Master of Mankind...on the horizon?

[Scribe]

Meh, I know trolling, and this isnt trolling.

[Augustus]

but the crimes did matter. it is simply that the one that our minister friend is being executed for specifically is the crime of stealing water.

 

way too much emphasis being put on this tbfh. And i'm finding it pretty ridiculous that darth has so much to pointlessly trample out of so little an extract. 

 

Very much of the opinion as a silent observer of this thread up to now that he is simply trolling. He may put things across in a 'smart' way but it is still needlessly antagonistic to so many people here as well as the author himself (which is startling considering its the author. and the most respected one at that) - Trolling or possesses some unfortunate ailment of the mind.

 

But Valdor says the laundry list of crimes basically didn't matter to the Emperor. That the reason she was given a death sentence was putting her hand in Emperor's cookie jar. This is perfectly OK if you your view of the Emperor is the Last Tyrant of Terra.

 

Darth, I believe, is saying this is a poor quality of a leader. A leader that he finds hard to believe billions would fight for.

[mc warhammer]

Darth, you are certainly entitled to your opinion...

 

If I understand correctly, you think

 

1. The Emp orders or condones genocide when he believes such killings benefit the greater good of humanity

 

2. The Emp condemns or punishes genocide when he believes such killings harm the greater good.

 

That is logical...the Emp is against "detrimental" killing but for "beneficial" killing

 

Perhaps the harm caused by Zu's domestic pogroms is of such small scale that it doesn't even register on the Emp's radar...whereas the stealing of water is much more harmful in comparison? In principal, the Emp might be against it, but it's such a minor harm that he doesn't bother to add it to the charges. Water-theft is sufficient.

 

even then, who says that hypocrisy in any way challenges effectiveness? people in positions of power are often hypocrites.

[A D-B]

 

but the crimes did matter. it is simply that the one that our minister friend is being executed for specifically is the crime of stealing water.

 

way too much emphasis being put on this tbfh. And i'm finding it pretty ridiculous that darth has so much to pointlessly trample out of so little an extract. 

 

Very much of the opinion as a silent observer of this thread up to now that he is simply trolling. He may put things across in a 'smart' way but it is still needlessly antagonistic to so many people here as well as the author himself (which is startling considering its the author. and the most respected one at that) - Trolling or possesses some unfortunate ailment of the mind.

 

But Valdor says the laundry list of crimes basically didn't matter to the Emperor. That the reason she was given a death sentence was putting her hand in Emperor's cookie jar. This is perfectly OK if you your view of the Emperor is the Last Tyrant of Terra.

 

Well, it's also perfectly okay if you know about the Unification Wars, how Terra worked (disloyalty to the Emperor on Terra is a big deal in 'Blood Games' for example and far from unprecedented), and pay heed to how history's greatest warlords and most renowned/popular leaders behaved.

 

There's a world of difference between putting your hand in the Emperor's cookie jar and stealing water on a planet that has suffered nuclear winter beyond anything we can imagine and where water is an incredibly precious resource, now suffering under an additional and impossibly huge pressure of billions of galactic refugees/pilgrims. This is all literally in the text; maybe those other crimes aren't an issue is because - as Valdor says - they're not a threat and practically beneath notice. And it's easy to infer they'd be beneath the notice of the Emperor given, well, all of the things on his mind. 

 

"I hate the Emperor and I'm raising a little army." Whatever. There's a lot going on, and that's evidently not much of a threat. One Custodian could, and indeed does, end it. What does that tell you?

 

"I'm stealing water from a planet dying of thirst and the millions of refugees and pilgrims rocking up at the Palace." No, sorry, you die. You die now.

 

It's not that I don't understand Darth's point. It's that it's farcically devoid of context. He's not trolling. He's just wrong - in context. Nothing in the above implies incompetence or weakness in a leader - it' implies the Imperium, even on Terra, is a thing of impossibly huge proportions and complexity with a bajillion things going on at once - and that the Custodians are concerned primarily with loyalty to the Emperor. These are the kinds of crimes they deal with, not the Emperor's armies. And this one was only minor... until it wasn't. Then it was ended at once.

 

I mean... this is all in there. You have to try hard to see anything else.

 

Leaders, good and bad, will always have rebellions, disloyalty, or the threat of unrest. Saying that the fact there are uprisings (or attempted uprisings) is a sign of poor leadership is far beyond naivety and neck-deep into nonsense. Humans are proud. Their ambitions are their own. They have their own plans and drives that don't always align with their lords' and leaders'. They get bribed. They get deceived. They don't see things the same way as each other all the time. We've even seen it before in this very context and setting - not just in Blood Games, but in, well, the fact half of the Imperium is currently rebelling against the Emperor. In what way is that me and me alone making the Emperor look incompetent, as originally claimed? Why, if the Emperor should be above such things and a perfect leader, is half of his empire trying to overthrow him?

 

I think I've devoted enough time to this one, thanks. 

 

EDIT: Need to add that I'm mega pressed for time lately, so my apologies if I'm coming across as terser than usual. I'm stealing forum time on breaks, and there's not a lot of wiggle room.

[b1soul]

His point, if I may be bold, is that water shouldn't be the tipping point, and that the other crimes should matter.

There is nothing wrong with that position.

I agree...ADB and Darth are equally entitled to their views

 

My fundamental assumption is this: When on this board, ADB is just another poster whose views may be challenged with civility.

 

Am I happy that ADB participates on this board? Of course!

 

...but I don't thank the heavens that almighty ADB has deigned to spend some of his precious time on this board. I don't believe we need to coddle the feelings of BL authours who choose to participate on this board or to brand dissenting views as nonsense or trolling.

 

That attitude would frankly be quite pathetic in my view...and would be anathema to free discussion.

 

If Darth expresses his views with civility, he is doing nothing wrong...even if his views are flawed.

 

As far as I can tell, Darth has shown ADB about the same degree of civility ADB has shown him.

[The Red Thirst]

 

EDIT: Need to add that I'm mega pressed for time lately, so my apologies if I'm coming across as terser than usual. I'm stealing forum time on breaks, and there's not a lot of wiggle room.

 

Takes breaks from typing awesome :cuss we love reading, just to type more on forums and schooling us on the :cuss we love reading...

 

The hero we need, but not the one we deserve.

[mc warhammer]

 

His point, if I may be bold, is that water shouldn't be the tipping point, and that the other crimes should matter.

There is nothing wrong with that position.

I agree...ADB and Darth are equally entitled to their views

 

My fundamental assumption is this: When on this board, ADB is just another poster whose views may be challenged with civility.

 

Am I happy that ADB participates on this board? Of course!

 

...but I don't thank the heavens that almighty ADB has deigned to spend some of his precious time on this board. I don't believe we need to coddle the feelings of BL authours who choose to participate on this board or to brand dissenting views as nonsense or trolling.

 

That attitude would frankly be quite pathetic in my view...and would be anathema to free discussion.

 

If Darth expresses his views with civility, he is doing nothing wrong...even if his views are flawed.

 

As far as I can tell, Darth has shown ADB about the same degree of civility ADB has shown him.

 

 

 

does anyone thank the heavens for adb's presence? it's a funny image if nothing else.

 

yes, adb's viewpoints can be challenged within reason, but that doesn't mean it's a level playing field. experts and professionals do matter and carry weight.  the same way that a mechanic on a car forum or a chef on a cooking forum. there's nothing more amusing/ disappointing than watching people on facebook tell doctors that vaccinations cause autism.

[b1soul]

there's nothing more amusing/ disappointing than watching people on facebook tell doctors that vaccinations cause autism.

I would argue that "reader : authour of fantasy fiction" is not analogous to "layman : surgeon or doctor"

 

That said, ADB's opinion could very well hold more weight (he is the authour after all)...it still boils down to whether Darth has been disagreeing in a civil manner.

 

I think he has. He is entitled to speak his mind...even if he is wrong. In this case, I think he has a point but I disagree with his conclusion. I think the elimination of Zu is a very minor item on the E's agenda.

 

We should judge the E's competence based on how he handles major decisions.

[mc warhammer]

 

there's nothing more amusing/ disappointing than watching people on facebook tell doctors that vaccinations cause autism.

I would argue that "reader : authour of fantasy fiction" is not analogous to "layman : surgeon or doctor"

 

That said, ADB's opinion could very well hold more weight (he is the authour after all)...it still boils down to whether Darth has been disagreeing in a civil manner.

 

I think he has. He is entitled to speak his mind...even if he is wrong. In this case, I think he has a point but I disagree with his conclusion. I think the elimination of Zu is a very minor item on the E's agenda.

 

We should judge the E's competence based on how he handles major decisions.

 

 

in the pre internet age i might have been inclined to agree with you regarding the comparison of hard tech/science/medical experts to creative professionals, but i've seen too laypeople who  believe everything is open to interpretation and that interpretation usually just means ironclad and uninformed opinion.

 

for what it's worth i don't think darth is trolling either, but i do believe his reading of the text limited and/or informed by the general troll power of the internet. all conjecture on my part, of course. 

[Augustus]

It is a great thing to have an author give further clarification to their works. But it has some negative aspects as well.

Like now, for instance I want to ask AD-B why he directed his response at my comment. But unfortunately, I cannot.

 

edit

For clarification: When I said "put your hand in the Emperor's cookie jar" I wasn't belittling the effect the Age of Strife had on Earth. In fact it was in support of it. As AD-B said. The water on Terra belongs to the Emperor. Taking it affects the Emperor and the Imperium on a grand scale. Small time cloning genocide and what not wouldn't affect the Emperor and his plans in the least. That's why the Last Thuderwarrior was able to run a crime syndicate. Goes back to what I previously said that the Emperor must be portrayed as ultimately having humanity's best interest in mind. If he doesn't and is ultimately only the most powerful Tyrant left on Terra it diminishes the grim-dark--ness of it all.

 

edit2

I just noticed a parallel of the Emperor letting potential problems brew and Guillimen in Angel's of Caliban.

[Sete]

People here discussing the leadership abilities of the Emperor and I'm just here thinking how human can he be if he actually does not even need to breathe?

[A D-B]

It is a great thing to have an author give further clarification to their works. But it has some negative aspects as well.

Like now, for instance I want to ask AD-B why he directed his response at my comment. But unfortunately, I cannot.

 

Because AD-B is a goon who was awkwardly trying to fit a forum reply and a round of Warsong Gulch into the same tea break. Many apologies, dude!

[A D-B]

 

His point, if I may be bold, is that water shouldn't be the tipping point, and that the other crimes should matter.

There is nothing wrong with that position.

I agree...ADB and Darth are equally entitled to their views

 

My fundamental assumption is this: When on this board, ADB is just another poster whose views may be challenged with civility.

 

Am I happy that ADB participates on this board? Of course!

 

...but I don't thank the heavens that almighty ADB has deigned to spend some of his precious time on this board. I don't believe we need to coddle the feelings of BL authours who choose to participate on this board or to brand dissenting views as nonsense or trolling.

 

That attitude would frankly be quite pathetic in my view...and would be anathema to free discussion.

 

If Darth expresses his views with civility, he is doing nothing wrong...even if his views are flawed.

 

 

I think that's everyone's assumption, isn't it? Or their reality, or whatever. There's plenty of civil (and uncivil) criticism, mistaken beliefs, and opinions I reply to directly about my work, and that's all good. There's a much wider body of discussion about my work, negative or positive, that I never touch at all for an arsenal of reasons - usually so as not to kill speculation about interpretations or because I recognise an argument where reason won't overcome bias.

 

I can totally be challenged. At the same time, exasperation is a fair reaction depending on the nature of that challenge. Not all criticisms are equal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

there's nothing more amusing/ disappointing than watching people on facebook tell doctors that vaccinations cause autism.

I would argue that "reader : authour of fantasy fiction" is not analogous to "layman : surgeon or doctor"

 

That said, ADB's opinion could very well hold more weight (he is the authour after all)...it still boils down to whether Darth has been disagreeing in a civil manner.

 

I think he has. He is entitled to speak his mind...even if he is wrong. In this case, I think he has a point but I disagree with his conclusion. I think the elimination of Zu is a very minor item on the E's agenda.

 

We should judge the E's competence based on how he handles major decisions.

 

 

in the pre internet age i might have been inclined to agree with you regarding the comparison of hard tech/science/medical experts to creative professionals, but i've seen too laypeople who  believe everything is open to interpretation and that interpretation usually just means ironclad and uninformed opinion.

 

I'm not certain that applies here (sometimes people are just wrong or right) but yeah, you ask any game designer, author, musician, etc. and you'll see their eyes darken in weariness from that attitude. It's the principal reason most creative career types don't engage online. People mistake their capacity to voice an opinion with a dissenting side of worth in an argument. "Well that's just my opinion" has become an ironclad defence in a post-fact world. It's bizarre, but it is what it is, as I'm sure you know.

 

Though Darth's totes not doing that, as everyone's noted.

 

 

The Imperium isn't like the Galactic Empire in Star Wars where he's at the top, and it's governed by a massive unified bureaucracy and military, it's almost feudal or a confederation. The emperor is sovereign of sovereigns, but those other rulers still control the monopoly of violence in their realm. This is illustrated in every novel about Terra and extrapolated in Betrayal. So this ladies pogroms were more than likely entirely sanctioned and legal by the laws of her own land. Coalitions have to allow for a little give and take on sovereignty or they fall apart.

 

In a thread with some awesome descriptions and understandings of Terra's delicious post-anarchic amped-up feudalism, that was especially beautiful. 

[Augustus]

Thanks(for coming back to the thread)! Was bit surprised since (I thought) I was agreeing with the portrayal of the Big E in this extract and in your works thats I've read; furthermore your knowledge of the lore is second to none.

Well, maybe Legatus.

It is amazing that this thread has 16 pages and the book isn't even out yet!

[Canadian_F_H]

From what I've heard on these forums about ADB's work and his participation in the forum, the page length isn't a surprise at all.

[Mellow]

Some writers hide away from their readers. Fortunately He doesn't.

[HeritorA]

And that's the reason A D-B is one of the best in BL. His participation in discussion is always a welcome sight

I think if the Siege of Terra should be planned out - it should start with John French (Lunar bases and a road to Terra), continue with orbital dominance and first drop done by Chris Wraight; landing and road to Imperial Palace done by McNeil; storming the palace and further niceties totally written by A D-B and finally teleportation to Vengeful spirit and shenangians that follows done by Dan Abnett (he started it all - he finishes it all )

[Scribe]

Eh, I only trust ADB, Wraight, and French with ending the story. Dan has a strength for world building, let him start the siege and not go off the reservation...

[DarkChaplain]

Abnett also started Eisenhorn and Gaunt's Ghosts, and I doubt he'll finish those anytime soon. Maybe I'm jaded at this point but with Dan's absence from BL and the dubious quality of his last works, I'm apprehensive of him getting to put the lid on the series. It'll have to wrap up a LOT of subplots, from other authors, which is not something I think he is particularly good at. He is best when he starts something, gives the tone and defines things for the first time. He is good within his own overall workings.

But those things won't be enough for the finale. It requires an awareness of all that has come before, and a dire need to put your own plot shenanigans behind the greater needs of the story and make ends meet. I'm certain Dan will be involved in the end somehow, otherwise we wouldn't have Ollanius back, but thinking about the finale being heavily driven by perpetuals gives me shivers.

[ZebraM]

I doubt it'll wrap up all the sub plots. Some will obviously be left running for post-heresy books that will most likely come out after the series has finished.

[Mellow]

One would hope that the creators of the series have already at the very least bullet pointed (lots of them) their way through the siege story line.

 

Perhaps the whole "seeing a perpetual get killed permanently" is the thing that drives The Emperor to use his "Mind-Bullet" on Horus. Y'know, seeing as he's probably a perpetual himself and wouldn't want his Grand Plan to be thwarted by his naughty favoured Son.

[Zeratil]

 

but the crimes did matter. it is simply that the one that our minister friend is being executed for specifically is the crime of stealing water.

 

way too much emphasis being put on this tbfh. And i'm finding it pretty ridiculous that darth has so much to pointlessly trample out of so little an extract. 

 

Very much of the opinion as a silent observer of this thread up to now that he is simply trolling. He may put things across in a 'smart' way but it is still needlessly antagonistic to so many people here as well as the author himself (which is startling considering its the author. and the most respected one at that) - Trolling or possesses some unfortunate ailment of the mind.

 

But Valdor says the laundry list of crimes basically didn't matter to the Emperor. That the reason she was given a death sentence was putting her hand in Emperor's cookie jar. This is perfectly OK if you your view of the Emperor is the Last Tyrant of Terra.

 

Darth, I believe, is saying this is a poor quality of a leader. A leader that he finds hard to believe billions would fight for.

 

 I really enjoyed the extract, but to my reading Valdor was saying her other crimes didn't matter to the Emperor personally or weren't worthy of his attention, whereas this one did. Obviously the Emperor himself isn't going to personally task his elite forces to deal with individual instances of sedition or rebellion unless they're very far along, that doesn't mean that there aren't authorities who deal with such matters in their own time and their own way. . A not-exact analogy I would draw would be that if GCHQ find out your torrenting Game of Thrones while investigating whether or not you're planning to hack a nuclear plant, they're not going to care about the torrenting. Scale that sort of idea up to a planetary scale with an Imperial ruler and you get this sort of situation. 

[ZebraM]

One would hope that the creators of the series have already at the very least bullet pointed (lots of them) their way through the siege story line.

 

Perhaps the whole "seeing a perpetual get killed permanently" is the thing that drives The Emperor to use his "Mind-Bullet" on Horus. Y'know, seeing as he's probably a perpetual himself and wouldn't want his Grand Plan to be thwarted by his naughty favoured Son.

I thought it'd be more about seeing a perpetual willingly gave his life up, knowing he won't come back to life, that spurs the Emperor into killing Horus.

[Canadian_F_H]

To me it's more like the al copone thing. THEY nailed hI'm for tax evasion on all the money he shouldn't have had because it wasn't earned legally. It's all they could pin on him.

 

Here. Water theft was a terminal offence and proven. Anything else would have been redundant. ..now the imperium of the 41st millenium may vary well carry out multiple deathsentances to satisfy the beurocrats...

[HeritorA]

Abnett also started Eisenhorn and Gaunt's Ghosts, and I doubt he'll finish those anytime soon. Maybe I'm jaded at this point but with Dan's absence from BL and the dubious quality of his last works, I'm apprehensive of him getting to put the lid on the series. It'll have to wrap up a LOT of subplots, from other authors, which is not something I think he is particularly good at. He is best when he starts something, gives the tone and defines things for the first time. He is good within his own overall workings.

But those things won't be enough for the finale. It requires an awareness of all that has come before, and a dire need to put your own plot shenanigans behind the greater needs of the story and make ends meet. I'm certain Dan will be involved in the end somehow, otherwise we wouldn't have Ollanius back, but thinking about the finale being heavily driven by perpetuals gives me shivers.

True - but he started it with Horus Rising - so would be good to receive an ending by him :)