Legion predators squadron

[sedobren]

Since i usually don't use infantry for at tasks (unless unable to do otherwise, and usually in cc) and i really like the cheapness of the predator tank chassis, i was wondering how to fit it for AT role.

 

My first idea was this: 1 predator with machine spirit and conversion beamer (unsure about laser sponsons) and 2 predators with plasma executioner cannon (one of which has the command tank upgrade, to help infantry stay where the have to be in this "and they shall know no fear"-poor millennium).

 

what do you think?

 

my main concern is the fact that the conversion beamer works at long ranges while the plasma cannon don't. So maybe all of them with conversion beamer?

 

 

[Moonstalker]

Well, if we're talking about focusing the Predators on AT duty, then I don't think any of those setups you listed are any good at all.  The Executioner upgrade isn't about tank killing, that's for taking on heavy infantry.  I suppose it might offer some marginal increase in hull points stripped per turn over the autocannon, but nothing that would justify the cost and loss of range.  At long range, the conversion beamer is powerful, but on most standard tables it's hard to ever get the S10 large blast to hit anything.  Ranges are just too short.  It's something better saved for apoc-sized tables.

 

For AT, you just want the standard heavy 4 autocannon in the turret and the lascannon sponsons.  It's cheap and offers you good firepower for killing anything short of AV14.  Even with six lascannons in a squadron of 3 predators, taking down Land Raiders and Spartans can be a chore.

[Emperors Teeth]

At 1500pts, I'm taking two Predators with Magna melta's and Lascannon sponsons. Short of a good target of opportunity on the first turn, they'll belt down the side of the board as fast as possible to line up for some turn two close range melting. Will it work? I've no idea!

Two other units I've considered are:

3 Predators with Magna Melta's and no sponsons.

3 Predators with Autocannon, Heavy bolter sponsons & Pintle Heavy bolter. (That's 12 AC & 27 HB shots/turn )

Both units add up to bang on 330 points. It may still be better to take two Sicarans, but these fit 3 tanks in one slot for Reserves rolls purposes. A plus, in my opinion. My main opponent is Necrons, btw, otherwise I'd probably not consider the second unit at all.

[sedobren]

I worry for the magna melta short range (18" right?). Anyway since i intend to play an all out attack force (that is infantry moving ahead with tanks) and i like the idea of command tank giving a 24" leadership re-roll bubble i think i'll try this configuration.

 

What about giving all of them laser sponsons and machine spirit upgrade, while keeping the auto-cannon? this way i should be able to divide at fire from anti infantry one, what do you think?

[Hesh Kadesh]

At 1500 points, 3 Melta Predators with Lascannon Sponsons and Machine spirit tops in at 555pts.

 

Consider that another 350pts is taken up with AT LEAST on your minimum required units, that leaves you with 905pts to fit in units which can actually do something. 

 

The Melta as AT I find isn't so useful except in low points, when it can be used to just remove enemy light and medium tanks, but at sort of 1500pts when people start to take the threatening tanks like Achilles Alpha or Spartans, the Armoured Ceramite and similar come out to play, and their cost means that fringe support tanks are rarely taken due to their cost. 

 

What the melta does do, however, is provide a S8 AP1 bottom out to prevent Feel No Pain from working, and so just removes blobs on infantry - but that of course means that you've got 120pts wasted on the Lascannons. Dropping the lascannons gives you 435pts for the unit (you can even drop Machine spirit if you wish, and maybe take some Combibolters to try and keep RNGesus on your side vs Weapon Destroyed). Dropping the Machine Spirit and taking the combibolters comes in at 375pts, and is a very valid alternative option to remove infantry targets from the battlefield compared to the Typhon, both having their benefits over each other. (namely, at 1500points, you can actually take the Predators).

[Emperors Teeth]

I think, unless I'm reading you wrong, that you've got the blast melta combo messed up. The rulebook says after scatter, measure to the hole [from the vehicle] and if this is under half the weapons range, it gets the melta effect.

[sedobren]

since we are in anti tank theme: do you like the vindicator with laser destroyer array? Statistically speaking the 10 points upgrade gives an higher result chance on the penetration chart, but will penetrate less likely than the demolisher cannon (and of course it has more range) 

[Moonstalker]

I worry for the magna melta short range (18" right?). Anyway since i intend to play an all out attack force (that is infantry moving ahead with tanks) and i like the idea of command tank giving a 24" leadership re-roll bubble i think i'll try this configuration.

 

What about giving all of them laser sponsons and machine spirit upgrade, while keeping the auto-cannon? this way i should be able to divide at fire from anti infantry one, what do you think?

 

The autocannon is still anti-tank.  Aside from shooting at Land Raiders and Spartans, you're going to want those S7 shots for glancing more hull points off per turn.  I field my Predators with Machine Spirits at 2000 points, but below that I leave the Machine Spirit off.  The strength of the LC/AC predator is in it being cheap, having an AV13 front, and bringing a lot of guns.  For cheap.  Don't screw this up by spending too much on them.

 

And, if you want these to be anti-tank, don't bother with the magna-meltas.  A lot of the targets you really need that anti-tank against are going to be melta-immune anyway.  With the new damage table in seventh, scoring an explodes is harder than ever.  Your most reliable way of killing vehicles is just saturating them with glances and pens till they run out of hull points.

[sedobren]

Exactly, perhaps i really don't want my predators sitting at less than 9" from something that requires a magna melta to be torn down like a land raider with many lasers and bad cargo, oraa spartan with even more lasers and definitively worse cargo: a charge from some chainfist armed terminator can likely take down an entire vehicle squadron since they hit the rear in CC.

I've always used s7 saturation fire with gk, and aside from land raiders (i usually take care of them in CC with thunderhammer guys or dreadknights). I think i'll try an LC/AC configuration and then a shooty autocannon/heavy bolter one and see which one perform better. if really needed to i play a vindicator too (and also a whirlwind scorpius to complete my heavy support choices) so i should be covered with 13+ armor vehicles.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I think, unless I'm reading you wrong, that you've got the blast melta combo messed up. The rulebook says after scatter, measure to the hole [from the vehicle] and if this is under half the weapons range, it gets the melta effect.

Shows how often we get to use that rule then XD. That's what you get when quoting from memory folks.

[Moonstalker]

Exactly, perhaps i really don't want my predators sitting at less than 9" from something that requires a magna melta to be torn down like a land raider with many lasers and bad cargo, oraa spartan with even more lasers and definitively worse cargo: a charge from some chainfist armed terminator can likely take down an entire vehicle squadron since they hit the rear in CC.

I've always used s7 saturation fire with gk, and aside from land raiders (i usually take care of them in CC with thunderhammer guys or dreadknights). I think i'll try an LC/AC configuration and then a shooty autocannon/heavy bolter one and see which one perform better. if really needed to i play a vindicator too (and also a whirlwind scorpius to complete my heavy support choices) so i should be covered with 13+ armor vehicles.

 

From another thread:

 

 

9 HB shots @ BS4 vs MEQ

6 hits, 4 wounds, 1.333 failed armor saves, .888 failed FNP

 

2 LC shots @ BS4 vs MEQ

1.333 hits, 1.111 wounds, 1.111 failed armor saves, 1.111 failed FNP

 

If you're only fighting other legions, don't bother with the heavy bolter sponsons + heavy bolter pintle loadout.  The Lascannon sponsons are pretty much on par for marine-killing power, are only 5 points more expensive, and have anti-tank ability too.

[Sanct]

Aside from the mathhammer example being biased it depends on the type of games you play.  Smaller point games with larger amounts of mech make the heavy bolter a poor performer.  If you end up against MeQ-horde armies you'll want the extra shots, just not in the over-costed pintle mount.

 

 

EDIT: Of the one area heavy bolters are likely to perform as well, if not better,  than lascannon the example ignored several likely factors (cover saves, invulnerable saves, lack of FnP, better builds)  to support the lascannon option (as far as I read)  

Kill potential is cool and all but figuring a single lascannon has a 55% chance to kill a MeQ in the open is easy but calculating that a single heavy bolter has a 38% chance to kill 1-3 MeQ in the open is less so and only gets more awkward from there.

[Moonstalker]

Aside from the mathhammer example being biased it depends on the type of games you play.  Smaller point games with larger amounts of mech make the heavy bolter a poor performer.  If you end up against MeQ-horde armies you'll want the extra shots, just not in the over-costed pintle mount.

 

Which way do you think the example was biased?  I do my best to be fair in these things, and to always try and qualify my statements.  Where has this example gone wrong?

[Memento Of Prospero]

The problem with mathhammer is that it fails to take into account kill potential. This is not a game of flat average statistics. It is a game of chance. 9 heavy bolter shots can potentially way more than 2 lascannons ever could.

[tdemayo]

I'm currently building 3 predators with ACs and Lascannons. One of them has a swappable turret for an Executioner or Magma Melta, if I wish. As I see it, the basic AC synergies well with the lascannons for killing light to medium armor (up to 13): that's 12 autocannon shots and 6 las cannon shots. I expect them to struggle against Landraiders and Spartans, etc. The executioner cannon looks very tasty, with PoTMS. There should be plenty of infantry to target seperately. If there aren't, the plasma shots are at 7 just like the auto cannon it would replace. The mag a melta looks difficult to use, and very.specialized.

[sedobren]

The same thing i'm doing. I keep the autocannons for sub-2000 games (in 40k there are not so much land raiders after all) and replace them with executioners in 2500-3000 points games. I just worry a bit about the fact that i'm putting 175 points on an armor 13 chassis, but i plan to play then behind an infantry blob so...

By the way what do youbmean with building them? Are you actually doing the turrets yourself? Because i'd like to have some advice here (i'm using some old rhino and predator models)

[tdemayo]

I'm using the standard GW kits, with some conversions. I'm using a leman Russ executioner part for the executioner, and an extra imperial knight canon for the mag a melta. In each case I attached the gun to the base of a leftover predator gun (the triangular part that slots into the turret), and did some filling in with plasticard and green stuff.

[sedobren]

So you are still using the rectangular predator turret? i saw a guy somewhere in some forum where he used a table tennis ball to make the semi-spherical turret

[tdemayo]

I'm using the regular turret. I think the Deimos style hemisphere looks awesome, but it's beyond my ability to convert, and a bit too pricey to buy from FW compared to other items I want more. I settled for building an old school front "wedge" armor or dual panels with plasticard.

[sedobren]

I bought some 2nd edition/rogue trader era rhinos and predators, they are really cheap and look different enough to be a different pattern: I spent like 10 euros per model!

Add some plasticard to make sponsons and other armor plates and they are really perfect, i actually like them more than the FW ones because they really look like a different pattern of vehicle, instead of just a regular rhino with some plates on it.

i think i'll post some work in progress pictures as soon as i'll start working on them!

[jeremy1391]

I've had decent success using storm Raven plasma cannons.

 

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jeremy1391/C45A9C82-5841-4C7A-87DC-0304F42809E8_zpsdiplnbi6.jpg

[Nusquam]

After watching the movie Fury I've been thinking about Pred squadrons. Namely in a Reaping RoW. Some of the scenes look very DG. Line of tanks advancing into fire with infantry moving behind them for cover.

[Moonstalker]

After watching the movie Fury I've been thinking about Pred squadrons. Namely in a Reaping RoW. Some of the scenes look very DG. Line of tanks advancing into fire with infantry moving behind them for cover.

 

That's quite like how I want my army to feel - a lot of guys with rifles, a squadron of tanks, some artillery support, etc.

 

A few years ago, I had nothing good to say about Predators.  Their weak side armor left me quite bitter, I didn't think you could properly call them a tank.  But after playing World of Tanks, I had a new respect for the design and how reasonable it was to concentrate your armor in front and leave the rear and sides fairly weak, and the armor/firepower/mobility trinity that the Predator was supposed to represent.

[sedobren]

That's quite like how I want my army to feel - a lot of guys with rifles, a squadron of tanks, some artillery support, etc.

 

A few years ago, I had nothing good to say about Predators.  Their weak side armor left me quite bitter, I didn't think you could properly call them a tank.  But after playing World of Tanks, I had a new respect for the design and how reasonable it was to concentrate your armor in front and leave the rear and sides fairly weak, and the armor/firepower/mobility trinity that the Predator was supposed to represent.

 

 

The predator (at least the basic one, with no sponsons) is probably the most "reality modern" tank (well the sicaran too, maybe). i mean, the leman russ is as tall as a 2 storey building! 

 

Thats, perhaps, exactly like i'm planning to play them: a line of predators and vindicator, maybe a land raider or a spartan, followed by infantry/jump infantry

 

After watching the movie Fury I've been thinking about Pred squadrons. Namely in a Reaping RoW. Some of the scenes look very DG. Line of tanks advancing into fire with infantry moving behind them for cover.

 

probably the best thing to recreate the advancing scene from fury is load the preds with heavy bolters everywhere and obliterate those coward guards into space

 

 

to  jeremy1391

That look nicely done! did you use the lascannon mounting part to fit the plasma into the turret? i still have to figure out how to mount the plasticard tubes i'v bought into the turret.

[Moonstalker]

Conceptually, I really like the Vindicator with Lasdestroyer.  It's like the StuG to the Predator's Panzer IV.  It's just so hard to justify squeezing one in when just one takes up an entire heavy support slot.  Maybe if it could be fielded in the same squadron as the Predators.