dynamic.

 

I know how the story is supposed to go. I think it's safe to say 90% of us do. Personally I welcome the changes that this book brought about.
 

 

What I rather enjoyed about it was that it gave a reason for the legions that hate them to hate them- whenever the Ultramarines triumph, it is no big deal, they were just doing their job. When they fail, no big deal, they were doing their job, and now they need to do it again with more Ultramarines. To the insecure, this reeks of arrogance- disregarding praise, not being apologetic or ashamed or failure? It's because the Ultramarines don't give a damn. They just do. So if you fight an Ultramarine, you'd better kill him, because he's as committed as a drawn bow, and it will never occur to him to stop trying to win. A Fist? He'll stand strong despite the odds, stubbornly refusing to give in. A Wolf? He'll trust in his own deadliness to carry the day. An Ultramarine? He's constantly recalculating his paths to victory, changing on a dime if conditions change, but never losing sight of his goal to win. Odds determine the most likely (and therefore preferable) plan, they have no moral or emotional force.

 

I rather found them boring before this. Now they're interesting, but yes, the individual marines are boring. Not a direction I expected.

 

I love this and completely agree. It's pretty much how I felt reading it... and 're-discovering' Ultramarines.

 

To be 100% honest until the Horus Heresy I found the Ultramarines incredibly boring and never could understand why anyone would want to play them aside from the utterly boring fact that they are the 'good guys'.

 

Chaos has so much more personality. The other loyalist legions had so much more character and interesting traits. Ultramarines were just the imperial boyscouts until Abnett starting writing them.

 

The reason I'm out of sequence with the Horus Heresy is because I admit I skipped the Ultra books. Yup, I was so sure I'd be so friggin' bored reading these books I wanted to skip them all together... every single drop of Ultra fiction.

 

Why I play Ultra is a long story but the fiction didn't grow on me until Abnett's stuff, and I do confess to enjoying Nick Kyme's Ultra's (shoot me if you have to, but I like what I like.)

 

Until then Ultra stood for ultra-boring with very little personality. While other chapters had true identity and very charismatic Primarchs, the Ultra's seemed impossibly... robotic, right down to their boring, blonde, Primarch.

 

Presently I feel at this point while the Legion has become much more interesting, and charismatic, the Primarch is still not ringing true with me on a personal level. But I personally find most of the books seem to suffer from somewhat idiotic Primarchs who seem to possess incredibly smart, and capable first Captains. I don't think Roboute came off as incapable in this one, but he still just comes across as a guy who wanted to start an empire to impress his dad, and live his dreams with him. There isn't much else going on there for me.

 

In fact I was surprised when Roboute actually lost his temper on his brother after it finally sunk in that there was no theoretical that supported an 'accident' over Calth. I can't think of another Primarch who would have been as docile over the incident and not went for Logar's jugular. But this is a relatively new nemesis situation so there's time.

 

Otherwise I think Bob has it right on and I feel like there is some real depth there for once (for the Legion as a whole). They're not just the guys in blue with all the planets and resources anymore.

[Helias_Tancred]

I was kind of hoping for a showdown between Roboute and Logar.... it never really happened. I liked how Guilliman changed his message from 'Hey let's get past this horrible mistake' to ' I hate your guts and I'm going to kick you in the eye of terror next time I see you'.... I thought it was building up to something, but never really happened....

 

I realize it would have been one of those battles where no one wins and maybe that's why avoided it... kind of like the other ones like the Lion vs Konrad, etc. etc. Still... it would have been cool.

 

Impressive in one on one combat is one of the last things Lorgar was (when compared to his brother primarchs). Knowing Roboute Guilliman's martial prowess, without question he would have slain Lorgar. I know I'm making a ballsy statement but the fluff backs me up.

[Prot]

I agree especially if you read the early HH stuff... but I think some will say he's godlike now.

 

I think Dan wrote something really interesting about Leman Russ though (in his battle against Magnus). It's like the faith of the Emperor was almost a shield against the poop of the warp. I'd like to think a similar mechanism would protect Roboute.

[blackoption]

 

I was kind of hoping for a showdown between Roboute and Logar.... it never really happened. I liked how Guilliman changed his message from 'Hey let's get past this horrible mistake' to ' I hate your guts and I'm going to kick you in the eye of terror next time I see you'.... I thought it was building up to something, but never really happened....

 

I realize it would have been one of those battles where no one wins and maybe that's why avoided it... kind of like the other ones like the Lion vs Konrad, etc. etc. Still... it would have been cool.

 

Impressive in one on one combat is one of the last things Lorgar was (when compared to his brother primarchs). Knowing Roboute Guilliman's martial prowess, without question he would have slain Lorgar. I know I'm making a ballsy statement but the fluff backs me up.

 

 

Tiberius: Few here would consider that a 'ballsy' statement. Most members of this board acknowledge Guilliman's capabilities (and Lorgar's lack there of).

[Prot]

I assume going forward with the HH series that the stories are not going to be identical to the old ones, and I'm fine with that.

 

I was more going in the direction of really enjoying the Ultra's identity development thanks to this novel. As I probably overstated, I really didn't find much to dislike or like about them... they were simply an iconic representation of what a 'space marine' is supposed to be, but nothing more.

 

If anything I hoped for more understanding of the Primarch but I find Dan likes to tell the story from a worm's eye view a lot of the time. We got to see more of Roboute in Unremembered Empire which I also enjoyed. (I always think the camaraderie he showed to his fellow sons almost set him up for his death.)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I loved the book.  Best part was the Dreadnought falling from orbit.  Best Calth story so far though for me comes in Honor to the Dead.