Never used units

[Nusquam]

That's the kind of thinking I like to see.

 

To expand on stubborn: Perhaps "Assault of the Legion",  "Rage of the Legion" or something akin to that. A "once every other turn" type of rule. They gain stubborn, rage or something for a turn or don't shoot but get to reroll an assault charge die? Straight stubborn can come from the stand in rules for future legions.

[Raktra]

Re-roll ones to-hit on the charge?

[Nusquam]

That's good too.

 

Fury trades next turns shooting for this turns buff. Do we want to keep the AM equivalent simple as a slightly minor buff or make it more of a one turn trade off? Like declare Rage on the charge but -1A or WS the next turn as their initial burst left them open?

[Moonstalker]

I don't think it's entirely necessary to mirror Fury of the Legion like that.  And if you don't do something about their leadership/morale, then you are probably going to have to cut their points even more to make up for the fact that they now pretty much require a Chaplain consul to babysit them.  Not that putting a Chappy in the squad is a bad idea in the first place, but when it's mandatory to make up for the squad's continued shortcomings, it's a problem.  If you're going to set about rebalancing the squad, don't leave it half-done.  They're overpriced and their morale won't hold up like a tac or breacher squad's will.

[Nusquam]

I would argue that what they lack in the ability to re-roll morale they gain in offense and mobility. If they're doing the winning then it's not a problem. They aren't like terminators who assault the deadliest opponents. They are for going after objectives held by rank and file units or supplementing friendly termis and the like. If you're sending them into a losing battle then you're probably in a pinch. Shooting-wise there's a lot less pinning going around and with the points saved from this threads brainstorming more bodies/units to take the brunt. Tacs and breachers are also more of the "stand and hold type" of units so morale is more key for them. AMs keep moving and have higher evasion. Fury is also an activated offensive-type ability, Stubborn for AMs doesn't feel like the other-side of the coin as it's passive and defensive(both things not as fitting for a mobile strike unit).

 

It's not like I wouldn't mind better morale for them. That kind of thing is always great on any unit, but I don't think it makes them too worse off for not having the staying power of tacs or breachers as we still have those two units for that type of job.

[Moonstalker]

I suppose if we are talking about rebalancing all the underused units, then it might make sense to focus Assault Squads more on offense and save the more defensive traits (like stubborn) for Breachers, who could also use some love.

 

I think I like some kind of charge-distance enhancer in that case.  It seems least likely to interact with/step on the toes of any of the likely legion rules we might see, and keeps them true to purpose.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I suppose if we are talking about rebalancing all the underused units, then it might make sense to focus Assault Squads more on offense and save the more defensive traits (like stubborn) for Breachers, who could also use some love.

 

I think I like some kind of charge-distance enhancer in that case.  It seems least likely to interact with/step on the toes of any of the likely legion rules we might see, and keeps them true to purpose.

The weakness with Jump Packs is that they cannot be used more than once/turn, and that's core rules.

 

I'd rather Jump Packs allowed assaulting after running, because Walk+Shoot+Assault is allowed, while Walk+Run+Assault isn't despite having a rocket attached to your back? Even if it's limited to a Rite of War. 

[Slips]

 

I suppose if we are talking about rebalancing all the underused units, then it might make sense to focus Assault Squads more on offense and save the more defensive traits (like stubborn) for Breachers, who could also use some love.

 

I think I like some kind of charge-distance enhancer in that case.  It seems least likely to interact with/step on the toes of any of the likely legion rules we might see, and keeps them true to purpose.

The weakness with Jump Packs is that they cannot be used more than once/turn, and that's core rules.

 

I'd rather Jump Packs allowed assaulting after running, because Walk+Shoot+Assault is allowed, while Walk+Run+Assault isn't despite having a rocket attached to your back? Even if it's limited to a Rite of War. 

 

Honestly, that should have been added to Angels Wrath.

[Nusquam]

 

 

I suppose if we are talking about rebalancing all the underused units, then it might make sense to focus Assault Squads more on offense and save the more defensive traits (like stubborn) for Breachers, who could also use some love.

 

I think I like some kind of charge-distance enhancer in that case.  It seems least likely to interact with/step on the toes of any of the likely legion rules we might see, and keeps them true to purpose.

The weakness with Jump Packs is that they cannot be used more than once/turn, and that's core rules.

 

I'd rather Jump Packs allowed assaulting after running, because Walk+Shoot+Assault is allowed, while Walk+Run+Assault isn't despite having a rocket attached to your back? Even if it's limited to a Rite of War. 

 

Honestly, that should have been added to Angels Wrath.

 

 

That's good thinking keeping other units we're likely to discuss in mind as we move forward on the current one.

 

I wouldn't mind a movement enhancer either. The number of times a weapon can be fired can be a weakness and is part of the core rules too; and Fury let's you shoot twice. If AMs got a special ability that was in the same vein of the Tacs then it wouldn't surprise me if it did some sort of alteration that deviated from the core rules.

 

This games rules as far as moving/running/assaulting has always been weird to me. 5th edition made the most sense to me, more so when it came to fleet.

 

The basic RoWs are getting continually less appealing as newer Legion RoWs get better. They even started going back and improving legion RoWs.  I wouldn't be surprised if the basic ones got a revamp as well with such buffs.

 

So to recap: Base cost drop to 200, some sort of minor buff or activated ability akin to Fury for Tacs. Seems like a pretty solid direction to me.

[SillyDreadnought]

While they're not stellar, I've had some success with the ordinary Whirlwind, but with the caveat that they're only worth considering in sub-2000 point lists. For the minimal points you expend on a trio of Whirlywinds, you get some good splat-power that works in conjunction with Nuncio-Voxes. At higher points, bigger and batter splat-guns ( like the Bassie, Medusa or Scorpywind ) are obviously superior in every respect.

 

But, eh, in low points, the normal Whirlwind does ok enough for me to consider as an option.

 

 

Land Speeders though, I can think of some interesting ways to run them. Even in the face of Sicaran-spam. Mostly using Graviton Guns.

[Slips]

So, with FW clearing up the "Do breachers have defensive grenades" bit ie: we can throw them now too, have Breacher Squads gone from "More Expensive Tac Marines with Fringe Benefits" to Something Slightly more palatable in a non-ZM Game / IF RoW List?

[Caustic63]

Assault Squads should have their base price reduced, say about 20-30 points, but a potential reason why they are so expensive is because of how powerful sweeping advances are in 30K. Despoiler squads need transport to get where they want to be so if you use them you'll end up paying that tax anyway. I think that while Fury of the Legion tacticals are good value, a smaller Assault squad with Power Swords could easily beat them in combat and then wipe out the squad in a Sweeping advance.

 

In a game system that uses large squads without special rules to keep them together defeats can potentially be devastating. In one of my games Lord Commander Eidolon wiped out a whole Tactical squad on his own after killing 4 of them (including the sergeant), taking no damage in return, and then sweeping them after they failed their morale check twice (they needed 4s or lower).

[Emperor's Furor]

I think assault squads are a product of the current system in that it has so many disincentives compared to just shooting. When you consider assault marines trade range for some additional speed, should they really cost the amount they do? I remember when Blood Angels could turbo across the table and assault, that's no longer a issue, heck rhinos can only move 6", and disembark troop 6" but still not assault now. It's so easy to counter assault troops nowdays I don't see why on top of that assault troops cost so much.

[Nusquam]

So, with FW clearing up the "Do breachers have defensive grenades" bit ie: we can throw them now too, have Breacher Squads gone from "More Expensive Tac Marines with Fringe Benefits" to Something Slightly more palatable in a non-ZM Game / IF RoW List?

 

Improved but still on the expensive side. When I first saw breachers, before seeing any rules, I immediately thought they had some sort of buff to armor saves. Like a 3+ that can be rerolled on succeed on a 5+, but they got a 5+ invulnerable save instead. Which isn't terrible, but not optimized for the way the game works. Yes they will be going into some dangerous arms fire like potential plasma guns and other low AP weapons, but the majority of what they will have to weather is bolt, lasgun fire, shrapnel and the like. They have the shields because not only is it more dangerous but the volume of fire they face is higher. So they can survive plasma fire outside of cover but it feels like they put the shield aside and tank bolt fire on the chest. It's awkward. I think an approach similar to the advent of salvo is needed. Salvo filled the gap between truly heavy weapons and guns that were just big. A supplemented "shield" save: 3+/5+. A straight 2+ is still better: 16.7% failure chance vs 22.2% with a 3+/5+ and 33.3% with a straight 3+.

 

Assault Squads should have their base price reduced, say about 20-30 points, but a potential reason why they are so expensive is because of how powerful sweeping advances are in 30K. Despoiler squads need transport to get where they want to be so if you use them you'll end up paying that tax anyway. I think that while Fury of the Legion tacticals are good value, a smaller Assault squad with Power Swords could easily beat them in combat and then wipe out the squad in a Sweeping advance.

 

In a game system that uses large squads without special rules to keep them together defeats can potentially be devastating. In one of my games Lord Commander Eidolon wiped out a whole Tactical squad on his own after killing 4 of them (including the sergeant), taking no damage in return, and then sweeping them after they failed their morale check twice (they needed 4s or lower).

 

While good points, the following a key:

 

I think assault squads are a product of the current system in that it has so many disincentives compared to just shooting. When you consider assault marines trade range for some additional speed, should they really cost the amount they do? I remember when Blood Angels could turbo across the table and assault, that's no longer a issue, heck rhinos can only move 6", and disembark troop 6" but still not assault now. It's so easy to counter assault troops nowdays I don't see why on top of that assault troops cost so much.

 

It's hard to get into assault in one peice fi you're not in a fast/tough transport. Then you have to go through overwatch, which can be just bolter fire, or three teams of crisis suits firing twin linked plasmaguns at BS2. Once you're in combat then they do their jobs, but when they're so expensive and every loss makes them worse in CC while not having any good shooting in the mean time makes for an unappealing choice.

[Slips]

Breachers still have Void-Hardened power armor which permits re-rolling of failed armor saves vs Blasts and Templates. Granted, if its Ap3 It just as useful as normal power armor - not very.

[Nusquam]

Breachers still have Void-Hardened power armor which permits re-rolling of failed armor saves vs Blasts and Templates. Granted, if its Ap3 It just as useful as normal power armor - not very.

 

That's just the product of the armor itself, not the shield. So gases, liquids, and shrapnel is covered but it still feels like they're taking anything that's not AP1-3 on the chest and not even using the shield which would most certainly help against AP4-6 weapons. Part of that problem is the limits of a d6 system. Up a die or two, d8, d10 and you could really flesh out the difference in armors, having shields etc.

 

More on the idea of a "shield save" it could work like a Ward or Reanimation Prot "save" mechanics-wise. If they fail armor they get a 5+, but if it's AP1-3 they just get the 5+, essentially combining they already existing invulnerable save with their armor.

 

Another note on hardened armor: it eliminates the psuedo-rending of void warfrare where that 5++ would have helped so you're tanking AP4+ on the chest again. it just doesn't seem intuitive.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Been looking through the rules for some of the legions in LACAL/LAICL and I've come up with some which don't make sense;

 

Warlord Traits; Fear; doesn't stack. Either force reroll (cancelling out other rerolls), allow it to affect Fearless, or additional -1 to Ld.

 

Chosen Warriors; models with this rule aren't actually characters, so can't benefit from legion unique weapons. Would be nice if someone so chosen to be the defender of the legions command echelons could be backed up with their elite Phoenix Power Spears or Nostraman Chainglaives. Also, allow them to make Glorious Interventions.

 

Justaerin; these took a massive points drop from what they were in Betrayal, but still, due to their initial cost, I'm fairly sure that they've missed that there's only 3 in the squad at minimum. Dropping their points to 125-150 isn't really a fantastic thing, as then they become a pretty perfect points filler. As they stand, they are Cataphractii Terminators, with WS5 and Stubborn Ld9 with Furious Charge and the abiltiy to take challenges. As they stand, making them a 5 minimum unit with their points unchanged, they'd be decent. Having said that, to keep them in line with things like Firedrakes, giving them 2 wounds wouldn't be amiss, especially as they are the absolute elite.

 

Abaddon; doesn't have Eternal Warrior. Just doesn't make sense that he's marked by dark fates, but not Eternal Warrior, whereas any old dude with a Salamander Cloak can get shot by a Typhon and keep on walking. And MC'd Power fist? His damage is pretty meagre for someone who was considered a match for Sigismund IIRC. WS7 is nice, sure, but 5, maybe 6 S4 AP3 attacks on the charge isn't exactly the most enthralling attack routine for such a character. Giving him Furious Charge, or a Paragon Sword at least.

 

Loken; loses his Artificer Armour... why? Gains +1 Initiative however, and effectively +1 wound and a slightly reduced form of Eternal Warrior. I think he's worth the points increase, however.

 

Horus; not entirely sure why he has to stay still to call down his Orbital Bombardment, he's a primarch.

 

Rampager Squads; I'd give these boys a 5pt price hike base, and give them Caedere weapons for free (they're really not that good), and swap the Jump Packs cost to a set cost for the unit as per the LACAL for Destroyers. Maybe a rule granting them higher Initiative on the charge, which allows Meteor Hammers the niche to try and assassinate IC's. If not, allow the swap to Heavy Chainblades for free (trading worse AP and an attack for heavier hits).

 

Khârn; no Eternal Warrior. If anyone deserves it during the heresy, it's this guy. Why does he have Artificer with part of his armour missing, while Loken and Sevatar don't?

 

Phoenix Terminators; too expensive. WS5 should be a must at least. These are the very elite of the legion and personally chosen bodyguards of the primarch, who are no better than any old random dude given Terminator Armour. Living Armour; I'd just make this a flat +1 to assault resolution. And I'd also drop the initial cost.

 

Palatines; Palatine Prefector; I'd personally give him +1 attack, to match the Reaver Chieftain.

 

Kakophoni; suck. I'd turn them into Salvo 1/2 Rending and keep them exactly the same otherwise.

 

Tarvitz; a Sniper characterwithout BS5? Reduced attacks Praetor with a Two Handed melee weapon? Terrible.

 

Fulgrim; Laer blade is terrible; Fireblade is infinitely better. Gilded Panoply, while decent, the Blind rule is pretty poor; fix it by giving him Concussive Strike, and maybe change Rending for Armourbane.

 

Death Guard; Power Scythes suck. Rarely are you going to have your models in contact with 3 or more models. I'd rather just make it Rampage. Maybe choose to swing it as a Power fist, gaining 2x Strength and losing Rampage?

 

Deathshroud; these are the ultimate of Mortarions' elite, and they're not WS5? Even Night Lord Terror Squads ("not so much a martial elite") are WS5. I'd also make them immune to the Gets Hot of the Hand Chem Flamers. 

 

Typhon; another example of where the Scythe sucks.

 

Mortarion; would be nice if he had some form of Psychic Hood representative ability. Why oh why is Silence unwieldy? He has the lowest Primarch Initiative bracket, but why can he not swing his weapon faster than an Astartes? I'd rather take some form of Instant Death when in challenge only to balance that out. And another reason of where the Scythe's Sweep sucks. 

 

Iron Hands; Blessed Autosimulacra; Grants a 6+ IWND, or allows a reroll if already IWND. 

 

Night Lords; I wouldn't really want to pay that tax on having characters Teleportation Transponders. Should just be an option for characters in Terminator Armour to take which affects entire squad, including those models joining them. Trophies of Judgement. You're facing armies made of Ld9 units with vexilla for rerolled failed morale checks. Iron Hands get free +1* Toughness versus shooting. I think that it should be free. 

 

Night Raptors; all weapon options are too expensive (-5per), low attacks, no Hit and Run. If anything, drop the WS and just give them a bonus to hit on the charge. And why do they not have Fear?

 

Curze; immunity/resistance to Concussive for the purpose of Hit and Run would be nice (maybe require a Toughness Test, like Blind requires an Initiative Test)

 

Llansahai; not sold on him. Can't think of really how to make him worthwhile, outside of +1 FNP.

 

Sevatar; one of the top duellists, but still too reliant on RNGesus to function as a true character killer. Otherwise, he's relegated to eating non-Artificer Armoured Sergeants thanks to AP3 and not really having enough attacks (5 attacks on the charge? IS THAT IT?). Also, why is he only in power armour? Admittedly, it makes very little difference when facing other AP2 Praetors and you're faster than them, but come on, Khârn is missing a limb of armour and he has a 2+. The Atramentar aren't exactly anything elite in game either? Why not just allow all of those Terminators to Deep Strike if he's taken - and that 6" is bubble is terrible? Master of Ambush no longer does what you think it does. However, Acute Senses in a Terror Squad list is fantastic and fluffy , so I'd just turn that into his unique Warlord Trait.

 

Vulkan; WHY IS HE SO CHEAP? +1Ld, Adamantium Will, reroll IWND, 2+/3++, T7, and a S10 hammer with Concussive? After Horus, this is the best Primarch in the game. His Concussive turns the Hit and Run Primarchs into meat as they rely on that ability. It's not as though they can especially kite him either because of his excellent ranged weapon (seriously, put that on a 100pt Predator, and who would complain?)

 

Nomus Rhy'tan; Ap2 Concussive at Initiative, +1 Elites slot, 2+/4++ Eternal Warrior, 12" Ld 10 with Zealot, Master of the Legion... I'm not sure why people don't take this guy all the time, apart from the fact he's slightly more expensive than a typical Praetor with a reduced damage output (-1 base, -1 no Digital Weapons, -1 Two Handed). 

 

Ashen Circle; Very, very expensive. Giving them an objective killing rule (like Typhon, but permanent) would be some way to give them a niche without being autoinclude and boring old "reduce points, increase stat bloat". Having said that, ranged weapon options are very expensive, and I'd allow Power Axes to benefit from Axe rakes' grapple rule (although -1" isn't exactly fantastic, despite WB's bonuses).

 

Erebus; too much of an autoinclude at the moment. Remove the Harbinger of Chaos special rule. 

 

Kor Phaeron; conversely, absolute rubbish. A Praetor with Paragon Blade and Terminator Armour is better for the same cost. 

 

Lorgar Transfigured; without Biomancy, he's not fantastic in combat. Compared to many other Primarchs, I'd drop him down. Might as well not bother with access to Telekinesis, discipline sucks.

 

Alpha Legion; Venom Spheres need an actual cost option.

 

Banestrike Bolter Rounds; for SoH as well; reduce cost to +10/squad, free to veterans, additional option for seekers at that cost (keep Scorpius rounds, because Shred Rending is better than shorter range FotM Ap3 pseudorend). Characters should get free.

 

Lernaen Terminators; need focussing. Currently all over the place.

 

Exodus; needs extra range, 36" is way too short, and some way of bypassing Look Out Sir; perhaps 6's to hit, or just force a reroll. (standard proceedure involves assinging wounds). Go figure FW rules.

 

Alpharius; Insidious Mastermind isn't fantastic for the purposes of messing with opponent reserves. I'd like to give it the option of being hit by a Sabotage from a Saboteur on a 4+.as otherwise it's a rule which does nothing. Not much fun on a Primarch.

 

Phalanx Warders; very expensive. There is a 105pt unit Tax ppm. And Power Axe options, considering they lose the benefits of Shieldwall are too expensive. I'd drop by 5pts. Obviously, make it clear as well that they're a compulsory troops option for Stone Gauntlet.

 

Dorn; why does a Primarch have an Unwieldly weapon?

 

Raven Guard Ravens Talons; these are hella expensive. 35pts for MC'd Rending LClaws? 

 

Decapitation Strike; there's very little wrong with this list, but I'd allow Mor Deythan to take an Anvillus Drop Pod at the very least with this Rite of War, rather than having to buy one seperately.

 

Darkwing Storm Eagle; I hate the concussive rule. It's incredibly binary; but it's role is to essentially make people slow down, and change "uber units" who are focusing on dealing the highest damage the fastest, but it doesn't really do that; it has no effect on models which aren't wounded, while only affecting those with multiple wounds. Things like Eclipse Missiles, or the EMP Bombs on the Primaris (which at least have Haywire against Mechanicum) which have Concussive rule, I think should have a "lesser" version, which allows a Toughenss test if hit by the missile, with models failing turning to Initiative 1.

 

Corax; Concussive is such a thrown about rule at this level of the game that his Hit and Run is either nullified, or it's not. Like Curze, I'd give him a special ability to take a Toughness Test to shrug off the effects, or force Concussive to only work after a Toughness test or something. It allows you to be reasonably safe from Primarchs whose Combat ability is based on that Concussive rule and multiple combats to win; they can always use that rule, Cruze/Corax can't, trapping them in a combat that they'd otherwise Hit and Run. Hit and Run is such a powerful rule (especially on MC's/Primarch level fighters) that having that rule voided completely unbalances them. 

[jeremy1391]

Even though I have 15 of them I don't forsee myself ever using my assault squad.

[ROBOcaster]

I would have to say that a unit I never use is my Tactical Support Squad with Rotor Cannon I bought these guys before I had picked up the books then saw the weapon profile, they always loose out to the Volt Cali Support Squad. IMO it was a terrible purchase and they will probably only ever see the table during an apoc game. Also regular dread, why would I use these guys if I have Contemptors?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hmmm

 

5 Men, 125pts

 

Rotor Cannon; 15/30"; S3 AP6 Salvo 3/4 = Move or Fire 20 shots hitting on 3's wounding on 5's = 4.4444 wounds, saving on 3's maybe 1 dead.

Volkite Caliver; 30", S6 AP5 Heavy 2 = Move or Fire, 10 Shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, 5.5555 wounds = ~4 saves = 1.5555 unsaved wounds, being generous, and +2 S6 hits = low chance of +1 wound.

 

Against Astartes, the high strength of the Caliver plays out better by maths.

 

Maybe against Auxilia; 6.6667 wounds before saves = 3.333, versus 1.5555+<1, favour goes to Rotor Cannon. 

 

I'm still not sold on the Move or Fire special weapon squad options, and Rotor Cannon allow the best movement of the two. In a Marine heavy meta, the difficulty of wounding is a major reduction in the volkites effectiveness, but with more Solar Auxilia, I think the Rotor Cannon might find more time to play.

 

Still, this is the Heresy. The meat of our opponents will be space marines of some flavour. Facing Eldar or Guard though, I think that the move and fire of the Rotor cannon offers a few more tactical options; 40 shots as the squad increases in size is 13.3 wounds against GEQ's for example, which save on 5's, meaning maybe only 4 save. It is more about finding the right opponent, and the lower utility of S3 weapons does make the Caliver the better weapon of the two (still think Rotor Cannons should be a free swap for flamers).

[ROBOcaster]

That free swap idea sounds nice, or maybe just not cost as much, and yes I have employed them against Tau, Guard and Orks and they work fine, but its rare that I face an opponent like that. Most of the time Im fighting C:SM or C:CSM.

[Sevatar]

Good list Kitwulfen. I would:

1) Create Morlocks for the Iron Hands.

2) Change Gorgons. At the moment they don't do anything Cataphractii Terminators couldn't do better.

3) Give +1 T to Immortals. They are very overpriced, and the Gun Them Down rule is useless.

4) I feel Ferrus Manus is too expensive, as too make him worth his cost you have to take a large amount of AV 13 vehicles. To rectify this I would boost his combat power a lttle bit, giving Forge Breaker Master Crafted. I would also give him Tank Hunter as part of his Master of Mechanisms rule. Currently it makes no sense that this master artifcier is so poor at breaking tanks.

[Raktra]

Give Forgebreaker the rules that Vulkan's hammer has, minus Strikedown Earthshatter.

[Slips]

Give Forgebreaker the rules that Vulkan's hammer has, minus Strikedown.

Its already a thunderhammer striking at initiative, don't see why it should be better when some Primarchs (Dorn and Morty) have Unwieldy weapons :p

[Emperor's Furor]

I really don't get Dorn, he has a giant chainsword, a chainsword! it's not like its a lumbering giant hammer, it's a Primarch sized chainsword and it's unwieldy, really boggles my mind.