orzolaser125 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I always imagined the High Lords supported the church in the beginning to better control the population, but it seems in some fluff that they actually believe. Your thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Lets be very careful in this topic not to use any real-life references please. I think in the beginning, the High Lords took advantage of the various cults that sprung up and promoted their favourite to be the 'official' Ecclesiarchy - at that point, it was the Church of the Saviour Emperor - but in the ten thousand years since, it has become endemic to the Imperium to the point where every honestly believes. This is not, after all, a universe where there are no signs of divinity. The Angels of the God-Emperor exist, one per planet, and even if most people will never see one, they will at least know of them. Everyday miracles do occur. Secular law and Religious law are one and the same. With the Inquisition able to act above the High Lords, and many of them loyal to the Ecclesiarchy, living in spitting distance of the Golden Throne, it would be impossible for the modern High Lords not to Believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kierdale Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 HERESY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Danse Macabre Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I always imagined the High Lords supported the church in the beginning to better control the population, but it seems in some fluff that they actually believe. Your thoughts I'm suddenly feeling allot of heresy in this Thread... You have to remember as well though the people who do not beleive the Emperor is a God normally fall under 2 banners witha few exceptions. They are Chaos and Space Marines and the Space marines are not going to go Planet to Planet twlling people he is not a god. This would destroy a huge part of the loyalty the populace has and if he is not a god the only alternative is the Chaos Gods. As it stands though the Way the Emperor is he stands on the very Cusp of Divinity if he has not already reached it, with all he power and the way he acts and answers prayers there is allot to be said for him being a very real god indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 No, it's very much a real religion. Whether it's based on truth is entirely irrelevant. What it has is billions of people who all believe it to be true, or at least who pay lip service to its reality. This is coupled with a titanic controlling bureaucracy that manipulates the daily lives of its adherents and demands total obedience and faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I always imagined the High Lords supported the church in the beginning to better control the population, but it seems in some fluff that they actually believe. Your thoughts I'm sure some do, and others pretend... Or they have their own tolerable beliefs, such as the Lord Fabricator General of Mars doing Cult Mechanicus stuff. If we look historically at the reasons nations adopted certain religions we can see that it was often for political reasons. That being said there have been very devout rulers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 One thing to remember is that the fact of the Warp in-universe makes belief and faith mechanisms of changing reality. The Emperor may not have been a god before he was installed in the Golden Throne, but after 10,000 years of trillions of people at any given time projecting their belief, faith, and desires into the Warp, I think it's a safe to assume that the Emperor and His Warp signature have transformed into something that is functionally godlike. The old Starchild fluff suggests that the only thing holding back complete apotheosis is the Golden Throne itself because it keeps him trapped to a dead/dying body instead of allowing a total move to the Warp where His transcendence could be achieved. The HH novel Vengeful Spirit shows Horus as believing the Emperor to have gained divinity through traveling into the Warp in mortal form and resisting the temptations of the Ruinous Powers therein. That is Horus' belief, and not necessarily a truth, though. It does tie in with long standing fluff/rumour that the Emperor gained some of His knowledge or powers from making a deal with the Ruinous Powers at some point before or during the Unification war. I lean toward accepting older fluff like the Starchild theory and so on because things like the Sensei seem to be reappearing in new form (the Perpetuals.) Also, He gave His life so that all of humanity can live. Loyal Imperials can all agree on that, at least. If not a god, then at least a really swell guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orzolaser125 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thanks for the feedback, its a question I have always wanted an answer for. I would have to agree with Hellios though, I have always thought of the Imperium being ruled by a godless elite (High Lords) that used religion (the Ecclesiarchy) to keep the people under control, but there have to be some devout believers within that group, like Sebastian Thor or the Fabricator General believing in their Omnissiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I was always under the impression that Administratum and Ecclesiarchy forces did not get along all that well. More so in the early years of the Ecclesiarchy. In more recent times (by 40K standards of course) they do rely on each other to justify and validate their presense but for the first 9000 years or so, the only time they were in sync was during the Age of Apostasy. I'm no expert, tho. Anything that happened pre-M36 doesn't matter much to me I understand your point of view and religion has ALWAYS been accused of being a tool for controlling the masses. Whether that is true or not is entirely irrelevant. It is not a sham because it is exactly what it purports to be. It is faith in the Emperor (or at least acknowledgement that he is the ruler of humanity) and loyal service to the Imperium. You could claim that the Imperial True is a sham, but not the church. It is exactly what it says on the tin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Isn't the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult based on the Lectitio Divinitatus; which was, in turn, written by the most beloved and most truthful of characters? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ok, so let us examine a few things (some of which have already been said in one way or another):1. Belief makes gods in the 40k universe: Belief in the Emperor may very well have created a god or godlike structure that means that even if one assumes the high lords actually know whatever the truth may be, they very well may be believers. 2. Over time the chance of believer high lords probably increased even if only due to the widespread power of the Ecclesiarchy. 3. What is a god anyways, at least in 40k they don't seem to be truly omniscient or omnipotent, so I would argue that the fact that the entirety of the Imperium is dependent on the Astronomicon (the Emperor's warp presence) for any sort of interstellar travel makes him a god in function even if not in typical 40k form. He literally gives to the human empire all that they have, because without him, they would cease to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Isn't the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult based on the Lectitio Divinitatus; which was, in turn, written by the most beloved and most truthful of characters? No, it's not. The Lectitio Divinatus was one of the many cults that sprang up around the worship of the Emperor, however ultimately it lost out in favour of the Church of the Saviour Emperor, which originated on Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 In terms of the game, the big Emps is a god whether he wants to be or not. Without him, the imperium can't be held together as its his will that drives the astronomicon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The Church of the Savior Emperor came about after the Heresy, it didn't "beat out" the Lectitio Divinatus because it was created after the LD had been deemed heresy as Lorgar turned to Chaos. A cult based around the LD did however continue to exist underground, and almost certainly was the root of the CotSE and then Ecclesiarchy, which were just rebrandings of the same ideas now that the Emperor himself was too dead to oppose them. The HH novels will bear this out further of course, but the writing is on the wall, Lorgar created the idea of an Imperial religion, it's one of the great ironies that makes the setting so grimdark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess it depends on who we ask. From the perspective of the rank-and-file, the populous, no: it's legit. The Big E really exists, really walked around, really is visible across the cosmos within the Warp, and is a one man bastion against the tides of Chaos that wish to consume humanity. He was a literal walking god that attempted to use his super powers to unite all of mankind, and the Ecclesiarchy carries on his mission by righteously enforcing worship of the Emperor. From the perspective of the Space Marines, it's a convenient, sensible, and necessary illusion: most chapters don't see the Big E as a 'god' but as the pinnacle of humanity, the primarchs his greatest creations (well, half of them anyway), and the marines themselves as his living instrument of protecting the Imperium from its greatest threats, the primary one being heresy. Heresy's not just a denial of the Emperor's divinity and perfection, but a denial of order and authority, a shunning of the (at times shady) Imperial elements who are in control. From the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy, they're definitely right and the Big E is the holiest among the holy. From the perspective of the Emperor, he'd be pretty angry. His entire campaign pre-Heresy was to spread and enforce the Imperial Truth: the universal rejection of religion and embracing of science; and of using science as the foundation for a unified civilization. He died and now we get the Imperial Cult, which is the universal embracing of this one true religion. Of which there are many, many, many minor variations on with the Big E being the central figure. This is the great tragedy of the Emperor's efforts, and the one thing that I like most about 40k; it's very darkly poetic. The Emperor wished to stop all worship...and now everybody worships him. That's got Greek Tragedy written all over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orzolaser125 Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Speaking of the Astartes, this brings me to another question of mine: wouldn't the Inquisition hold true to the imperial truth like the Space Marines? The Inquisition was founded on the orders of the Emperor and is a mysterious organization above the others and outside of it, similar to the astartes in a way. The Ordo Malleus's archives have an accurate recollection of the Horus Heresy (look up Ordo Malleus on Lexicanum) and before, so wouldn't they of all people continue to hold on to the Emperor's truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The Inquisition is made of (supposedly) extraordinary individuals from many differing worlds and backgrounds. To expect such a diverse range of agents to adhere to what the Ecclesiarchy says is true (which even that organisation can disagree with itself over) limits the Inquisition from what it's supposed to do - protect the Imperium from the enemies within, without and beyond. The Inquisition will suspect anyone (including other Inquisitors), rightly or wrongly, based on what each individual thinks is the correct course of action. Some will be more secular than others, some will be more zealous. I highly doubt they will broadly agree on theology, let alone a maxim thousands of years out of date. Now, just because the Ordo Malleus has records of the events of the Horus Heresy, it does not mean that every Inquisitor will have looked at them, or indeed that there is other relevant (or salient) data - the Lexicanum entry does not elucidate further than saying "the events of the Horus Heresy". It also does not mean that the Ordo Malleus would remember enough of the concept of the Imperial Truth to attempt to enforce it upon their fellows. So I think alluding that these archives are a good indicator of who should be sticking to the Imperial Truth is probably a mistake. Besides, ten thousand years have passed since the time of the Imperial Truth. Ten thousand years is a vast amount of time. Humanity has gone from being mere hunter gatherers to going to the moon in the course of that time. There is much we have learned and I wager there has been much we have forgotten (the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, anyone?). I reckon it would be likewise for the Imperium, although less with the learning. ;) Btw, try not to treat wikis as a good source of information. They might be good enough for certain purposes but try to use primary sources of information (what a wiki like Lexicanum will term as a 'Source'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Considering that the Ecclesiarchy can have a Saint who died a few thousand years ago suddenly pop up in the middle of a "present day" Crusade chopping Baneblades in half and beheading Chaos Lords, I think we can say "No, they are in fact not a sham religion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The citations to the two articles I linked there are all Black Library publications; looks okay to me, sir. I have seen some really dodgy non-sources used as "citations" on that site, for sure...but not those two. The weight of Ten. Thousand. Years. can't be underestimated. Not only have we gone from caves to orbit in that time span, but consider just how far we've come in the past two decades. There were periods of time during 10k to 20k (in the Grim Dark mythos) where technology took even larger leaps and bounds thanks to self-modifying (and, for a time, benevolent) AI, an intense focus on science and tech progress, and a staggering population, if star-faring and not well unified. There were also, you know, some problems. There's more useful stuff buried under the surface of Mars than a billion-billion-billion modern day New York Cities and hadron colliders. And it needs to stay buried. So it won't kill us. Anyway, Olis is spot on. The Inquisition isn't the only large, empowered and disparate group here. The Space Marines are only unified in their mission: not really in their motivations. Each chapter has its own "chapter cult" where they have their own ancient micro-religions which can deviate wildly from the Imperial Dogma. The Big E's not always a central figure for their weird rituals either; their Primarch or ancient super-space marines take the limelight for some chapters. Ad Mech does worship the Big E...but as the Omnissiah, which isn't a "god" but a prophet-god-messiah-thingy with a relationship to the "Machine Spirit."Recall that the "Machine Spirit" is a catch-all superstition that covers both fragment AIs and "ghosts in the machine". I don't know what the Navigator Guild worships, if anything, but they're some massively ugly mutants. Now, pick a hive world. Any hive world. And let's say your choice of hive world all uniformly decides that they're going to worship the sun in their solar system and they call it Sun-Dude and all stay outside to get sunburns all the time because that's how Sun-Dude shows love. And they stop going to Imperial Church. What do you think will happen? Well, one of the aforementioned Imperial Elements will come and take care of the problem: there are two roads here, which the Ecclesiarchy is into using. Road 1: convince the population that the sun is the Emperor. Road 2: kill them all. Okay. So, why doesn't the Ecclesiarchy take this fight to the Space Marines? Or Ad Mech? What is this? "Sanctioned heresy?" Yes. It's because in-fighting at that magnitude would basically hand the war to the enemies of the Imperium. It's because there are ancient pacts between these ancient organizations that keep them mostly civil. It's because they're all cogs in this giant and barely functional bucket-of-bolts, and by this bucket-of-bolts is the Emperor's holy mission kept alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Danse Macabre Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Nothing quite like that thar Sanctioned Heresy. ;) You have to remember as well The Chapters have always kept true to the Emperors teachings, likly why is is so common to see traitors refer to the Emperor as a false God because in their teaching which have been handed down he is not a god and they know it, they just play allong for the populace. In matters of the Machine god though, thats a very vague thing, some of them beleive because of the Emperors abilities he was somehow related to this as the god himself or some thing else but none the less divine. Either way though with the technology of the age realying on the Machine Spirit it begs to differ that each Machine has a semi capable AI which thinks for itself in some minor way where as those who could do everything for themselves the Emperor branded as Heresy as it would become a threat. Things like this make me wonder if they would ever progress the time line like they have Fantasy after the HH is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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