Master of Mankind...on the horizon?

[Mellow]

There are some sentences that shouldn't be constructed. Such as "so would be good to receive an ending by him"

 

:o

[Jareddm]

Abnett doesn't do endings.  Never has.  Probably never will.

[grailkeeper]

Hmm I took the execution scene as happening pre heresy, significantly pre heresy- as if her son might grow into an important character later. But from this threat I take it that it happened "now" during the heresy.

[Augustus]

 

 

but the crimes did matter. it is simply that the one that our minister friend is being executed for specifically is the crime of stealing water.

 

way too much emphasis being put on this tbfh. And i'm finding it pretty ridiculous that darth has so much to pointlessly trample out of so little an extract. 

 

Very much of the opinion as a silent observer of this thread up to now that he is simply trolling. He may put things across in a 'smart' way but it is still needlessly antagonistic to so many people here as well as the author himself (which is startling considering its the author. and the most respected one at that) - Trolling or possesses some unfortunate ailment of the mind.

 

But Valdor says the laundry list of crimes basically didn't matter to the Emperor. That the reason she was given a death sentence was putting her hand in Emperor's cookie jar. This is perfectly OK if you your view of the Emperor is the Last Tyrant of Terra.

 

Darth, I believe, is saying this is a poor quality of a leader. A leader that he finds hard to believe billions would fight for.

 

 I really enjoyed the extract, but to my reading Valdor was saying her other crimes didn't matter to the Emperor personally or weren't worthy of his attention, whereas this one did. Obviously the Emperor himself isn't going to personally task his elite forces to deal with individual instances of sedition or rebellion unless they're very far along, that doesn't mean that there aren't authorities who deal with such matters in their own time and their own way. . A not-exact analogy I would draw would be that if GCHQ find out your torrenting Game of Thrones while investigating whether or not you're planning to hack a nuclear plant, they're not going to care about the torrenting. Scale that sort of idea up to a planetary scale with an Imperial ruler and you get this sort of situation. 

 

 

That's exactly how I interpreted it too. Nobody seems to understand meeeeee :(

 

:D I'll try to work on writing my thoughts out a bit better. Sometimes I write what is in my head but I also tend to leave a lot out.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

in the pre internet age i might have been inclined to agree with you regarding the comparison of hard tech/science/medical experts to creative professionals, but i've seen too laypeople who  believe everything is open to interpretation and that interpretation usually just means ironclad and uninformed opinion.

 

I'm not certain that applies here (sometimes people are just wrong or right) but yeah, you ask any game designer, author, musician, etc. and you'll see their eyes darken in weariness from that attitude. It's the principal reason most creative career types don't engage online. People mistake their capacity to voice an opinion with a dissenting side of worth in an argument. "Well that's just my opinion" has become an ironclad defence in a post-fact world. It's bizarre, but it is what it is, as I'm sure you know.

 

yeah, i want to be clear ; that was a tangent and darth's opinion is not wholly uninformed- he has clearly read the same material that everyone else has.

 

my tangent was inspired/enraged by what i see as a pattern (here's hoping i don't tend towards apophenia) in almost any online discussion. at first i thought it was only fan forums, but i've come to believe that anywhere there is discussion, about anything, there will be people championing exactly what you describe: having an opinion without looking to form one.

 

and i'm sure you've experienced the "backfire effect" firsthand more often than i have; that funny psychological thingo where if someone's convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, their beliefs only get stronger. once people form a belief, they tend to protect it like a bear does her cubs (unless the bear is hungry...in which case she eats the cub. anyway).

[HeritorA]

There are some sentences that shouldn't be constructed. Such as "so would be good to receive an ending by him"

Ty for the grammar correction ;)

Abnett doesn't do endings. Never has. Probably never will.

That's his fetish :)

[Zeratil]

in the pre internet age i might have been inclined to agree with you regarding the comparison of hard tech/science/medical experts to creative professionals, but i've seen too laypeople who believe everything is open to interpretation and that interpretation usually just means ironclad and uninformed opinion.

I'm not certain that applies here (sometimes people are just wrong or right) but yeah, you ask any game designer, author, musician, etc. and you'll see their eyes darken in weariness from that attitude. It's the principal reason most creative career types don't engage online. People mistake their capacity to voice an opinion with a dissenting side of worth in an argument. "Well that's just my opinion" has become an ironclad defence in a post-fact world. It's bizarre, but it is what it is, as I'm sure you know.

yeah, i want to be clear ; that was a tangent and darth's opinion is not wholly uninformed- he has clearly read the same material that everyone else has.

my tangent was inspired/enraged by what i see as a pattern (here's hoping i don't tend towards apophenia) in almost any online discussion. at first i thought it was only fan forums, but i've come to believe that anywhere there is discussion, about anything, there will be people championing exactly what you describe: having an opinion without looking to form one.

and i'm sure you've experienced the "backfire effect" firsthand more often than i have; that funny psychological thingo where if someone's convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, their beliefs only get stronger. once people form a belief, they tend to protect it like a bear does her cubs (unless the bear is hungry...in which case she eats the cub. anyway).

In some ways though the problem is that Darth, and almost everyone except Aaron, is underinformed. We only read, and thus interpret, the material that is published for us. We don't see whatever research, notes, appendices and other material that the author of this story - or any other story - has created or used. There's a good reason for that of course, if there was a reference for every such point saying 'Hi I'm Aaron and what Valdor means here is that the Emperor don't give a about treason because it's pancake day in the Imperial Palace and bitch needs his Golden Syrup' it would be an unfeasibly long book - aaaand most likely very dull when all was said and done. However that's always going to mean that there are multiple interpretations of the same passage, think back to the hours we all spent in some variation of English Literature learning about what *insert culturally appropriate author here* (Shakespeare) might have meant when they wrote this or that passage*.

Obviously the author/game designer/director/robot has more context for any given passage than the reader, and when understanding those points in context is critical to the plot it will be laid out in more detail, but lots of other points won't be. They're not important enough, explanation would ruin the flow of the text and the story or even a simple case of running over the word limit. In this sense at least not all opinions are equal, but there is another side in that the greater context just isn't available to everyone and without it people are going to draw their own conclusions and interpretations. Hell, if the author wrote that section while drowning in a caffeinated sugar rush made of Haribo and tea *they* might not even remember it. I think that many authors forget this when arguements like this pop up, they argue from a position of relative strength, but much of the force behind that strength is hidden from the reader's view. Without that material being presented I find it difficult to agree with something as ironclad as 'sorry you're just wrong'.

*Reading through the extract again I came up with an example!

'Does He even breathe?' she demanded. 'Tell me that Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out its box, now running rampant.' Valdor blinked once. The first time she'd seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was unnerving - to her it left false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.

So, why does Valdor blink? The most obvious explanation to my eye is that he honestly never though about whether or not the Emperor breathed and for a split second he wonders about it, before dismissing the thought and returning to the matter at hand (shown by his next sentence). However that's a lot to read into a single sentence, and I'm quite possibly completely wrong about Aaron's intent. Maybe Valdor blinks because he considers this line of reasoning so absurd as to be ludicrous, also leading him to get on with the business at hand. Maybe Valdor is expressing surprise that Minister Zhu has focused on such a simple thing, we don't know if Zhu has ever met the Emperor (although it seems unlikely) and tried to discern such information for herself, but if she has then that makes that explanation more credible. If sure people can come up with plenty of other explanations, especially once we read the rest of the book, but the moment, while worthy of elucidation, is not important enough to warrant detailing of exact meanings and nuance. Of course, whatever the author's intent behind the sentence it's interpretation has been left deliberately up to the reader even if that is by omission.

[Mellow]

I took it that him blinking was a sign that he hadn't heard anyone openly criticise The Emperor and was rather offended to the point of restraining himself not to killing her in that second.

[Marshal Rohr]

the simplest answer is usually best, i.e. His eyes were dry. Alternatively, she's onto something and it startled him.

[Zeratil]

the simplest answer is usually best, i.e. His eyes were dry. Alternatively, she's onto something and it startled him.

Dammit Occum. Interesting point, can astartes get/be bothered by dry eyes? Now there's a point that clearly needs BL's attention.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor being a leftover weapon from the dark age would be a very cool angle that will never be elaborated on. I love it when realistic explanations get mixed up in the long history of 40k to become myths and legends. Some kind of Khan-esque super human created from mankinds earliest scientific studies of the warp. Imagine how sick that would be if some random scavenger team finds a stasis casket with the emperor's body and accidentally unlocks it.

 

Basically the Emperor's life is Fallout 4 of the minutemen quests actually changed the game world.

[Sete]

But does he breathe?

[Mellow]

I would guess that her statement of "Dark Age" doesn't refer to the DAoT or the Dark Ages but rather a generic term for "a long time ago".

 

Interesting to refer to him as a weapon. That would mean He was made. Which would be awesome at the same time as bad. Mainly because that would mean someone more intelligent created him (only obvious candidates would be Chaos Gods or Old Ones)

[Grand Master Laertes]

I would guess that her statement of "Dark Age" doesn't refer to the DAoT or the Dark Ages but rather a generic term for "a long time ago".

 

Interesting to refer to him as a weapon. That would mean He was made. Which would be awesome at the same time as bad. Mainly because that would mean someone more intelligent created him (only obvious candidates would be Chaos Gods or Old Ones)

Other suitable candidates are the ancient shamans of earth (as per the oldest incarnation of the background, in the Realm of Chaos books)

[Mellow]

Unfortunately I doubt that that will ever be confirmed in the HH series.

 

It would be nice to know for sure but the people in charge aren't that nice :)

[DarKnight]

The Emperor being a leftover weapon from the dark age would be a very cool angle that will never be elaborated on. I love it when realistic explanations get mixed up in the long history of 40k to become myths and legends. Some kind of Khan-esque super human created from mankinds earliest scientific studies of the warp. Imagine how sick that would be if some random scavenger team finds a stasis casket with the emperor's body and accidentally unlocks it.

 

Basically the Emperor's life is Fallout 4 of the minutemen quests actually changed the game world.

I love this sort of in-universe speculation, but here we are years and endless posts later and some people still think the Ultramarines absorbed the two lost legions SMMFH

[Rob P]

I kinda like Oll's view that The Emperor was just a really ambitious perpetual, but I don't like the idea that he tricked the gods on Molech.

 

If Master of Mankind confirms the former or casts doubt on the latter, i'll be more than happy.

[Sete]

The Emperor knows the warp gods can't be trusted. I seriously doubt he made a deal with them.

[Scribe]

Oh I think he did. Trust is nothing, both sides knew they would come to conflict.

 

I would die for a Shaman reference. Bring back the Roc fluff!

[Grand Master Laertes]

I kinda like Oll's view that The Emperor was just a really ambitious perpetual, but I don't like the idea that he tricked the gods on Molech.

 

If Master of Mankind confirms the former or casts doubt on the latter, i'll be more than happy.

 

 

Why not? Almost all the mythologies of the real world have stories of heroes/saints bargaining with the devil and then tricking him.

[mc warhammer]

in the pre internet age i might have been inclined to agree with you regarding the comparison of hard tech/science/medical experts to creative professionals, but i've seen too laypeople who believe everything is open to interpretation and that interpretation usually just means ironclad and uninformed opinion.

I'm not certain that applies here (sometimes people are just wrong or right) but yeah, you ask any game designer, author, musician, etc. and you'll see their eyes darken in weariness from that attitude. It's the principal reason most creative career types don't engage online. People mistake their capacity to voice an opinion with a dissenting side of worth in an argument. "Well that's just my opinion" has become an ironclad defence in a post-fact world. It's bizarre, but it is what it is, as I'm sure you know.

yeah, i want to be clear ; that was a tangent and darth's opinion is not wholly uninformed- he has clearly read the same material that everyone else has.

my tangent was inspired/enraged by what i see as a pattern (here's hoping i don't tend towards apophenia) in almost any online discussion. at first i thought it was only fan forums, but i've come to believe that anywhere there is discussion, about anything, there will be people championing exactly what you describe: having an opinion without looking to form one.

and i'm sure you've experienced the "backfire effect" firsthand more often than i have; that funny psychological thingo where if someone's convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, their beliefs only get stronger. once people form a belief, they tend to protect it like a bear does her cubs (unless the bear is hungry...in which case she eats the cub. anyway).

In some ways though the problem is that Darth, and almost everyone except Aaron, is underinformed. We only read, and thus interpret, the material that is published for us. We don't see whatever research, notes, appendices and other material that the author of this story - or any other story - has created or used. There's a good reason for that of course, if there was a reference for every such point saying 'Hi I'm Aaron and what Valdor means here is that the Emperor don't give a about treason because it's pancake day in the Imperial Palace and bitch needs his Golden Syrup' it would be an unfeasibly long book - aaaand most likely very dull when all was said and done. However that's always going to mean that there are multiple interpretations of the same passage, think back to the hours we all spent in some variation of English Literature learning about what *insert culturally appropriate author here* (Shakespeare) might have meant when they wrote this or that passage*.

Obviously the author/game designer/director/robot has more context for any given passage than the reader, and when understanding those points in context is critical to the plot it will be laid out in more detail, but lots of other points won't be. They're not important enough, explanation would ruin the flow of the text and the story or even a simple case of running over the word limit. In this sense at least not all opinions are equal, but there is another side in that the greater context just isn't available to everyone and without it people are going to draw their own conclusions and interpretations. Hell, if the author wrote that section while drowning in a caffeinated sugar rush made of Haribo and tea *they* might not even remember it. I think that many authors forget this when arguements like this pop up, they argue from a position of relative strength, but much of the force behind that strength is hidden from the reader's view. Without that material being presented I find it difficult to agree with something as ironclad as 'sorry you're just wrong'.

*Reading through the extract again I came up with an example!

'Does He even breathe?' she demanded. 'Tell me that Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out its box, now running rampant.' Valdor blinked once. The first time she'd seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was unnerving - to her it left false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.

So, why does Valdor blink? The most obvious explanation to my eye is that he honestly never though about whether or not the Emperor breathed and for a split second he wonders about it, before dismissing the thought and returning to the matter at hand (shown by his next sentence). However that's a lot to read into a single sentence, and I'm quite possibly completely wrong about Aaron's intent. Maybe Valdor blinks because he considers this line of reasoning so absurd as to be ludicrous, also leading him to get on with the business at hand. Maybe Valdor is expressing surprise that Minister Zhu has focused on such a simple thing, we don't know if Zhu has ever met the Emperor (although it seems unlikely) and tried to discern such information for herself, but if she has then that makes that explanation more credible. If sure people can come up with plenty of other explanations, especially once we read the rest of the book, but the moment, while worthy of elucidation, is not important enough to warrant detailing of exact meanings and nuance. Of course, whatever the author's intent behind the sentence it's interpretation has been left deliberately up to the reader even if that is by omission.

essentially a post modernist reading and a take on "death of the author". i dig, and i agree.

but it's not a free for all.

what i'm more concerned with is opinion formed without context or that deliberately omits context. more often than not, it's also closed off to any new application of context. any personal interpretation is valid when it can be backed up by the text.

the sort of context that is informed by other's opinions or memes or message boards or a funny feeling in their pants rather than the text itself is the kind that causes my eyes to roll back into my head.

[bluntblade]

 

I kinda like Oll's view that The Emperor was just a really ambitious perpetual, but I don't like the idea that he tricked the gods on Molech.

 

If Master of Mankind confirms the former or casts doubt on the latter, i'll be more than happy.

 

 

 

Why not? Almost all the mythologies of the real world have stories of heroes/saints bargaining with the devil and then tricking him.

It just doesn't seem right to me.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

I kinda like Oll's view that The Emperor was just a really ambitious perpetual, but I don't like the idea that he tricked the gods on Molech.

 

If Master of Mankind confirms the former or casts doubt on the latter, i'll be more than happy.

 

 

Why not? Almost all the mythologies of the real world have stories of heroes/saints bargaining with the devil and then tricking him.

It just doesn't seem right to me.

 

 

[bluntblade]

I've internally reconned it to Horus entering some kind of Tzeentch's House of Illusory Revelations (and used that in AU Heresy story).

 

At least we now have Eldritch Abomination mode Horus to entertain us.

[Mellow]

Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC.

 

I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there.