Kibosh Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 So as far as I can tell Dark Fury Squads can't take any dedicated transports. I wanted to put them in a Darkwing or Stormeagle and have them come in from reserves cause it seemed like a reliable way to get them into assault. Alas its not meant to be unless there is something I'm missing. So what are some better tactics for making this unit viable? Best ways I have thought of is throwing a Chaplain in the unit with a void shield harness giving them boosted assault capability, fearless, AND a protection bubble at least the turn they drop in. Another is to stick them with a Vigilator to boost there cover save to a 4+. Both just seem like really expensive gimmicks to make a awesome unit viable. Ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 They only get the 5+ cover save when they Deepstrike in. A Vigilator cannot take a jump pack (afaik) and if he could, he couldn't take a cameleoline. So theres no real way to boost their innate Cover Save. An Argument could be made for them being able to ride inside a Kharybdis or a Caestus but they're still Jump Pack infantry and only the Storm Raven permits JPI from being embarked in one as per RAW. The Chaplain with Void Shield Harness would be the best; though if you could also attach a Primus Medicae for FNP that would be even better. Take Maun for an 18" no scatter Deepstrike bubble and you've got them coming in where you want. Just make sure they dont get focus fired because they have no shooting to speak of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibosh Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 They only get the 5+ cover save when they Deepstrike in. A Vigilator cannot take a jump pack (afaik) and if he could, he couldn't take a cameleoline. So theres no real way to boost their innate Cover Save. An Argument could be made for them being able to ride inside a Kharybdis or a Caestus but they're still Jump Pack infantry and only the Storm Raven permits JPI from being embarked in one as per RAW. The Chaplain with Void Shield Harness would be the best; though if you could also attach a Primus Medicae for FNP that would be even better. Take Maun for an 18" no scatter Deepstrike bubble and you've got them coming in where you want. Just make sure they dont get focus fired because they have no shooting to speak of. Actually the Vigilator comes standard with Cameleoline and can still take a Jumpack. And as far as I can tell the Dark Furies can't be mounted in any kind of Stormeagle...right? lol hope I'm wrong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Hmm ok. Weird that the Vigilator can when no other Raven Guard can.... AFAIK, Storm Eagles cant carry Jump Pack Infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Jump Infantry can go inside transports, they just count as double. Back in 5th edition it was a different case. Didn't realize it until I read the Dark Fury entry about them jumping from Darkwings and did some digging. I've had a lot of success running a Chaplain with the VSH. I recommend it. Just be sure you take out anything that can pop it and you can roll through tac blobs. Even 20 man units with Apothecaries you'll almost always end up sweeping them. One game I put Corax in with them and it was a slaughter. A Darkwing isn't a bad idea to put them in, but you'll only have room for 8 bodies. I would rather have the 3+ jink than take two more just to have them crash and burn. I wonder if they ever make a Whispercutter if it'll have a rule like "Open Frame" counts as open topped and jump infantry can take an initiative test to jump off and not crash to their dooms. I digress. The Vigilator isn't a bad idea either. 4+ cover when they come down. If you give them Talons it will help mitigate the loss of a Chaplain from Master Crafted. it would be tempting to give him the Nanyte Blaster, but only 12" range they'll just get bolted to death. Still leaning toward the Chaplain, make his Crozium an axe(fitting for XIXth fluff), take Decap Strike for PF ICs and wound on a 2+ from Furious Charge with rerolls to hit and essentially to wound from PF if you go IC hunting. Or just all around slaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Vigilator with Jump Pack = 105pt tax for +1 Cover save? He can't infiltrate, can't scout, his boltgun is useless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 He can, at least, still take Ravens Talons since theres nothing stopping him from Taking LC's and upgrading them. True, if you deepstrike them in, a JP vigilator might not be the best idea. But, if you start them on the board, I think you can still get Infiltrate/Scout pretty much guaranteeing a turn 2 charge...potentially turn 1 (pretty sure you cant even if you could). But, other than that, you'd be better served by a Chaplain with the VSH and if you have the free points, a PM with JP for FNP; maybe even a Librarian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Yep, Infiltrate and (or? AFB) Scout prevent 1st turn charges. I think the only model that can first turn charge is the Greater Brass Scorpion, and that's due to its insane move and assault (12" move, 3d6 assault) rather than special rules allowing such. And while he can take the upgrade so he's not entirely useless, that's 140pts essentially to give it +1 Cover Save. While it is still decent in CC (5 MC'd WS5 I5 S5 Shred Rending AP3 attacks), for 10pts more you can take 5 more Dark Fury; that's +20 WS4 S5 I5 Shred AP3 attacks. The thing with Rending on the claws is that they become a stop gap measure on AP3 weapons. If you have AP5 Rending, or AP- Rending, you really lose nothing by sending them into Terminators. With AP3, however, you're going to be missing out on their potential damage to just rip holes in marine infantry squads. And considering that the only reason the Vigilator was taken was to give them an improved cover save, I'd pretty much say that it's not worth it whatsoever. If I was to choose a model to put with them, it would be the Chaplain (with Axe) or the Forge Lord (paying for the Axe and taking Rad Grenades). Against Marines, it's 75% chance to hit, 75% chance to wound with the Chaplain (56.25), while it's 50% chance to hit, 88% chance to wound with the Forge Lord (44%); however the Forge Lord can ID targets with a Power Axe and Servo Arm, as well as giving the squad a use in the shooting phase if there's a nearby vehicle. A Chaplain, Jump Pack, Axe and Power Fist comes in at 125, a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades, Axe and Jump Pack is 130, so it depends on whether you're using it for character assassination, or unit blending, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 You can charge on first turn, as long as you do not go first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Don't think so. I'm AFB, but I'm fairly sure Scout says about being unable to charge in the first game turn, while infiltrate says about "in their first turn". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibosh Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 So just to clarify, neither assault squads nor Dark Fury squads can begin the game in a Stormeagle of any kind... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 They can, it's just basic transport rules. If it were 5th edition or the Eagle was a Dedicated Transport for a different squad then no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 No... Sorry. You can't put jump pack in vehicles unless it has an exception. "Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise." One thing not mentioned yet. Deep stirke near maun, then move maun (with camo cloak) into the squad the turn it comes in. Then move him out next turn. Get's you up to a 4+ or cover +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I feel like I crossed into an alternate dimension. I could have sworn it didn't specifically exclude Jump infantry. I explicitly remember reading threads about how the Stormraven rule was now useless in several forums after I read the entry on Dark Furies. Well then I guess that email I never sent about the fluff in Dark Furies entry about dropping from inside Darkwings and Storm Eagles is going to be sent after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yeah. It's a totally bummer... Although, it's mostly a game mechanic balance thing. I think you could technically put them in a cestus ram. I would have to double check the wording though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You CAN put jump pack marines, it says so in the mini crusades army list booklet!!! So yes, you can put 10 dark furies in a storm eagle, but the storm eagle must be bought with a fast attack slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You CAN put jump pack marines, it says so in the mini crusades army list booklet!!! So yes, you can put 10 dark furies in a storm eagle, but the storm eagle must be bought with a fast attack slot. I just combed over the red book and I couldn't find it. Where is it? Also the pdf for the Eagles says it allows Jump Infantry too. I just don't seem to be able to find it in the red book or book one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You CAN put jump pack marines, it says so in the mini crusades army list booklet!!! So yes, you can put 10 dark furies in a storm eagle, but the storm eagle must be bought with a fast attack slot. I just combed over the red book and I couldn't find it. Where is it? Also the pdf for the Eagles says it allows Jump Infantry too. I just don't seem to be able to find it in the red book or book one. Can confirm, the books say nothing about Jump Infantry. Checked books 1-4 + 2 Small books just in case and found no mention anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hmm how weird, then my group of 25 30k players have been doing that wrong for over half a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hmm how weird, then my group of 25 30k players have been doing that wrong for over half a year Well, if it works as technically a house rule and that no-one really minds, I don't see why you guys couldn't continue using them that way anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hmm how weird, then my group of 25 30k players have been doing that wrong for over half a year Well, if it works as technically a house rule and that no-one really minds, I don't see why you guys couldn't continue using them that way anyways. True. Between the pdf allowing it and the stories of jump troops descending from them I'm starting to think it was an oversight for books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 What pdf are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Back when the Storm Eagle came out they released it's rules. Which now that I look at it only says. "Transport Capacity: The Storm Eagle has a transport capacity of 20 models (Terminators and Jump Infantry count as two models each)" I wonder if they think they can transport Jump marines but don't realize they technically can't. I emailed them last week but they haven't gotten back to me about it. But they did respond to my more recent Delegatus email. Strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Same problem with Thunderhawk. From what I can see, there is nothing allowing it to transport bikes, or dreadnoughts or anything like that. I think it is a case of FW know how it should be played so play by those rules in their heads rather than ensuring the written rules back up what they are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Really starting to get that feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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