Never used units

[Chaeron]

I would struggle to buy a Forgeworld model and not find a way to make the most out of my investment, but truthfully I've not even built my Breacher squad yet so that gets the nod.

[Excessus]

 

I never really forget them, but these are all pretty much never considered:

 

Recon Marines - Price too high, no durability increase over tacticals

Seekers - Similar problem to Recons, high per-body price and not any tougher than tacticals

Dreadnoughts - Overpriced, overshadowed by Contemptors

Assault Marines - Can't compete with Tac Marine value

Techmarines - Don't really fill any role, compete for valuable elites slot

Quad HB Rapiers - Heavy Bolters are bad

Death Storm - Competes for heavy support slot, expensive throw-away unit once you've put on the krak and Drop Pod Assault upgrades.

Kharybdis - Expensive.  For a few points more, you could have a Spartan.

Breachers - Can't compete with Tac Marine value

Tarantulas - Always seems like you can get these weapons cheaper elsewhere, and with better BS and no firing mode rules.

Javelins/Landspeeders - Sicarans exist.

Achilles - Why take it when you could have an Achilles Alpha?

Vindicator - No squadron.  Would rather take Medusas.

Standard WW - bad.  maybe if you want to take 3 of them with hyperios air defence launchers, could justify it, but there are better anti-air options.

I dunno seeker squads with combi plasmas can own terminators.

 

Also, they are versatile. I'm using them as a swiss army knife with all their ammo types. Low on anti-tank, take combi-melta, low on anti-termie, take combi-plasma. They have their rending/shred shot at 24" too to take pot shots at units with. Does the enemy have a tightly packed unit close to you, rapid fire those small blasts...tooons of hits, hehe

 

Also, Alpha legion can give them banestrike ammo and poison spheres, with a power dagger/fist+artifice on the sergeant making them a nice assaulty unit, hehe

 

They can also take an apothecary...

[Moonstalker]

 

 

Stuff about seekers

 

My usual assumption is that death comes easily in 30k.  T4 3+ isn't tough, it's the lowest common denominator.  Sure, we've got SA and some Mechanicum units that are weaker, but the most common thing in 30k is going to be the marine.  Everyone is going to be thinking of ways to kill them efficiently, and there are more than enough options for accomplishing that.

 

If you take marines you must expect them to die.

 

For that reason, I cannot stomach spending 35 points per model on Seekers with combiweapons.  Their potential for damage output is high, but their survivability isn't.

[Excessus]

You don't take combis on all of them though, let the cheaper ones die first. And even though a marine dies easily in 30k, it's all about target saturation.

 

[Edit]: besides, you pay a premium for the unit at the start, extras only cost 15p. 

[Moonstalker]

That 35 per dude was the average cost after adding 5 guys at the cheaper price and then giving all of them combiweapons.  So the additional per-guy discount was included.

 

(base price + 5*additional guy price + 10*combiweapon price)/10 = 35 per guy

 

Not outfitting all of them with combiweapons would reduce that, yes, but then... honestly, the special ammo is kinda naff.  If we had Vengeance rounds like in 40k, I could definitely get behind them, but is +1 BS, Preferred Enemy against one unit, some so-so special ammo, and losing scoring + Fury of the Legion worth the 12.5 point per guy premium over tactical marines?  I don't like getting gouged for 10 points per combiweapon, but that's pretty much the going rate in the Heresy, and that's what you really need to be effective with Seekers.

 

And don't even get started with Banestrike rounds for AL/SoH.  At best, they're a sidegrade.  Losing Rending and Shred for Rapid Fire and AP3 on 6's isn't trading up, it's gaining a little mobility and like 25% more effectiveness against 3+ in exchange for all of your effectiveness against high toughness and 2+.

 

Overall, I would rather have Terminators with combiweapons.  They can still die, for sure, but they've got some kind of survivability edge over Seekers for the additional points that you pay for them, along with some melee.  Combiweapons for them are also cheaper.  If you just want something for an impressive plasma barrage... why not a squad of 10 heavy weapons marines with plasma cannons?  Only 35 points more expensive than a seeker squad with combiplasmas, and they can fire their plasma every turn, not just once.  Edit: Or Tactical Supports with Plasmaguns.  10 of them is 25 points cheaper than 10 seekers with combiweapons, and they can also fire their plasma every turn.  And they're scoring.

[Excessus]

I pay 320 points for the 10 guy squad I run incl. 4 combi-weapons, artifice armour and pfist/dagger. That's a medium of 32 points per guy including the very upgraded sergeant.

 

They loose fury of the legion, yes, but they are still scoring (read the FAQ), and while the banestrike ammo is a sidegrade, it's still an option depending on how you run them.

 

Not all my opponents run with marines either, mechanicum forces are nice targets for the blast type ammo and the ap4 one (whatever the names are, I forget).

[Moonstalker]

A good point on the FAQ, I had missed that it added Implacable Advance to them.

 

Overall, though, I just can't bring myself to field marines that expensive.  An expensive squad, sure, it's the Heresy.  Dropping 250+ points on a squad is normal.  But if I am spending 250+ points on a squad, it needs to have some kind of built-in durability, whether it's through improved armor/invuls, numbers, toughness, etc.  I just don't think you can afford to pay 30+ points for a T4 W1 3+ body unless you've got some guaranteed way to get value out of it in <1 turn.  Cause that kind of high value low durability unit has a giant target painted on it.

[Emperor's Furor]

I can't decide on the banestrike ammo, I'm planning on taking a squad with combi plasmas (afaik preferred enemy helps mitigate overheats) in a rhino so they can move about to support my Solar Auxilia I'm allying them with, I guess banestrikes seem the logical choice but the rending and shred ammo seems better to me.

[PastelAvenger]

 

p.s. Lightnings are one of the only things that can kill a Spartan dead on the turn it arrives. And javelins are really really good. Just saying. :)

 

 

Definitely shouldn't forget or overlook Lightnings.  They're an incredibly versatile aircraft in the second-least contested FOC slot.  4 Kraken missiles on the turn it comes in into any tank is going to be a really bad day for the tank.

 

I don't buy Javelins being "really really good" though.  Predator costs the same and has more armor and HP, and for a few more points will outgun the Javelin consistently with 2 LC and a heavy 4 autocannon.  On top of which, the Predator isn't immediately food for any Sicaran that it comes across - thin-skinned speeders are.  Just with how good and how popular Sicarans are, they lower the value of landspeeders and Javelins because of how hard they counter them.

A Javelin can reliably hit the rear armour of any tank dropping 2 Krak 2 hunterkiller and a Multi Melta shot. 2 of these should be able to destroy a Sicaran before it can react.

[Moonstalker]

p.s. Lightnings are one of the only things that can kill a Spartan dead on the turn it arrives. And javelins are really really good. Just saying.

Definitely shouldn't forget or overlook Lightnings. They're an incredibly versatile aircraft in the second-least contested FOC slot. 4 Kraken missiles on the turn it comes in into any tank is going to be a really bad day for the tank.

I don't buy Javelins being "really really good" though. Predator costs the same and has more armor and HP, and for a few more points will outgun the Javelin consistently with 2 LC and a heavy 4 autocannon. On top of which, the Predator isn't immediately food for any Sicaran that it comes across - thin-skinned speeders are. Just with how good and how popular Sicarans are, they lower the value of landspeeders and Javelins because of how hard they counter them.

A Javelin can reliably hit the rear armour of any tank dropping 2 Krak 2 hunterkiller and a Multi Melta shot. 2 of these should be able to destroy a Sicaran before it can react.

That assertion seems quite silly.

Now, the CML + 2 HK build is probably the best loadout. I can agree on that much. It has a good alpha strike, it focuses the unit's purpose. I can't quite agree on the addition of the multimelta - if you had the points free and no where else to put them, sure.

To address the first bit, I'd like to bring up the three most common tanks. Spartans are 14 all around and are going to shrug off anything the Javelin does. Sicarans are 13/12/12, getting shot in the rear is no different than side. Predators are 13/11/10, they like to run around in groups and hide their rear armor against table edges. With smart deployment, a squadron of Predators can actually present AV13 on three facings and completely hide the fourth facing entirely. They don't want to move up the table where they will be more vulnerable, or move at all and degrade their shooting. So, the tanks where you might get rear armor on them as they move around the table (Spartan and Sicaran) really don't give a damn if you get rear armor on them.

The next is that you can use the multimelta shot effectively on the turn that you come in. Presumably, you've exchanged lists with your opponent before the battle, and they know what you're fielding. If you want to deliver that alpha strike, you can only move 6 inches on the turn you come in from your outflank (assuming you outflanked - if you are trying to deepstrike with them to get these shots against an army that has cheap access to interceptor fire against deep strikers, then you are beyond my help). The maximum threat range for the MM, then, is 30 inches, leaving a 12 inch dead zone in the middle of the table where your MM can't actually reach on the turn your Javelin comes on (it's actually slightly bigger than that, since the MM is not at the very tip of the Javelin). That feeds into my first comment, that I don't think the MM is worth it.

Similarly, if your opponent chooses a denied flank deployment, you're then left with a 66% chance that you actually come in within the 54 inch threat range of the missiles. 33% chance of entering on the wrong board edge, and if you do come in on the right board edge, it's quite likely that you will end up with front armor shots only.

So, I don't buy that this tactic is reliable. There are several options where your opponent can actively play around it. This doesn't even take into account further metagaming through terrain placement or using tactical squads as blockers to limit where you can bring your outflankers in, or other shenanigans.

Will two of them take out a Sicaran on the turn they come in? If everything goes well, on mathematical averages, yes. With the multimeltas, assuming they're in range to use them, it's enough damage to take it out. Without the multimeltas, it survives 33% of the time with one hull point remaining. Start mixing in some battlefield conditions - firing through intervening models, 25% cover for the sicaran, interceptor fire from Mortis dreads, etc - and things become much less certain.

One last point is that you don't want these two to be in a squadron. Being so fragile, they're much better off as singletons so that overkill on one doesn't carry on to the other. This means that you then have to think about further investment in things to increase the reliability of your reserve rolls (comms relay) or use the EC RoW or similar.

If your regular opponents favor artillery squadrons then I think the value of Javelins might go up - getting side armor on a Medusa is incredibly sweet, and the 4-krak alpha strike is the perfect weapon for countering that. But as a counter for Sicarans? Not so much.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Banestrike Ammo sucks. Its only benefit over the Rending special ammo for seekers is that it's move and fire - but that 9" rapid fire range makes your previous 24" heavy 1 now limited to 15" (including the move).

 

The problem with that, is that despite its ability to support a fast moving units, you basically have to keep moving, especially on units which FORCE you to swap. For the cost to upgrade you lose too much. IMHO, a Terminator Squad is the only way to use it. Seekers have Rending at Stand off range, Vets have Sniper which both hit at 20-24" effective range, which are already free (seekers losing ap2 rending for ap3 notrending? Right) are obviously better. Terminators are the better option to use it on because they have no alternative equivalent option and still work with combi weapons, and Relentless gives them 15-24" range as well as the survivavility to use it with.

 

To make it worth it though, the Banestrike needs to make its points back - 2 Tactical Marines killed by Banestrike. On a 10 man Terminator Squad with 2 shots, this is 10/20 shots 6-7/13-14 hits, and hence 1/2 marines killed per round of shooting. The problem with that is the Transports exist, Feel No Pain exists, Cover exists, and that those added upgrades come to about 1/4th of what a Predator costs which can be more valuable (or any other similar unit).

 

The other option is seekers podding in and hence unable to fire heavy - but if you are doing that, might as well save points elsehwere and get combi weapons.

 

In short, I find Banestrike sucks and when in a legion era gameplay, the requirement to cope with MEQs means that ultimately the Banestrike is superfluous to requirements, costs too much to be a fun little niche 'powerboost' option for certain armies (at least Sons of Horus need a boost, come on!), and aren't powerful enough for it to allow wholesale replacement of the usual counter MEQ options for list variety (what would be better for you - 1 Terminator Squad, or 9 units with Banestrike?)

[PastelAvenger]

After reading your post fully (twice) you raise some good points, the battlefield conditions do have to be right for it to work you are correct but that could be said for any tactic. Sicaran's are quite simply the best tank in the game but with AV12 they aren't nearly as unkillable as you suggest.

 

I would also like to point out that I never mentioned that they were effective against a Spartan .

 

Further more if you're not deep striking Javelins then something is wrong from the start.

[Hesh Kadesh]

They're cheaper than the cost of a Tactical Squad, and bring a much larger threat portfolio and coverage. A sicaran forces you to make Tactical decisions with a variety of units - Jetbikes, Speeders and non Zooming Flyers all being a threat.

 

While I don't polay with speeders your comment about deep strike or bust - let me introduce you to the Augury Scanner, a cheap upgrade for any self respecting defensive infantry unit. Admittedly, AV11 saves it much incoming damage provided you don't show your backside to a Full Tac Squad. 2HP's is nothing to wax lyrical about

[Emperor's Furor]

Don't forget Banestrike ammo is free for Seekers to switch to. My seekers are going to be armed with combi plasma, so losing the rend isn't as much of a deal since if I do come up against Terminators I can move into rapid fire position and just blitz them with the plasma without needing to roll 6s, however the ability to move and have ap 3 shots is pretty useful for fighting and advancing to take secondary objects where as sitting still and hoping you rend is a little to restrictive.

 

My plan is a group of seekers with combi plasmas and a apothecary in a rhino with perhaps a character, with the aim of seeking out high priority targets like terminator squads, castellax and other high armour/toughness targets before moving on to fighting secondary objectives which will mainly be marine squads etc.

[Moonstalker]

After reading your post fully (twice) you raise some good points, the battlefield conditions do have to be right for it to work you are correct but that could be said for any tactic. sicaran's are quite simply the best tank in the game but with AV12 they aren't nearly as unkillable as you suggest.

 

I would also like to pint out that I never mentioned that they were effective against a Spartan .

 

Further more if you're not deep striking Javelins then something is wrong from the start.

 

I just wanted to point out how narrow the battlefield conditions must be for you to get that perfect alpha strike off.  Your assertion that it was something you could do reliably just wasn't right.  It's a risky gamble.

 

And I can certainly agree that Sicarans aren't unkillable.  They're the mobile, hard-hitting battle tank that I've been wanting for marines for years... and I'm still using Predators.  They're just so durable and cheap, it's hard to say no.  And the Deimos kits look too good to turn down.  Those soviet dome turrets, y'know.

 

And of course.  I only wanted to hit on kind of the most popular tanks that you might want to target for annihilation.  Just a sort of... I wanted to hit on the three tank roles you might be looking at as an example of where you would find them on the field.  The tanks that have really squishy aspects (Predators) are going to hang back so you can't get an angle on their squishy bits.  The Sicarans are mobile and armored all around, so side or rear is irrelevant.  The tanks that are actually going to move up the field aggressively where a rear-armor shot would actually be assured (Spartans, Land Raiders) are so well armored that it doesn't matter where you shoot them, you won't do more than scratch them.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Don't forget Banestrike ammo is free for Seekers to switch to.

Losing AP2 Rending and 6" range for AP3 "rending" is not free.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

Don't forget Banestrike ammo is free for Seekers to switch to.

Losing AP2 Rending and 6" range for AP3 "rending" is not free.

 

I was referring to points, other units have to buy the banestrike afaik. I edited my previous post to point out, that with combi plasma the lose of rending isn't that great, especially when you have to stand still to fire the rending shots and that makes the unit reactive rather than proactive in seeking out their targets

[Hesh Kadesh]

Not really. Move and Fire Banestrike is collectively shorter ranged than Scorpius rounds.

 

Relying on heavy 1 rending 24" to kill 3+ saves is daft, but at least it has that bonus of range without stepping into 4 shot Fury of the Legion range.

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah but you wouldn't put them in that range without support though that ain't a direct line attack unit, you'd use them to bolster your front line troops, they are a fast attack unit after all.

[Raktra]

On that note, why the buggering hell are they fast attack?

[Nusquam]

My Seekers always get me first blood and usually make most of their points, more if you include Victory Points. Then again Drop Podding them in with Decapitation Strike has major advantages.

 

That said there's too much thinking in a vacuum going on in here. Sure things can take Augery Scanners but they're not always going to be in an advantageous position, your deepstriking units won't always be in a disadvantageous position either. Just because a counter exists in a game doesn't mean it will always be applicable. You as a player can mitigate this through planning. Meltaguns exist but you don't see people giving up on rhinos. Same premise exists with Scanners. Stay out of their threat range, or if you can't you can put them in a position to mitigate their effectiveness. Keep the AV11 to the bolters, or drop behind a ruin etc.

 

But even with that said this games mechanics still make it harder for some units than others. Rather than putting some units to the blade in this thread why don't we discuss ways of making less popular units work? Not in a tournament capacity but in a more casual and fun capacity. Not all unit is created equal and each legion affects them differently but why not explore that? If a unit still doesn't come up to muster why not offer suggestions on how you might improve it?

[PastelAvenger]

I think a definitive list of under performing units would be needed and then for people to play test them in different scenarios for this to work.

[Nusquam]

A good unit to start with: Assault Marines.

 

I would like to take them but they're just plain expensive. And with Dark Furies in a RG list it's hard to justify them. I don't think there's anything wrong with their equipment and options, just their initial cost. Perhaps costing 200-225 initially would at least edge them towards at least considerable.

[Slips]

Maybe them being 250 for 10 was a way to tell us that, while yes, we can run larger squads for larger games, you're probably better off with 10 marines and gearing them up.

 

...Doesn't help make them any more of an attractive option besides uber-themed lists but, it might be the train of thought that led to their cost.

 

25 points for a Despoiler + 12" move doesnt seem all that worth it to me.

[Moonstalker]

In 40k, Assault Squads pay 3 points per model over tacticals to:

1. Gain jump infantry

2. Trade bolter for CCW

3. Lose Obj Sec

 

In 30k, Assault Squads (figuring 20 man squad for max discount) pay 7.5 points per model over tacticals to:

1. Gain jump infantry

2. Trade bolter for CCW

3. Lose Fury of the Legion

 

Bolter for CCW is an even trade, so it has no bearing on our point costs guestimations.  The mobility in 30k is more valuable than it is in 40k, so we should figure on actually paying more for it when all is said and done.  Losing Fury of the Legion is actually a pretty big deal, though.  A good shooting phase with two squads cracking out Fury of the Legion can be game winning.  So IMO, they need a special rule to make up for it.  I think Stubborn is the best choice - lacking the ability to take Vexillas, they need something to make them stickier in melee.  What good is a melee squad that runs away from melee?

 

I think cutting 2.5 points per model off the squad would be appropriate.  So our target price is 17.5 points per guy, or 350 total.  And I think that works out cleanly to a cost of 200 base and 15 per additional.  They now pay 5 points more than tacticals to gain jump infantry and trade fury of the legion for stubborn, and their bolter for a CCW.