Master of Mankind...on the horizon?

[HeritorA]

Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC.

I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there.

He stole/won the powers to create Primarchs. It was directly stated by Horus. And Gods of Chaos has no reasons to lie, then it's the truth

Directly stated by the Chaos Gods' most famous complete and total dupe.

This is the danger in taking anything at this level of the lore at 100% face value (especially when it's never written that way), because then anything that contradicts it or doesn't mention it is considered wrong. The Emperor making a deal with the Chaos Gods is one of those "Lost Legions" kinds of things. I don't know anyone that "knows" it's true. Or what the point of the deal would really be, to what benefit, etc.

It's possible, sure, but I know various folks in power that believe it's true and others that believe it's nonsense.

Ty A D-B. I will extrapolate a little here - it's the truth cause we all know that the Emperor is a 'grey' figure. He did a lot of good, but also he has done a lot of 'bad' things for the glory of the Imperium. All that he has done was done with some definite necessity in sight.

But - that doesb't mean that Empra hasn't stole something or bargained with Chaos Gods. If that was for a bigger reason (and it was - to create demigods) he definitely would have done that.

And did I get you correctly - there are Chaos Titans and traitor Space mahrines in the webway?

So by that logic Magnus broke a whole in the webway (human bit) and The Emperor sat on the Golden Throne to keep it sealed. At that point there was a "war" which going by the above from ADB means at the conclusion of the book that war is finished and the whole in the webway is sealed. This is acceptable sounding to me as it means the critically injured E would only need to keep the Light house shining rather than hold the webway closed as well which seems like less work. The only problem is many pieces of lore state that he sits on the throne to keep the webway sealed as well.

One Custodian. A few Custodians. Many many Custodites. A battalion of Custodianites.

You got me with many many!

[Loesh]

Whenever someone tells me 'It's the truth' about anything in Warhammer 40k fluff, I become increasingly less convinced it's the truth.

 

I mean, let's assume that Chaos power is needed to make Primarchs. It's generally my favored theory after the death of Ferrus Manus actually: What makes you think that making a deal with the Chaos Gods is required? How is a deal with the Chaos Gods made? What would it even entail? This is what I mean about the idea of making a deal with the Chaos Gods being vague. It could refer to the vast psychic might that the Emperor wields because technically that is Chaos power, just refined through his will and perhaps in the eyes of the Dark Gods it's stolen. Though i'd say not any more stolen then any other psyker powers in the galaxy.

 

Does it refer to forbidden sorcery? a melding with science in Magitech? if so, is it really making a 'deal' with the Chaos Gods when you invoke the primordial words of creation or traffick with one of their billions of lesser fragments for some boon or piece of knowledge? Can you really even make a deal with something that lacks coherent sentience, or at least a sentience that is understandable in mortal terms?

 

That's just a small handful of questions that theory brings to mind.

[Varas]

I just read the extract and I enjoyed it. I can't wait for the novel. I somewhat agree with Darth's take on the Emperor I personally envision him as a brilliant, compassionate 'man' who has had to do evil things out of necessity but who is more than a brutal warlord.

 

However I didn't have a huge problem with what was done to the Minister. Sure it was a little odd that Valdor seemed to dismiss her other crimes as insignificant but I wasn't really bothered by it (taking her son seemed pretty inline with normal Imperial practices to me). As ADB mentioned it kinda made me wonder why? And this can actually be good storytelling because it makes my mind work. I remember in Talon of Horus (which I LOVED btw) I thought it was pretty odd that Abbadon

killed horus out of hand without explanation

but it got my brain whirling trying to figure out why and mentally justifying it which in turn gave Abbadon more depth and made him somewhat more real if any of that makes sense.

 

Still I'm glad to see posts like Darths, because I think dissenting opinion that's respectful and well considered (which I felt his was even if I don't fully agree) is very important. After all what's the point of an echo chamber?

 

Ultimately even if I don't like the way the novel portrays the Emperor I really only care if the novel is enjoyable and so far I've never been disappointed by ADB in that regard.

 

I did have one question though. It stated in the novel that Valdor was transformed from a normal human (presumably like other marines), however I thought I remembered that the Custodes were actually created whole cloth like Primarchs, but to a lesser degree. Was this a retcon, a mistake, or did I simply remember wrong? And does this mean that the Custode's gene father is the Emperor?

[bluntblade]

Abaddon had plenty of reason. Horus was a failure, and to repeat such a catastrophic failure wasn't worth a second attempt. And his comrades were being killed.

[Varas]

Abaddon had plenty of reason. Horus was a failure, and to repeat such a catastrophic failure wasn't worth a second attempt. And his comrades were being killed.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply that the scene was pointless or stupid, but rather that at least I could see a few reasons for it which I think makes it stronger. For example ADB could have had Abbadon give a speech saying 'I did this because of XYZ' or had him as the narrator. Now this might have been crystal clear to someone else reading it but to me I always saw Abbadon as doggedly loyal to Horus, did this change after the siege (completely possible), simply a matter of survival (it needed to be done and he wasn't one to wear his emotions on his sleves), did chaos corruption change him (also possible), or some other reason?

 

Personal I like to think that he was torn, he loved his father but was also disappointed in him this turmoil led him to go off on his own. He saw the clone as somewhat of an abomination and also a manifestation of his inner conflict and killing it was sort of a cathartic moment so now he really felt ready to take his place as Warmaster. The situation obviously forced his hand but I wondered how he felt. Now I'm completely willing to acknowledge that I may have completely misread his intentions (I listened to the audio while painting so I might have missed some critical points), however the fact that I could create my own narrative (even if wrong) gave the scene more depth to me.

[b1soul]

I think you're saying the writer could've explained it more directly...but he gave us more room to think about it

[Prot]

I really want to read about those long weekends at the cabin between the Emperor and Magnus... you know before the whole you're really my favorite thing went down hill.

 

I'm still dying for this to come out but I've re-tweaked my expectations. I'm trying to stay open as possible to how deep the storyline is. It could be really deep stuff, or perhaps it's a flash back to Mr.E taking his kids school supplies shopping or something of that nature. ;)

[Loesh]

or perhaps it's a flash back to Mr.E taking his kids school supplies shopping or something of that nature.

Are you kidding me?(I mean obviously, it's a joke.) But I would kill for a book about the preparations big E was making for the Primarchs.

[Zeratil]

or perhaps it's a flash back to Mr.E taking his kids school supplies shopping or something of that nature.

Are you kidding me?(I mean obviously, it's a joke.) But I would kill for a book about the preparations big E was making for the Primarchs.

I would as well, but I this and Molech falls firmly into the category of stuff better left unwritten, much like the 2nd and 11th Primarchs. Whatever BL came up with at this point would never satisfy enough fans to be worth it. Better to let everyone have and debate their own theories (respectfully of course).

[DarKnight]

 

Abaddon had plenty of reason. Horus was a failure, and to repeat such a catastrophic failure wasn't worth a second attempt. And his comrades were being killed.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply that the scene was pointless or stupid, but rather that at least I could see a few reasons for it which I think makes it stronger. For example ADB could have had Abbadon give a speech saying 'I did this because of XYZ' or had him as the narrator. Now this might have been crystal clear to someone else reading it but to me I always saw Abbadon as doggedly loyal to Horus, did this change after the siege (completely possible), simply a matter of survival (it needed to be done and he wasn't one to wear his emotions on his sleves), did chaos corruption change him (also possible), or some other reason?

 

Personal I like to think that he was torn, he loved his father but was also disappointed in him this turmoil led him to go off on his own. He saw the clone as somewhat of an abomination and also a manifestation of his inner conflict and killing it was sort of a cathartic moment so now he really felt ready to take his place as Warmaster. The situation obviously forced his hand but I wondered how he felt. Now I'm completely willing to acknowledge that I may have completely misread his intentions (I listened to the audio while painting so I might have missed some critical points), however the fact that I could create my own narrative (even if wrong) gave the scene more depth to me.

 

It's stated pretty explicitly in 'The Talon' that aside from cloning being so despised a practice even Traitor Marines give it pause, a Legion (seemingly the Emperor's Children if Fabius has any real allegiance to them, but any Legion that could procure his services) with Horus Reborn at their head would win the War in the Eye of Terror. Abaddon of course does not want this, as well as Khayon, and countless others.

[Sete]

It's just a fake watered down Horus. Not the real thing.

We still don't know what processes the Emperor used in creating the primarchs, and if Fabius thinks he is at the same level as the Emperor, he is out of his mind. Which we know he is.

[DarKnight]

It's just a fake watered down Horus. Not the real thing.

We still don't know what processes the Emperor used in creating the primarchs, and if Fabius thinks he is at the same level as the Emperor, he is out of his mind. Which we know he is.

A fake watered down Horus was worth the risk and effort of Abaddon to sail halfway across the eye of terror to kill him, and in the process Forus (fake Horus) killed 100 plus Rubricae, 37 World Eaters, and a few more people, before he was stopped. I'd imagine that's on par with the real deal. Not to devolve into power levels or whatnot, but a clone that was 75% of the real Horus is still a pretty big threat, no? And who knows what research and tips from the Chaos gods Fabius has accumulated while in the Eye?

[Sete]

But it was the Emperor who made the Primarchs not the Chaos Gods. I reckon Fabius can make pretty good clones, but I keep my reservations that they are 100% like the Original. I just think that in a way the clones are not infused with whatever warp power the Emperor used to create them.

Ofc it was worth the risk, or else Fabius would have a weapon that would tip the scale of power against Abbadon. And in one blow he destroyed the competition and made a point.

I'm not saying he wasn't a threat, but the Original Horus was deleted by the Emperor.

This is just a souless genetic copy.

[DarKnight]

But it was the Emperor who made the Primarchs not the Chaos Gods. I reckon Fabius can make pretty good clones, but I keep my reservations that they are 100% like the Original. I just think that in a way the clones are not infused with whatever warp power the Emperor used to create them.

Ofc it was worth the risk, or else Fabius would have a weapon that would tip the scale of power against Abbadon. And in one blow he destroyed the competition and made a point.

I'm not saying he wasn't a threat, but the Original Horus was deleted by the Emperor.

This is just a souless genetic copy.

Well he's dead as :cuss now so who cares/doesn't matter

[HeritorA]

Abaddon had plenty of reason. Horus was a failure, and to repeat such a catastrophic failure wasn't worth a second attempt. And his comrades were being killed.

Good point - and just a question then. I always was curious as to why soldiers (in our case CSM) follows a leader who doesn' care a bit about them. From all the novels with Abaddon in W40K - he killed, punished, sacrificed his 'brothers' for victories and failures as he wished. By what absence of any logic you  (CSM) being a hateful f... (and let's not pretend they are shiny gleeful cherubs) you will follow someone like 'Warmaster' to be butchered now or somewhere later in the future? Because he is powerful and hates Imperium - yes, he is. Is it worth that he will bucther you on a spot then he is angry or disappointed? Don't think so.

If you are a CSM warband leader and have a fleet - what stops you saying hi Abby and simply run away to the other corner of the Eye of Terror. What do you think - that Abaddon will start running after everyone who says 'no' or 'f..' to him? He simply will spend all his time doing that. And nobody will follow him after that for sure.

Any opinions would be much appreciated.

 

It would be good to have A D-B address it in his incoming Black Crusade novel.

 

 

It's just a fake watered down Horus. Not the real thing.

We still don't know what processes the Emperor used in creating the primarchs, and if Fabius thinks he is at the same level as the Emperor, he is out of his mind. Which we know he is.

A fake watered down Horus was worth the risk and effort of Abaddon to sail halfway across the eye of terror to kill him, and in the process Forus (fake Horus) killed 100 plus Rubricae, 37 World Eaters, and a few more people, before he was stopped. I'd imagine that's on par with the real deal. Not to devolve into power levels or whatnot, but a clone that was 75% of the real Horus is still a pretty big threat, no? And who knows what research and tips from the Chaos gods Fabius has accumulated while in the Eye?

 

 

Soo true. Even 50 % of real Horus is a BIG DEAL. We are talking PRIMARCH, and not just Curze or Lorgar weaklings. We are talking Horus Lupercal.

[Kelborn]

Can someone correct me, please?

 

As far as I remember, Clone Horus never killed 37 WE and 100 Rubricae. A few dozens of Rubricae and about 6 WE, maybe Gyre and maybe the Bloodwarden but that's it.

He nearly went straight for Khayon, then his bodyguards, then Telemachon and then he was impaled by Abbadon. Whole fight was about a couple of seconds at all.

I don't want to say that he's not THAT powerful. All I want is to clarify his kill account. ;)

[Forward Assist]

If you are a CSM warband leader and have a fleet - what stops you saying hi Abby and simply run away to the other corner of the Eye of Terror. What do you think - that Abaddon will start running after everyone who says 'no' or 'f..' to him? He simply will spend all his time doing that. And nobody will follow him after that for sure.

Any opinions would be much appreciated.

 

 

Abbadon's portrayal in ToH is a lot more nuanced than previous iterations of him. He's no longer the choleric First Captain whose first answer is always violence but a wiser warrior tempered by his pilgrimage through the Eye. I imagine warlords flock to him out of respect for his martial ability, look for kinship in his brotherhood, and believe in his vision of a destiny free from distant fathers. I doubt many would choose to depart from his legionl

[DarKnight]

Can someone correct me, please?

As far as I remember, Clone Horus never killed 37 WE and 100 Rubricae. A few dozens of Rubricae and about 6 WE, maybe Gyre and maybe the Bloodwarden but that's it.

He nearly went straight for Khayon, then his bodyguards, then Telemachon and then he was impaled by Abbadon. Whole fight was about a couple of seconds at all.

I don't want to say that he's not THAT powerful. All I want is to clarify his kill account.

There were 100 Rubrics brought aboard the ​Pulchritudinous, along with 38 World Eaters in the 15 Fangs warband, and the rest of the crew. Pretty sure most if not all of those dudes got killed, but it wasn't like there was a soul count in the book at the end of the fight. Guess we'll see in The Black Legion

[Kelborn]

Sorry mate but that's not correct.

Only 6 or 7 plus Firefist World Eaters survived the initial ambush at the beginning of ToH.

 

I may be a nitpicker but there's a huge difference between 8 or 38 WEs. :)

 

*edit*

Just checked it again:

100 Rubricae

30 possessed Justaerin

6 World Eaters

"Command Squad" (Abbadon, Khayon, etc.)

[Petitioner's City]

About Gyre ...

Gyre isn't dead, she comes back in feline form in one of the short stories published in the special edition, 'The Wonderworker'

I think in terms of Abaddon's characterisation, it is interesting that ADB raised the spectre of Abaddon being a clone of Horus during the meeting with Falkus, Lheor and Khayon. Whether true or not, the former first captain would be aware of the rumours about his heritage - indeed Falkus hopes it is true, in his desperate state. The clone of Horus is a doppelganger to both Horus and Abaddon, whether the latter is a clone or not. The clone is not only a political or military threat to Abaddon's own plans of a new Legion, but for him personally is an existential threat to his own identity - displacing his specialness as a particular 'son' and also the living embodiment-cum-replacment of all Horus's failed potential.

.... maybe it's a case of The Double or Black Swan - the person who threatens your everything?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG8qATRtNuU

Actually this narration so suits Abaddon ...

[DarKnight]

Sorry mate but that's not correct.

Only 6 or 7 plus Firefist World Eaters survived the initial ambush at the beginning of ToH.

I may be a nitpicker but there's a huge difference between 8 or 38 WEs. :)

*edit*

Just checked it again:

100 Rubricae

30 possessed Justaerin

6 World Eaters

"Command Squad" (Abbadon, Khayon, etc.)

You are correct sir

[bluntblade]

 

or perhaps it's a flash back to Mr.E taking his kids school supplies shopping or something of that nature. ;)

 

Are you kidding me?(I mean obviously, it's a joke.) But I would kill for a book about the preparations big E was making for the Primarchs.

Does anyone else see the Emperor looking forlornly at twenty huge, empty cots?

 

 

If you are a CSM warband leader and have a fleet - what stops you saying hi Abby and simply run away to the other corner of the Eye of Terror. What do you think - that Abaddon will start running after everyone who says 'no' or 'f..' to him? He simply will spend all his time doing that. And nobody will follow him after that for sure.

Any opinions would be much appreciated.

 

Abbadon's portrayal in ToH is a lot more nuanced than previous iterations of him. He's no longer the choleric First Captain whose first answer is always violence but a wiser warrior tempered by his pilgrimage through the Eye. I imagine warlords flock to him out of respect for his martial ability, look for kinship in his brotherhood, and believe in his vision of a destiny free from distant fathers. I doubt many would choose to depart from his legionl

Honestly, Abnett's depiction in Horus Rising isn't a million miles from AD-B's. He is the most aggressive of the Mournival, certainly, but you still believe that the rest will respect him. Unfortunately subsequent books have reduced him to a grump who doesn't appear to be good at much apart from melee.

[Petitioner's City]

Everyone's depiction in Horus Rising was a lot more subtle than what followed in the next three books...

[bluntblade]

Very true.

[b1soul]

Honestly, Abnett's depiction in Horus Rising isn't a million miles from AD-B's. He is the most aggressive of the Mournival, certainly, but you still believe that the rest will respect him. Unfortunately subsequent books have reduced him to a grump who doesn't appear to be good at much apart from melee.

Abnett is a fantastic writer

 

His Abaddon and his Alpha Legion were later abused by less skilled writers