HeritorA Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC. I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there. He stole/won the powers to create Primarchs. It was directly stated by Horus. And Gods of Chaos has no reasons to lie, then it's the truth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4557992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Gods of Chaos have no reason to lie. Understatement of the year ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC. I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there. He stole/won the powers to create Primarchs. It was directly stated by Horus. And Gods of Chaos has no reasons to lie, then it's the truth Directly stated by the Chaos Gods' most famous complete and total dupe. This is the danger in taking anything at this level of the lore at 100% face value (especially when it's never written that way), because then anything that contradicts it or doesn't mention it is considered wrong. The Emperor making a deal with the Chaos Gods is one of those "Lost Legions" kinds of things. I don't know anyone that "knows" it's true. Or what the point of the deal would really be, to what benefit, etc. It's possible, sure, but I know various folks in power that believe it's true and others that believe it's nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 FWIW, in the original, first telling of the story of the creation of the Primarchs (found in the 'Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned' on page 177) it is described that "the energy of the uncorrupted warp" would flow through the Primarchs, and that the Emperor made a substantial effort to shield the project from the view of the Chaos Gods, but that they managed to learn of it nonetheless. So that pretty much had ruled out any involvement of Chaos powers in the creation of the Primarchs. But that was 1st Edition. A lot had changed with the release of 2nd Edition already. And never again would the actions of the Emperor be described in that much detail as in that old material. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC. I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there. He stole/won the powers to create Primarchs. It was directly stated by Horus. And Gods of Chaos has no reasons to lie, then it's the truth Directly stated by the Chaos Gods' most famous complete and total dupe. This is the danger in taking anything at this level of the lore at 100% face value (especially when it's never written that way), because then anything that contradicts it or doesn't mention it is considered wrong. The Emperor making a deal with the Chaos Gods is one of those "Lost Legions" kinds of things. I don't know anyone that "knows" it's true. Or what the point of the deal would really be, to what benefit, etc. It's possible, sure, but I know various folks in power that believe it's true and others that believe it's nonsense. And in what do you believe? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 You can't ask him that! If he knew and was allowed to tell anyone then he would have to write a book about The Emperor. Which would never happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I think it makes a lot of sense that he would bargain with the Gods. Without the Primarchs, the Crusade doesnt happen, stalls out or fails. The Chaos Gods know his goal, but also 'know' that they can turn some of these Primarchs, leading to a state of perpetual war and suffering (aka 40K) Both sides think they can outsmart the other, and both get what they wanted. I NEED THIS BOOK IN MY LIFE. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 If they ever told the story of why he went there and what he did and whether a bargain was struck then it would probably be not as amazing as fan theories and wouldn't please everyone. Just like telling the stories of the lost legions. Nothing could really do the myth justice at this point. (I think anyway) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC. I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there. He stole/won the powers to create Primarchs. It was directly stated by Horus. And Gods of Chaos has no reasons to lie, then it's the truth Directly stated by the Chaos Gods' most famous complete and total dupe. This is the danger in taking anything at this level of the lore at 100% face value (especially when it's never written that way), because then anything that contradicts it or doesn't mention it is considered wrong. The Emperor making a deal with the Chaos Gods is one of those "Lost Legions" kinds of things. I don't know anyone that "knows" it's true. Or what the point of the deal would really be, to what benefit, etc. It's possible, sure, but I know various folks in power that believe it's true and others that believe it's nonsense. And in what do you believe? Like pretty much everything I believe, in and out of 40K, I tend not to mention it very much. Or, if possible, at all. I think it makes a lot of sense that he would bargain with the Gods. Without the Primarchs, the Crusade doesnt happen, stalls out or fails. The Chaos Gods know his goal, but also 'know' that they can turn some of these Primarchs, leading to a state of perpetual war and suffering (aka 40K) Both sides think they can outsmart the other, and both get what they wanted. I NEED THIS BOOK IN MY LIFE. Teehee! Though, just to be clear, this is a Lost Legions kind of thing where there is no answer, so there isn't one waiting in TMoM. The whole "The Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods" thing is one of those things that has the scarcest mentions (at best) in the lore, with nothing ever specific or definitive, but is latched onto by some readers as crucial and in need of elucidation. It hasn't come up in any of the HH meetings I've been to, or any conversations about the Emperor, so that should indicate how little it matters in the scheme of things. It's likely to always be one of those "kernel of truth" things, unless someone decides to invent an answer. And if and when they do, I suspect it'd suffer like the Lost Legions - some things are better as possibilities and mysteries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I like how it was alluded to in The First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit but, as always, can you trust the narrator? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Thats ok ADB, I wont hold you to that one I know this isnt a tell all on who/what/why for The Emperor. :] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I knew I wasn't getting an answer but worth a shot. Well I know the day I'm buying the book (digital edition) I will be visiting the Templar Castle in Portugal. I reckon ADB has some pictures of the place. Awesome spot to be reading about the Master of Mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I kinda like Oll's view that The Emperor was just a really ambitious perpetual, but I don't like the idea that he tricked the gods on Molech. If Master of Mankind confirms the former or casts doubt on the latter, i'll be more than happy. Why not? Almost all the mythologies of the real world have stories of heroes/saints bargaining with the devil and then tricking him. I found it a more interesting story if Horus was fooled, whether into thinking he could win or that that their was deceit by the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Well He went to Molech because ultimately He wanted something or wanted to do something in the RoC. I wish it would be explained or at least hinted at what He did there. He stole/won the powers to create Primarchs. It was directly stated by Horus. And Gods of Chaos has no reasons to lie, then it's the truth Directly stated by the Chaos Gods' most famous complete and total dupe. This is the danger in taking anything at this level of the lore at 100% face value (especially when it's never written that way), because then anything that contradicts it or doesn't mention it is considered wrong. The Emperor making a deal with the Chaos Gods is one of those "Lost Legions" kinds of things. I don't know anyone that "knows" it's true. Or what the point of the deal would really be, to what benefit, etc. It's possible, sure, but I know various folks in power that believe it's true and others that believe it's nonsense. I find that the Warhammer universe honestly makes way more sense if you trust neither sides of the story and just put your own spin on it using both. You'll get closer to the real answers, in so much as loose canon can have a 'real' answer, then you will just buying whatever Chaos or the Imperium is selling. Personally the whole idea of making a 'deal' with the themselves Chaos Gods always tasted sour to me, like these Eldritch Horrors were sitting on Molch in business suits waiting to sell Faustian pacts to whatever poor sucker would listen. But the Chaos Gods are so much more then even Lovecraft, they are the abstraction of ten thousand years of good, bad, and ugly emotions from one of the most hellish IP's in existence consolidated into a barely comprehensible entity with a loose collection of portfolios that all bleed into each other. Daemonettes, Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, and Horrors are just it's purest manifestations used as footsoldiers without factoring in the billions of other forms they can take. They don't make 'deals' because the Chaos Gods are such immense entities that I doubt anything, even a Primarch could even understand what they were looking at if they truly manifested. Much less actually talk to and understand it. Much more likely is them running into some fragment of a greater whole and working with it in the limited capacity a sane entity could. I prefer the idea it's either apocryphal or mythological, when one speaks of the Emperor making a 'deal' with the Chaos Gods it could be a trillion different things. It could even just refer to the fact that the Emperor is a psyker, and therefore using 'stolen' Chaos power by default, when it's like stealing water from an ocean. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 AD-B, would it be ok for you to let us know where this book falls in the chronology, or is that treading into spoiler territory? As in, will it be the most 'up to date' book yet or is it before the events of some stories? Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 AD-B, would it be ok for you to let us know where this book falls in the chronology, or is that treading into spoiler territory? As in, will it be the most 'up to date' book yet or is it before the events of some stories? Cheers Well, in Praetorian of Dorn there's a mention that the Emperor isn't home in the palace...so if I had to guess it'd be parallel with that. But then Emps has probably been making trips to the webway for a while, and who knows how time works inside of it. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 AD-B, would it be ok for you to let us know where this book falls in the chronology, or is that treading into spoiler territory? As in, will it be the most 'up to date' book yet or is it before the events of some stories? Cheers Late-ish. Up to date-ish. Everyone is on their way to Terra. After Magnus's screw-up, the Emperor could never leave the Golden Throne according to Collected Visions and various sources. It's set in the last days of the war in the webway. After this, the Custodians are allowed out and up to the Palace walls to be ready for the final fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Anyone know what custodes 'companies' and 'battalions' are called? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4558936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 So by that logic Magnus broke a whole in the webway (human bit) and The Emperor sat on the Golden Throne to keep it sealed. At that point there was a "war" which going by the above from ADB means at the conclusion of the book that war is finished and the whole in the webway is sealed. This is acceptable sounding to me as it means the critically injured E would only need to keep the Light house shining rather than hold the webway closed as well which seems like less work. The only problem is many pieces of lore state that he sits on the throne to keep the webway sealed as well. One Custodian. A few Custodians. Many many Custodites. A battalion of Custodianites. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Malcador takes the throne long enough for the Emperor to kill Horus and then turns into a pile of dust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Yes I remember. But with ADB saying the Custodians are able to go back up to the Palace we can presume the hole can be kept shut remotely. I wonder if the E can manifest himself as a psychic projection capable of combat whilst his body remains on the Throne? We know from Molech that he can leave psychic defences. I seem to remember it being some form of Golden coloured soldier that pasted the mournival up and down the cave before being "killed" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH79 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I've recently found myself pondering what punishment The Emperor actually intended for Magnus when he dispatched the VI'th to bring him back to Terra following his breaking of the palace wards. Could He of planned to force Magnus to take the Throne in His place as eternal punishment? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Wasn't the throne his inheritance all along? Magnus even realized that before long. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 It's hinted that it was for him as he was the only other one powerful enough to sit on it without being turned to dust. Although I'm not sure if it was a daemon that stated that. In which case it's all a lie. Or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I've recently found myself pondering what punishment The Emperor actually intended for Magnus when he dispatched the VI'th to bring him back to Terra following his breaking of the palace wards. Could He of planned to force Magnus to take the Throne in His place as eternal punishment? Its been alluded to that Magnus' fate was for something grander than the Great Crusade ("We had such high hopes for Magnus" - Malcador 'The Sigilite' audiodrama). I believe he may have been something akin to a gatekeeper or guardian of the webway but not necessarily confined to the Throne, afterall before he broke the phychic wards the webway was contained without anyone having to manually 'hold the door!'. As for Magnus' punishment, I dont believe the Emperor would be foolish enough to entrust a "traitorous"/disobedient son with holding the gate shut. He may have in fact have needed Magnus' help in sealing the damage he caused... but I guess we'll never know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303003-master-of-mankindon-the-horizon/page/18/#findComment-4559234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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