Master of Mankind...on the horizon?

[b1soul]

Emperor, The Ultimate in Middle Management

Emp is like Chairman of the Board

 

Horus is the CEO

[bluntblade]

What's Malcador, then?

[Black Cohort]

What's Malcador, then?

 

COO?

[Scribe]

 

 

What's Malcador, then?

COO?

VP of Legal and Internal Quality Control

[Goonbandito]

What's Malcador, then?

Executive Assistant, who has slowly gathered a lot of informal power in the name of the Chairman. Much to annoyance of the Board.

[bluntblade]

Which is a bit rich, when he held that post before any of them were on the board.

[Mellow]

Malcador is literally the Man who what runs the Imperium all proper like.

 

I've always wondered how The Emperor would react if he met Eldrad. Would he try to kill him on sight as he's a "filthy xeno" and The Emperor remembers the Age of Strife when Xeno's and their "non agression pacts" meant F all.

 

Or would he think "look an ally in the long game"

 

I wonder what ADB's opinion on that would be.

[DarkChaplain]

I think the Emperor would be more likely to ally with Eldrad than want him dead. He might have his suspicions, but he's about guarding humanity in the long run, whereas Eldrad is about saving the Eldar, and knows their fates are intertwined. The Emperor realized that the Webway could be mankind's salvation, so he'd be mad not to work with Eldrad. They both aim to excise Chaos and its influence as much as possible, in their own ways.

[b1soul]

What's Malcador, then?

Vice Chairman of the Board

[Augustus]

What the Emperor was trying to build in the Imperium should have been ultimately for the betterment of mankind. It adds to the gravity of and grim dark nature of the failure of it. The rottenness of 41st millennium Imperium.

 

That is not to say the Emperor cannot be a Tyrant. But his End Game should have been for humanity's best interest. He can still have questionable morality(read none) and come off as a cruel emotionless bastard, though.

 

The scene about the water stealing and atrocity overlooking: this can come off as one of the things that make the Emperor look... less than intelligent without context. But we know that the Emperor is less than concerned about the way people live their lives under His(though he said it wasn't) Imperium. The human race is presented as his primary concern. Not humans or their humanity. Not planets out their governments. Not their morals or ethics.

 

The threat was Chaos. Chaos will lead to the destruction of the human race.

 

This is what IMO needs expanding. The Emperor has to demonstrate how his actions were going too help in the protection against Chaos for humanity. If not, the Heresy is a lot less tragic and grim dark if 30k Pol Pot All Capone-ed the entire galaxy and -Chaos- was justified in helping knock him down.

[MrDarth151]

 

If the Emperor sending Valdor to execute someone for treason and taking the criminal's child is somehow impossible to reconcile for you, and somehow unbelievable in scope, then you're definitely right: our viewpoints won't align. And if you're saying that's inconsistent with other portrayals... um... you've not got much of a case there.

 

What? No, The Emperor declaring that a random official commiting pogroms and dealing in forbidden technology is so beneath him that He does not even see fit to include it in charges against a woman He is sentencing to death anyways is something that is unbelievable to me. And yes, considering all of the other times He chastised Legions and Primarchs for excessive and pointless brutality (Night Lords, Word Bearers, World Eater, Iron Warriors...), I find it inconsistent to have Him no care at all.

 

Hell, Perturabo joined Horus because he thought he had no choice after brutally cleansing Olympia from rebels. His justification is that it was a crime The Emperor would not forgive. What, was he deluded, and The Emperor would not care in the slightest?

 

 

In fact, that's kind of alarming because (spoilers) all of those kids that got turned into Space Marines weren't volunteers, and all of those cultures he exterminated weren't thrilled with the idea of extinction, and all of those planets he conquered weren't giving the thumbs up about being conquered, and...

 

One: All of the sources talk about recruitment of the Space Marines talk about recruitment, not kidnapping kids left and right. How forceful the process was is left usually ambigious, we know that for example Ahriman was taken from his parents with their full approval after he was found to be compatible with Geneseed. And Alan Bligh notes that all of the first Astartes were volunteers from Emperor's personal guard in FW HH book one.

 

Two: HH FW book one notes that total extermination of human cultures was rare, and that diplomacy was prefered first option. Collected Visions note that many worlds have joined The Emperor willingly. Dan Abnett in Know no Fear has Roboute state that total destruction of civilisations was a final measure and that even World Eaters employed it only sparringly. Great Crusade was not a campaign of extermination... for humans, at any rate.

 

Three: As noted, many worlds joined Emperor peacefully.

 

Also, are you aware what false equivalency fallacy is? Because you are doing it. There is a difference between committing questionable acts for a purpoes and commiting them for the hell of it.

 

 

Really, dude. If that extract doesn't sit well with you, when it's just about the most minor thing ever written about the Emperor in published lore, I wonder just who you think he is and what you've read about his actions in the past, since you seem to be expecting something entirely unrelated to everything previously written about him.

 

I consider The Emperor to be a great leader, and one that did what he considered necessary for protection of continued existance of the humankind. I think him utilitarian, and I think there is a reasoning to his action. I don't think he is pointlessly callous, nor do I find him immoral, because he fits perfectly into consequentialist-utilitarian paradigm, which I myself subscribe to. And I don't think he is either stupid nor incompetent.

 

 

He sends Valdor to execute a criminal stealing a precious and rare resource from Imperial territory. You think that is bizarre and uncharacteristic and a sign of a terrible leader?

 

No, I think Him thinking nothing of purges and breaking of His own laws is bizarre, uncharacteristic and a sign of a terrible leader. Not being able to control your subjects is considered a sign of weakness. So what do even consider ability to do so and deliberatly choosing not to? There is no benefit in either not punishing that woman for breaking imperial laws and killing imperial citizens nor in ignoring her crimes in that regard. Explain to me, why would The Emperor do such thing?

 

 

I try to give the benefit of the doubt and take dissenting opinion on board (indeed, I even try to write so dissenting opinion may also be right; or simply not to put my own opinion on the lore in at all), but at this point it's sounding a bit like you're fighting really hard not to like it. There's nothing remotely out of character for the Emperor in that, and nothing even particularly noteworthy.

 

Really? Ignoring mass murderers is now in character for The Emperor? Khorne must celebrate that day in joy.

 

Because you do realise that it is impossible to interpret that scene in any other way? That The Emperor would allow unsanctioned purges commited by a known lawbreaker to go on indefinetely because he just doesn't give a damn?

 

What is the point of it? I do not understand.

 

I do not start ANY 40k book with the intention to hate it. I adore the universe and had for over a decade. 

 

You know what I want? I want to read Master of Mankind, finish it, and not be left with a feeling that The Emperor of Mankind was not only undeserving of rulling the Imperium, but also incapable of it. The man set out to end The Old Night. He started the Great Crusade to unite Humanity and bring enlightment and order to the galaxy. I do not think that caring so little about the common men of the Imperium as to not even punish someone for the crime of pointlessly slaughtering them is a part of that. I would understand if he simply did not know about it, not intentionally ignoring it. My internal image of The Emperor stems from combination of Collected Visions and Graham McNeill's portrayl of the character. I believe He is a man to slaughter thousands in the name of Humanity's survival and triumph over darkness, and regret the loss of those lives, not one to dismiss mass murder as not worth His time. The former, I can understand why would people follow him. The latter, I cannot. 

 

Have I made my feelings on the matter clearer?

[Roomsky]

Much as I want to, I'll skip the extract like I do for all HH books. If I start reading a month in advance, I think I'll probably whither and die in the ensuing anticipation.

[Scribe]

Darth from which of McNeills books are you drawing this more benevolent image of the Emperor?

 

I thought I had read all his books, and from what I remember the Emperor has never shown that he cared for the little guy.

[MrDarth151]

Darth from which of McNeills books are you drawing this more benevolent image of the Emperor?

 

I thought I had read all his books, and from what I remember the Emperor has never shown that he cared for the little guy.

 

Thousand Sons, Angel Exterminatus, Outcast Dead. But my image of The Emperor as more benevolent also stems from Collected Visions.

 

And one more thing: If The Emperor is amoral, or worse, immoral, to the degree you argue, then he stops making sense. Emperor needs morality as a limiting factor, because he is so powerful and so influential otherwise that Horus Heresy could never threaten him in the slightest.

[Black Cohort]

The Emperor cares for Humanity as a whole both current and future, which often requires him to not care about individual humans.

[MrDarth151]

The Emperor cares for Humanity as a whole both current and future, which often requires him to not care about individual humans.

 

And that is indeed correct.

 

Now explain what requires him to not care in the extract.

[Vesper]

 

 

If the Emperor sending Valdor to execute someone for treason and taking the criminal's child is somehow impossible to reconcile for you, and somehow unbelievable in scope, then you're definitely right: our viewpoints won't align. And if you're saying that's inconsistent with other portrayals... um... you've not got much of a case there.

 

What? No, The Emperor declaring that a random official commiting pogroms and dealing in forbidden technology is so beneath him that He does not even see fit to include it in charges against a woman He is sentencing to death anyways is something that is unbelievable to me. And yes, considering all of the other times He chastised Legions and Primarchs for excessive and pointless brutality (Night Lords, Word Bearers, World Eater, Iron Warriors...), I find it inconsistent to have Him no care at all.

 

Hell, Perturabo joined Horus because he thought he had no choice after brutally cleansing Olympia from rebels. His justification is that it was a crime The Emperor would not forgive. What, was he deluded, and The Emperor would not care in the slightest?

 

 

In fact, that's kind of alarming because (spoilers) all of those kids that got turned into Space Marines weren't volunteers, and all of those cultures he exterminated weren't thrilled with the idea of extinction, and all of those planets he conquered weren't giving the thumbs up about being conquered, and...

 

One: All of the sources talk about recruitment of the Space Marines talk about recruitment, not kidnapping kids left and right. How forceful the process was is left usually ambigious, we know that for example Ahriman was taken from his parents with their full approval after he was found to be compatible with Geneseed. And Alan Bligh notes that all of the first Astartes were volunteers from Emperor's personal guard in FW HH book one.

 

Two: HH FW book one notes that total extermination of human cultures was rare, and that diplomacy was prefered first option. Collected Visions note that many worlds have joined The Emperor willingly. Dan Abnett in Know no Fear has Roboute state that total destruction of civilisations was a final measure and that even World Eaters employed it only sparringly. Great Crusade was not a campaign of extermination... for humans, at any rate.

 

Three: As noted, many worlds joined Emperor peacefully.

 

Also, are you aware what false equivalency fallacy is? Because you are doing it. There is a difference between committing questionable acts for a purpoes and commiting them for the hell of it.

 

 

Really, dude. If that extract doesn't sit well with you, when it's just about the most minor thing ever written about the Emperor in published lore, I wonder just who you think he is and what you've read about his actions in the past, since you seem to be expecting something entirely unrelated to everything previously written about him.

 

I consider The Emperor to be a great leader, and one that did what he considered necessary for protection of continued existance of the humankind. I think him utilitarian, and I think there is a reasoning to his action. I don't think he is pointlessly callous, nor do I find him immoral, because he fits perfectly into consequentialist-utilitarian paradigm, which I myself subscribe to. And I don't think he is either stupid nor incompetent.

 

 

He sends Valdor to execute a criminal stealing a precious and rare resource from Imperial territory. You think that is bizarre and uncharacteristic and a sign of a terrible leader?

 

No, I think Him thinking nothing of purges and breaking of His own laws is bizarre, uncharacteristic and a sign of a terrible leader. Not being able to control your subjects is considered a sign of weakness. So what do even consider ability to do so and deliberatly choosing not to? There is no benefit in either not punishing that woman for breaking imperial laws and killing imperial citizens nor in ignoring her crimes in that regard. Explain to me, why would The Emperor do such thing?

 

 

I try to give the benefit of the doubt and take dissenting opinion on board (indeed, I even try to write so dissenting opinion may also be right; or simply not to put my own opinion on the lore in at all), but at this point it's sounding a bit like you're fighting really hard not to like it. There's nothing remotely out of character for the Emperor in that, and nothing even particularly noteworthy.

 

Really? Ignoring mass murderers is now in character for The Emperor? Khorne must celebrate that day in joy.

 

Because you do realise that it is impossible to interpret that scene in any other way? That The Emperor would allow unsanctioned purges commited by a known lawbreaker to go on indefinetely because he just doesn't give a damn?

 

What is the point of it? I do not understand.

 

I do not start ANY 40k book with the intention to hate it. I adore the universe and had for over a decade. 

 

You know what I want? I want to read Master of Mankind, finish it, and not be left with a feeling that The Emperor of Mankind was not only undeserving of rulling the Imperium, but also incapable of it. The man set out to end The Old Night. He started the Great Crusade to unite Humanity and bring enlightment and order to the galaxy. I do not think that caring so little about the common men of the Imperium as to not even punish someone for the crime of pointlessly slaughtering them is a part of that. I would understand if he simply did not know about it, not intentionally ignoring it. My internal image of The Emperor stems from combination of Collected Visions and Graham McNeill's portrayl of the character. I believe He is a man to slaughter thousands in the name of Humanity's survival and triumph over darkness, and regret the loss of those lives, not one to dismiss mass murder as not worth His time. The former, I can understand why would people follow him. The latter, I cannot. 

 

Have I made my feelings on the matter clearer?

 

 

I don't really agree with you for the most part. I mean, "great leader" can mean two different things. Is he an inspiring parangon, an example for all Mankind to follow ? No. Is he a ruthless, efficient and powerful being whose might makes right ? The kind of guy that organizes purges and sends hitmen to kill those he doesn't like instead of having them face trial ? Yes, he's that kind of great leader.

 

The kidnappings were a thing and still are by 40k. Did some legions enjoy the overall consentment of the parents ? Yes, we know the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers did, even if it was clear it was a formal consentment, in truth, they just didn't have the choice. When Erebus comes for Argel Tal, his parents know their son is leaving no matter what they say.

 

On the breakings of his laws, he would be quite the hypocrite if he condemned ethnical and political purges and in the end, that may weaken his rule even more than letting it slide. That doesn't mean he's never hypocrite, he's far from perfect after all. Then, he indeed struggle to keep his people in check. He failed with the Primarchs, he failed with the Legions, he failed overall with Mankind because it is Mankind's nature to be, to an extent feral, chaotic and out of control. Something he probably regrets greatly, knowing how close Mankind and Chaos are. And how distant he is from Mankind.

 

And about Khorne enjoying every bit of it, yeah, obviously. It's no news that everything Mankind does, even under the oders of the Emperor makes the Warp react. That's how the setting works.

[MrDarth151]

 

I don't really agree with you for the most part. I mean, "great leader" can mean two different things. Is he an inspiring parangon, an example for all Mankind to follow ? No. Is he a ruthless, efficient and powerful being whose might makes right ? The kind of guy that organizes purges and sends hitmen to kill those he doesn't like instead of having them face trial ? Yes, he's that kind of great leader.

 

The inspiring paragon part most loyalist seem to disagree with you on. I am also not aware of him organising purges to further his own power, rather than ensure continued survival of Mankind, having read almost all of HH series, and most additional material on it at this point. Could you provide citations where exactly that happened and where it was stated? Also, other than the recent example of Custodes serving as his executioners, I am unaware of any instance where he personally ordered assassination of someone, other than Curze. Indeed, Nemesis notes specifically that the Clades operate largely outside of his sphere of influence, under command of Malcador and that this arrangement is deliberate.

 

 

The kidnappings were a thing and still are by 40k. Did some legions enjoy the overall consentment of the parents ? Yes, we know the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers did, even if it was clear it was a formal consentment, in truth, they just didn't have the choice. When Erebus comes for Argel Tal, his parents know their son is leaving no matter what they say.

 

Which part of there being a purpoes in that, but not allowing unchecked purges by lower subordinates did you not understand?

 

 

On the breakings of his laws, he would be quite the hypocrite if he condemned ethnical and political purges and in the end, that may weaken his rule even more than letting it slide. That doesn't mean he's never hypocrite, he's far from perfect after all.

 

He. Ordered. Her. Killed. Anyways. Do you seriously claim that adding "And you will die for murdering my subjects too" would somehow threaten his position? That is ludicrous. And give me sources of The Emperor commiting ethnical and political purges.

 

 

Then, he indeed struggle to keep his people in check. He failed with the Primarchs, he failed with the Legions, he failed overall with Mankind because it is Mankind's nature to be, to an extent feral, chaotic and out of control. Something he probably regrets greatly, knowing how close Mankind and Chaos are. And how distant he is from Mankind.

 

There is a difference between not being perfect, and being incompetent.

 

 

And about Khorne enjoying every bit of it, yeah, obviously. It's no news that everything Mankind does, even under the oders of the Emperor makes the Warp react. That's how the setting works.

 

And you are claiming that The Emperor does not know enough about Chaos to not let random slaughter happen? Because you are making him sound positively moronic right now.

[Forward Assist]

Pal, personally I don't rate Gav Thorpe's work but I at least wait until one of his novels has been released and I've read it before I have a field day.

 

Why not ease off until after MoM is out, see the context the extract sits in as part of the complete novel, and then voice your opinion? Or, if you didn't like the extract, don't buy the book?

[Scribe]

Perhaps it's collected visions, as that is something I've not read.

 

ATS and AE, I never got the impression that the Emperor was anything but what I've always thought. Aka tyrannical.

 

Outcast dead throws some shade on him as well with the Thunder Warriors, and Him having disposable assets.

 

Then again that book was weird.

 

Edit: as far as purges go, it doesn't matter if the E stops it. Any death fuels Khorne, it's a lost cause.

 

Maybe MORE die if he tries to stop this ladies purges, providing MORE Khorne fuel?

[MrDarth151]

Pal, personally I don't rate Gav Thorpe's work but I at least wait until one of his novels has been released and I've read it before I have a field day.

 

Why not ease off until after MoM is out, see the context the extract sits in as part of the complete novel, and then voice your opinion? Or, if you didn't like the extract, don't buy the book?

 

*Sigh*

 

I suppose. I grow increasingly bitter, and that is not healthy for me.

 

If the book is good, it is good. And if it is bad, it is bad. Nothing more to it, at this point.

 

 

tyrannical.

 

That does not mean evil. The issue is far more complex than that.

 

But as I said. Lets drop it until the book comes out, at least. By the grace of the Golden Throne, it will prove not to be infuriating to me.

[Vesper]

The inspiring paragon part most loyalist seem to disagree with you on.

Do you mean the brainwashed post-human child soldiers ? Or maybe the lowly dudes that never saw him, thinking about a mythical, romanced, figure they know nothing about ? I don't mind having them disagreeing with me. I'm willing to think his power is astonishing, but he isn't an exemplar of moral values or of human qualities since he isn't human. I don't think a gorilla or a whale can be an inspiring parangon. And I don't think he minds. He's probably above that and knows it's not a necessary thing.

 

He. Ordered. Her. Killed. Anyways. Do you seriously claim that adding "And you will die for murdering my subjects too" would somehow threaten his position? That is ludicrous. And give me sources of The Emperor commiting ethnical and political purges.

I meant if he publicly condamned her for that. Even in private, she could've argued with Valdor that the Emperor murdered her armies / friends and countless other humans on Terra. That's a typical rise of a revolutionary state. When a revolution occurs, some people just don't fit in the program, in the society the revolutionary want to create. In their very essence. So they have to die. I won't cite any real world example, but there are many. And I'm french, so you can easily guess one of those. The Techno-barbarians didn't fit in the idea of the Imperium, and so they were to be destroyed. Note that the Emperor was the aggressor. And he always is during the Great Crusade.

But since you want sources, most engagements of the Night Lords, for instance the destruction of the Saragorn Enclave, as per FW HH books.

 

 

There is a difference between not being perfect, and being incompetent.

I don't think he is. He united Terra, albeit on blood and skulls. He conquered the stars, albeit on blood and skulls. At least for a time. But he simply isn't powerful enough to keep all Mankind in the rank. Because no one can. That's not being incompetent. But feel free to hyperbole regardless.

 

And you are claiming that The Emperor does not know enough about Chaos to not let random slaughter happen? Because you are making him sound positively moronic right now.

I simply don't think it matters that much. And he has much, much more blood on his hands than most techno-barbarian warlords. I simply think he didn't saw any other way than bloodshed to attain his goals and saw it as a necessary evil.

 

And for Khorne, random slaughter or not, he doesn't care.

[Scribe]

As someone who has some pretty unshakeable views on a few things Darth, I can appreciate your frustration here, sometimes it's best to just let it go and try and reconcile it as best you can.

[Izlude]

Glad the 2017 calendar came out, was thinking of what else to get with MoM to avoid the shipping charges to the US. MoM with the new 2017 calendar puts me over. Excited for both, they 2017 has pretty def artwork.  

[MrDarth151]

But I will say this much: My misgivings about The Emperor and his characterisation aside, I am looking forwards to Custodes being badass. They've fallen on rough times in recent years, with everyone kicking their assess whenever they appear, like recently, when few Harlequins murdered dozens.

 

So in that regard, at least, I should be satisfied by the book. Because ADB's Custodes are skilled as they should be. And not mooks to slaughtered by their enemies.