Grey Knights Army - need advice.

[Tenebris]

Greetings. Recently while I was packing for a friendly game at my club I have noticed that I carry three bags, a pouch and a tablet just to play my CSM with Daemons Allies. Good when I can prepare but bad when the opportunity arises for a game on the fly, which happens a lot of time and I find myself unprepared for it.

 

The idea is to start a secondary army, an elite and fluffy army which fits in a smaller model case and has the necessary tools to play the standard games up to 1850 points. 

 

Now the Grey Knights fit this bill greatly. They are a fluffy, elite force, which has the three things I like most, terminators, psykers, scary fluff. My initial idea is to create a basic detachment of the Grey Knights paired with a Knight Errant and a tiny Inquisitor squad (Inq+ few henchmen) for the fluffiness of it. 

 

Now onto the real question. I am familiar how the Grey Knights play but I am not familiar on how they should be played in the 7th edition with the new book. I come before you asking which are the must haves and which are the no no's for the list and how to make it work.

 

Now I know that this is not exactly going to cut me a budget deal but if you can manage to keep the eurs in my wallet and the army effective I will love you for that. The Knight Errant is of no concern, I already own one but I am unfamiliar with the Inquisitors and the new Grey Knights options.

 

What I seek is a terminator heavy army, with a low model count, reliable in all the four phases of the game, relatively balanced and fluffy if possible. I am considering to buy Draigo and a Terminator Librarian for starters, following that I need your advice on how to built a working GK army. Be mindful of the Inquisitor and the Knight Errant. 

 

Thanks

[Quozzo]

If you want a low model fluffy elite army then no-one does like the GK, but if you want less models for less baggage then the Knight Titan would probably take up just as much room as the IG/AM. Never-the-less GK...

PAGK - With no more assault psycannons that these guys can use at full range (salvo) there is no point in taking them, especially since they no longer have psybolts to boots their storm bolter fire either. If you're looking for a squad to eradicate annoying horde armies then Purifiers are the only PAGK that are worth it, due to their two special wepaons they can bring per 5 and due to cleansing flame. For anything else you want Terminators.

GKT - They are our (second) best choice. They have relentless making the psycannons a viable choice, even if it costs 5 points more than their PAGK counterparts, with the Nemesis Strike Force detachment they can come in turn one too. With you're inquisitor they can use the servo skulls to reduce their scatter distance. Quite a good combination really. cheaper than other terminators, except SW, they are arguably the best. The Inquisitor would probably be best if you upgrade him/her? to use terminator armour, NDHammer and a psycannon (assuming you mean OM inquisitor)

Nemesis Dreadknight - Better than terminators in almost every conceivable way. These guys dominate the battlefield and cause your opponents to rage quit. fielding 2 or less in any list is handicapping yourself, but fielding more than 2 is considered power gaming They compliment the mandatory terminators very well, because they can bring more weaponry and because they can shunt, a 30" move that prevents it from assaulting but is immune from interceptor. Any attached librarians on the deepstriking terminators could then target the NDK too, boltering their already formidable firepower.

Not used Knight Titans before so I cant really comment on them. I would imagine they would be an OP dreadknight though.

Draigo isn't very good with our codex. Sure he can teleport to any part of the map but you can't assault afterwards, so DevCents are the optimal unit for him to ferry around. Paladins are expensive and although 8 psycannon shot is reasonable, it will cost in excess of 550 points + Draigo to field it. He is good at tanking shots, but allies can do it cheaper. His AP2 on initiative (5) cannot be overstated, it rocks, but expensive, Emperors Champ can do it too, if BT even work with psykers now lol and at 100 points cheaper (although you do need to challenge with the EC)

[jeffersonian000]

I have to respectfully disagree with Quozzo on several points.

 

GK Interceptor Squads are a viable PAGK option, due to being vastly more mobile than Purifiers. Strikes have their place as our cheapest Troop choice, despite being over-costed and under-performing. Purgators are a waste of a Heavy slot.

 

Draigo is awesome. He is worth the points every time. Guaranteed GoI, our only Storm Shield, our only Eternal Warrior. Pump him up on some fine-ass-warp-dust, and he will shift the paradigm of your game.

 

Also, what was not mentioned, is the required GK Librarian, our hands down best HQ choice in the codex. Go PML3, make him or a DK your Warlord, and hide him in a unit of GKT.

 

On Knight-Titans, the Errant is a great addition to any GK army, acting as a super-DK toting a weapon we need desperately (large Melta blast, ftw!).

 

On Inquisitors, TDA with Psycan, Skulls, and Prescience is the most common "buffer" build.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd get the following to start with:

 

2x Dreadknight boxes

2x Terminator boxes

2x Strike squad boxes

1x Aegis Line box

 

That will get you started. After you've built and played with that in 1500 or smaller games, for 1850 I'd expand with;

 

1-2x Dreadknight boxes (seriously, these guys make us viable, and you'll never have enough of them)

1-2x Terminator boxes (20 is ideal, but your list might not need that many)

1x Raven (you'll never have the points for multiples)

 

Note that all our HQ's can be made using standard Terminator bits, no need to shell out for character models. Except Draigo of course. 

 

 

For Inquisition, TDA Inquisitor with hammer+psycannon and 3x servo-skulls is best. Up him to Mastery 1 as well, an extra Divination psyker that cheap is never a bad thing. Don't bother with Henchmen, they don't really function in an edition where Marines barely last more than a single turn of Shooting. 

[Quozzo]

The thing about interceptors is they are overshadowed by the Nemesis Dreadknight, can shunt, can take a better incinerator, better psycannon (that works after shtunting) or better psilencer, can take two of those weapons mentioned, have AP2 at initiative, a 2+ save and toughness 6. I would only take the interceptor for fluffy lists as they're not even ObSec (troops). If you're only bound to one detachment then they are great support for dreadknights but other than that they are substandard compared to Dreadknights or terminators which can deeps trike turn one (possibly). But as always, opinions differ. If you're wanting a terminator force then dreadknights fit that perfectly too, as they are piloted by a terminator, hence the baby carrier meme going around.

 

Draigo is good at tanking shots, but any librarian can take a SS (except GK of course) who can also buff the unit. Draigo is also good in melee with AP2 at init but cant assault after using Gate, which is best used in shooty squads which shouldnt be assaulting. You could use Gate at the start of the turn to teleport some meleers up the table, but besides purifiers, everything else would benefit from Rites of Battle from our Nemesis Strike Force. Brother-Captains are a very good substitute and are ~100 points less. They can take the Curaiss relic for greater survivability or the Soul Glaive for extra pain.

 

GK Librarians are our staple HQ. I forgot to mention that, thanks jeffersonian000. Apart from being able to manifest Sanctic powers without perilsing on any double, they can be upgraded to PML3 to select 3 powers. They can also equip a Relic which allows them to roll again on the Sanctic table, but rolling on any other will lose you the primaris. They can't take storm shields though XD, just roll for sanctuary and let the terminators tank them.

[Tenebris]

Thanks for the good advice. So considering the above here is what I think I might get into. 

 

HQ: Librarian

Troops: 2x 10 Terminators

Fast Attack: Stormraven

Heavy Support: 2x Dreadknight

 

Knight Errant

 

Inquisitor with Terminator Armor and Divination + Servo Skulls

 

Said that it does not look a big investment which I kinda like it. Sure time to shuffle a bit the net but I think it is manageable. My question is how should I gear the above units and what should I do with the spare points. 

[jeffersonian000]

Thanks for the good advice. So considering the above here is what I think I might get into.

 

HQ: Librarian

Troops: 2x 10 Terminators

Fast Attack: Stormraven

Heavy Support: 2x Dreadknight

 

Knight Errant

 

Inquisitor with Terminator Armor and Divination + Servo Skulls

 

Said that it does not look a big investment which I kinda like it. Sure time to shuffle a bit the net but I think it is manageable. My question is how should I gear the above units and what should I do with the spare points.

That right there is a solid list. I like, very much.

 

Max Psycannons on the GKT, 2 Hammers per 5 models, Falvhions on the rest. The Libby I like to go with Staff, Stormbolter, Liber, snd PML3.

 

DKs get Personal Teleporter, H Psycannon, and either a H Incineratir or Gatling Psilencer, and either a Sword or a Hammer.

 

The Ravens are best now with Multi Melta and Lascannons, for tank hunting and dogfighting (although I'm liking the Missile Launcher and Lascans, but its expensive).

 

SJ

[Quozzo]

Troops: 2x 10 Terminators

The Nemesis Strike Force Detachment only has one troop mandatory requirement. Take two if you have the points, but not enough for another detachment.

 

Sound advice, except I prefer 1 Hammer per 5 models, and Assault Cannons instead of Lascannons on my 'Ravens, but it will vary depending on the meta.

 

Shunt the dreadknights up the table turn one, roll reserves for everything and lay waste to their army as most of yours comes in. As I've said, attach the librarian and inquisitor to the terminator(s) and when they deep strike and the dreadknights shunt, you should be in range to buff them too.

[Tenebris]

So I have made a list, which is both how I wish to play the Grey Knights and it would function as a "to buy" list.

 

LoW: 

 

Lord Kaldor Draigo

 

HQ: 

 

Librarian - Epistolary Mikail Zarno Alberon

- ML 3

- Stormbolter

- Liber 

 

Troops:

 

Terminator Squad - Squad Arcadius "The Glaives of the Dead"

- 2x Hammer

- 6x Falchion

- 2x Psycannon

 

Fast Attack:

 

Stormraven - Wings of Sacramenta

- Multimelta

- Lascannons

 

Heavy Support:

 

Nemesis Dreadknight - Tower of Purity

- Teleporter

- Hammer

- Psycannon

- Psilencer

 

Nemesis Dreadknight - Pillar of Judgement

- Teleporter

- Sword

- Psycannon

- Incinerator

 

Allied detachment:

 

Imperial Knight Errant - Duke Sevastian Endaru Helasian IV of Srebronum, designated as "Freeblade Argentium"

 

Total: 1849

 

I think it is a well rounded list, and at the end I have opted for Draigo instead of some Inquisitor. In my eyes he is the beatstick which stays in front of my Terminators, tanks the wounds with this 3++ and does the heavy lifting in melee. Everything bar the Knight can come from the reserve and I think with some proper placement this list can bring out the hurt. 

 

My main point of controversy is the Stormraven but in such a list and with the nowadays meta a capable AA flyer is mandatory. 

 

 

Background:

 

Epistolary Alberon and his Strike Team were responsible for the purge of Srebronum where they have managed to banish the daemons afflicting the Knight House Helasain and in return "Freeblade Argentium" pledged his allegiance to Chapter 666. Currently the Epistolary leads a scouring of several worlds close to the Eye of Terror and secretly follows the last sightings of Lord Draigo with the hope to return him to the Chapter. 

 

Looks:

 

I plan to paint the Knight with Abaddon Black and have him have the gold trim on the armor, Black Legion style (since I need him for both my armies). As a tie in color I would like to paint the cloth on the Grey Knights in black, using it as a spot color. The "fluff" reason for that is that the Strike Team will have the double role of "Gravekeepers" patrolling the ancient GK shrines and checking their entombed brethren. Consider them a "mortuary detail" within their brotherhood. 

[jeffersonian000]

You have recreated one of my favorite 1850pt lists. Enjoy, its a blast to play!

 

SJ

[Tenebris]

Good to hear that.

 

Another request. Can you point me to the Black Library books about the Grey Knights. Thanks. 

[jeffersonian000]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302747-favourite-grey-knights-novels/?do=findComment&comment=3945296

 

SJ

[Quozzo]

I see you've gone for a mix a weapons on the Dreadknights, good choice if you don't know which opponent you'll be facing. I've always liked storm ravens since they were just a counts-as skimmer too, now that nealy nothing can hit them makes them so much better imo.

 

I can't help but feel Draigo is out of place and overcosted though. A dreadknight gets AP2 at initiative and would be the best choice to assault anything that the weapons didn't obliterate. Terminators sort of clean up after them and possibly go for objectives. Brother-Captain Stern is good with Sanctuary (making his Iron Halo have a 3++) and hammerhand to buff himself and his terminators. If you can't find a use the for the points though then Draigo is obviously better than Stern.

[Tenebris]

Oh, I find it proper to show from where the idea came. 

 

http://shrani.si/f/3l/Mn/nWcSejy/1/greyknightvschaostermina.jpg

[Quozzo]

Do inquisitors still get the cool array of grenades, Rad grenades I think they were called. The ones that reduce the opponents strength by one so anything with hammerhand active will probably ID it without the need for Force (making hammerhand more likely to wound). Would definitely be beneficial.

 

I also don't know of a novel/book that has Grey Knights fighting Chaos Space Marines. Would be a cook matchup I think, the power of chaos against the power of the Emperor. Both bestowed in a Space Marine pitted against one another.

[Tenebris]

On the Italian forums I have posted the same list and the comments were the following. Falchions are not needed, the Stormraven is to expensive for the AA option and Draigo is at best an optional. The member suggested me to invest in Interceptors or in an additional Terminator or Strike Squad with more Psycannons.

 

Now I see the merit of some comments, especially on the Draigo question but what about the Stormraven. What else should I include to cover the AA without needing further ally slots (my club has the limit of 2 "forces" primary and allied, or two formations, or two detachments...).  

[ChaoticEric]

The effectiveness of falchions (like so much else) depends on what you're facing and how you're playing them. If you plan on using hammerhand on the squads they turn into outright monsters with falchions. If you're not planning on using hammerhand on them you might as well go with halberds or leave them as is to save points. Personally I like falchions because with ws4 they never seem to land enough hits with only their base attacks to make a real dent in whatever elite unit they usually end up fighting. With falchions and hammerhand they tend to land 1.5 hits per model (when not getting the charge) and 1.25 wounds when wounding on 2+. Also the additional dice add a certain measure of improved reliability to the fight. With only two attacks it translates to 1 hit and 0.83 wounds per model. As 1.25 is 50% more than 0.83 I usually consider those 4p a worthwhile investment to increase their CC efficiency.

 

If you're expecting to get the charge that extra attack is "only" worth 33% extra wounds.

[jeffersonian000]

Falchions math out to be the better option to arm our guys with. While the +1 Str from Halberds seems nice at first glance, the +1 Attack has a bigger effect on the game. With or without Hammerhand, Falchions win over Halberds. Swords win over both if cost is a thing. Hammers are required at a minimum of 1 per 5 models, although 2 per 5 on TDA is preferred depending on local meta.

 

Stormravens are either a great option, or a waste of points, depending on local meta. In my area, I've stopped taking them at all. In general, two is better than one, and one is a huge target.

 

Draigo is awesome. He is a transport that can tank hits while dealing out the pain in CC. If you are not using him as a transport that can tank wounds, you are better off not taking him. Draigo is the new Mordrak, only more survivable, more flexible, and more maneuverable. I take him almost everytime, because he is that good.

 

Interceptors are, in my opinion, the only PA unit worth fielding in today's GK army. Yes, people preach the Cleansing virtue of the Purifier, but as long as Purifiers require a transport or building to be useful beyond being a Warp Charge battery, they aren't as useful as Interceptors. Interceptors are mini-DreadKnights that can be anywhere you need them. take them in units of 10 with max Incinerators, 2 Hammers, and combat squad them into two equal squads, then go hunting!

 

SJ

[ChaoticEric]

I tend to use interceptors more as mobile incinerators as they are a bit lack lustre in assault in my opinion. I can never seem to make enough damage with them with one attack base, ws4 and s4. It's a huge difference to purifiers but unfortunately the purifiers pay a premium in points and lost mobility. If you have a delivery platform for purifiers they can be monsters but on the other hand, for a relatively modest premium you can get terminators instead...

[Brom MKIV]

On the Italian forums I have posted the same list and the comments were the following. Falchions are not needed, the Stormraven is to expensive for the AA option and Draigo is at best an optional. The member suggested me to invest in Interceptors or in an additional Terminator or Strike Squad with more Psycannons.

 

Now I see the merit of some comments, especially on the Draigo question but what about the Stormraven. What else should I include to cover the AA without needing further ally slots (my club has the limit of 2 "forces" primary and allied, or two formations, or two detachments...).  

 

First I like your list quite a bit. I think for a predominantly GK force its solid.

 

Its true that falchions aren't 'needed' but they are welcomed. I have personally been impressed with mine but its hard to evaluate something like this in a vacuum and much depends on the purpose you intend for your squad(s). What I will say is that those single hammers have rarely been a factor in the units success or not. I now tend to forgo them except in special circumstances. Otherwise my ap2 comes from ICs and NDKs. Just something to consider. 

 

Draigo otoh is pretty easy to evaluate.. hes 4 hammernators glued to a ml2 psyker slash transport that can join a squad. If your ever going to take another GKT squad beyond compulsory you need to stop and consider why that squad isnt draigo IMO. He solves problems that just adding more terminators wont. 

 

On AA unfortunately your down to raven or prescienced psycans man. But whats wrong with a stormraven? Compare its durability and firepower to a GKT unit and it comes out ahead in both for comparable cost. Obviously its not gonna hang with pentyrants or cronair etc but it will hang with most 0-2 flyer lists just fine. Price you pay to include an IK. 2 is better than 1 and you could squeeze the second but it would cost you draigo or a GKT squad leaving your board presence a little lite to start.

[jeffersonian000]

On AA unfortunately your down to raven or prescienced psycans man. But whats wrong with a stormraven? Compare its durability and firepower to a GKT unit and it comes out ahead in both for comparable cost. Obviously its not gonna hang with pentyrants or cronair etc but it will hang with most 0-2 flyer lists just fine. Price you pay to include an IK. 2 is better than 1 and you could squeeze the second but it would cost you draigo or a GKT squad leaving your board presence a little lite to start.

That's why I advocate for either two, the Stormwing formation, or none at all.

 

SJ

[tomsev]

Stupid question where is the stormwing formation ??

[Brom MKIV]

Its a dataslate. If your going that route though why not tyranic war vets and have the option of starting 6 infiltrating talons on the board?

[tomsev]

Ooooohhhh really? What do you have to take to unlock them?

[Quozzo]

A formation, nothing really, just what's in the formation (1 chaplain Cassius, 1+ Tyrannic War Veteran Squads, 0-6 Stormtalons with infiltrate)